Linux-Advocacy Digest #999, Volume #27 Wed, 26 Jul 00 20:13:08 EDT
Contents:
Re: If Microsoft starts renting apts (was: If Microsoft starts renting
apps) (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why use Linux? ("John W. Stevens")
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Chad Irby)
Re: Star Office to be open sourced (Mike Stump)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.fan.bill-gates,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: If Microsoft starts renting apts (was: If Microsoft starts
renting apps)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:10:14 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Clell A. Harmon in alt.fan.bill-gates;
[...]
> OOOH Aaron, you get SO bitchy when you get caught lying...
>You 'wrote' an old joke Aaron, a very old joke. I don't have a
>reference for the first time 'why did the chicken cross the road', but
>you sure as hell didn't write that either you lying whore.
Far it be for me to go to the mat for Aaron Kulkis, but you seem to be
full of shit. Derivation is often the basis for written humor.
To wit, my recent response (slightly edited after proofreading) on
alt.destroy.microsoft to another reposting of the ancient "DOS-fish"
story, which promotes the false idea that Microsoft's dominance is the
result of squabbling within the industry:
>Quoting Geron from alt.destroy.microsoft; Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:05:45
>> How It Came To Pass...
>
>This thing was tired and old a decade ago. And it doesn't have near the
>entertainment value it did before we learned that the market had nothing
>to do with the continuing role of DOS or the incomprehensibly repetitive
>anti-competitive practices that apparently Microsoft has always engaged
>in. A new legend, for a new time, then:
>
>
>Once upon a time, there was a great and powerful ogre, a most evil
>monster, and his name was Bill Gates. No, let's start that again....
>
>Once upon a time, there was an evil ogre who lived near the Pea Sea. He
>was a very greedy and jealous ogre, and he terrorized the gentle people
>who lived by the Pea Sea. When the ogre took up residence in a cave
>along the path which everyone used to go from the village to the sea,
>the people were fearful, and complained to their god, Usgov, saying "How
>can we get to the sea, for we need to fish its waters to eat, and the
>ogre controls the only path." So Usgov, being a wise and fair god,
>called the ogre, and representatives of the villagers together, and bid
>them "tell me of the fact of the situation, that I might pass judgment."
>
>And so it was that the people told Usgov of the ogre's loud bellowing
>and threats when they approach the Pea Sea, demanding that the people
>owe him for the right to gather food from the Pea Sea. And Usgov saw
>that this was so, and asked the ogre why he should not be stricken down.
>And the ogre said "But I have done nothing wrong. My bellows and
>threats are meaningless, as the villagers can easily get to the Pea Sea
>without using the path; they can climb over the mountains."
>
>And Usgov saw that this was so, and asked the villagers why they don't
>climb over the mountains, or build another path. "It would take many
>weeks for us to get to the Pea Sea if we had to climb over the
>mountains. We want to use the path." The ogre yelled, "But it is my
>path!". Now, Usgov was a great and powerful god, but he was not
>all-knowing and all-seeing, as some gods are. In fact, to prove how
>wise and just he was to his worshipers, Usgov did even blindfold himself
>and stop up his ears with wax, so that he might not be distracted when
>awaiting petitioners. Even more, he had been sleeping for decades
>before we was aroused by the clamor of the villagers, and so knew not
>when or how the path through the hills from the village to the Pea Sea
>was made. So he told the villagers "You may use the path or not use the
>path, but the ogre lives on the path, and may do there as he pleases.
>Is there any other complaint you have?"
>
>And the villagers cried "Yes! The ogre does many evil things, because
>he is greedy and jealous. Look, see all of the people who are weak from
>hunger, because they cannot easily fish in the Pea Sea because of the
>ogre's horrid threats and traps." And the god said "But what precisely
>has the ogre done? I am a wise and just god, and so I will only pass
>judgement on specific actions the ogre has taken, for it is not my place
>to simply call him mean and horrid and smite him down. For if I can do
>it to him, then, yea verily, I might then do it to each of you."
>
>And so the representatives of the villagers reported, "The ogre does
>demand that we buy fish from him." When Usgov asked the ogre about
>this, the ogre said "I do ask for payment for fish delivered, but if the
>villagers don't want to pay me, then they can fish for themselves." The
>god who would judge these actions asked the villagers if this was true.
>The villagers responded "Yes, great Usgov, but the other fish in the Pea
>Sea are hard to catch, and we have grown use to the Dosfish. But no
>villager can catch a Dosfish themselves, for the ogre will then beat and
>drown that person until they are dead." When asked about this, the ogre
>claimed "I have All Rights Reserved on Dosfish, great Usgov, by your
>decree; no villager may catch one without my consent, and I do not grant
>it to any. It is my choice." And once again, Usgov tried so hard to be
>fair that he blinded himself, and said "Dosfish may only be taken from
>the Pea Sea by the ogre." But the ogre was not satisfied with this, and
>said "If the villagers should want to eat any other kind of fish which I
>can provide for them, I should be able to catch and sell it." The
>villagers, being skeptical of the ogre's intentions, demanded that each
>kind of fish is different, but are often hard to tell apart. "If you
>say yes to the ogre, then he will be able to call any fish a Dosfish, or
>call a Dosfish anything else, and we would be lost!" But Usgov had
>grown weary of this audience, and the hour grew late. And so, he
>pronounced a great Decree of Consent, and then abandoned the villagers
>to the fate of the ogre, sure, because they were a strong and hearty
>people, that they would eventually either outwit or kill the ogre and
>live for many years by the Pea Sea.
>
>And so the people went on about their lives, and walked the ogre's path
>to the Pea Sea, and while some few caught their own fish, most would pay
>the ogre for his Dosfish, even though the Dosfish was among the ugliest
>and least tasty of fish in the sea. The villagers bought them because
>they were used to the taste, and didn't mind it so much, and never had
>to look at it until it was cooked and on their plate, with all the ugly
>parts hidden from their sight. For the ogre sold his Dosfish very
>cheaply, charging only one quarter of the price that the villager who
>made fishing equipment charged for a rod and nets.
>
>Now, the villagers who used the path, but caught their own fish, soon
>found that it became more and more difficult to carry their fish home.
>The ogre, in secret, had been narrowing the cliffs which bound the path,
>even until it was too narrow to get anything but the small and ugly
>Dosfish through. And of those villagers who did not use the path,
>preferring to climb over the hills, for it was good exercise, some would
>still buy the ogre's Dosfish.
>
>But soon the villagers became dissatisfied, and wanted something other
>than Dosfish, for it was an ugly and bad-tasting creature. "I will
>catch a new kind of fish," said the ogre, hiding his greed and jealousy
>behind a smile of customer service. And the ogre caught a different
>kind of fish, one which was tasty and pretty to behold. It was called
>an Applefish, although it did not resemble a fruit, and was actually a
>mammal which had returned to the sea rather than a true fish. And from
>sticks and bark, he molded an effigy of the Applefish, and called it
>Chicago, because it sounded like a cool code-name. Taking a Dosfish,
>and wrapping it in the Chicago, he held it before the villagers and
>cried, "Behold! For I have created a better fish than the Dosfish! And
>I shall call it Winfish."
>
>The leprechaun who owned the rights to the Applefish, called a fish even
>though it was not, complained to Usgov that the Winfish was a copy of
>his Applefish, and so must the ogre make amends. But the ogre easily
>bested him, saying, "It might look like an Applefish and feel like an
>Applefish, but it tastes not at all like an Applefish, and so is mine."
>And even then the villagers complained again to their god, saying, "It
>might look like an Applefish, and be called a Winfish, but it is a
>Dosfish, and so the ogre is trying to cheat us." The ogre replied "But
>this is a different fish, and is not a Dosfish, and anyone looking at it
>or tasting it (for the bark the ogre had used was sweet, and did taste
>something like Applefish) does know this to be true."
>
>And again Usgov put on his blindfold, and held out his hand, and could
>tell the difference between a Dosfish and a Winfish, and again
>proclaimed that the ogre could sell fish has he pleased, even while he
>controlled the path to the sea. And then one day, the ogre did smite a
>villager with a large rock, and killed him, almost. And the villagers
>took the ogre once again before Usgov, and told him of what they had
>seen. And the ogre said "But he had captured a Dosfish, and was taking
>it back to the village, and it is within my power to smite any who do
>this." And the villagers pointed out "That is not a Dosfish, but a
>Doctorfish. And although a Doctorfish might look like a Dosfish, it is
>not a Dosfish." And the ogre replied "But since it looks like a
>Dosfish, it could be made into a Winfish, and both the Dosfish and the
>Winfish are mine, and so if a villager is smitten for catching
>Doctorfish, this is their problem." And Usgov, as usual and befitting a
>just deity, had his ears plugged up with wax, and so could not hear the
>ogre's lies, and could only console the victim but would offer no
>compensation for his injuries.
>
>Time passed yet again, though not long of it, and the ogre's reign was
>mighty. The Dosfish, and the Winfish which was the Dosfish with bits of
>bark and sticks to make it look like an Applefish (bits which would
>frequently fall off, as the ogre was not a fine craftsman, though he
>would always strongly deny that it was a Dosfish under the decorations,
>and would insist that the similarity between a Dosfish and Winfish was
>coincidence) was small and had little nutrition even when you were
>used to the taste. The villagers had to make many trips to the Pea Sea
>to buy the Dosfish from the ogre, and they grew weaker all the while,
>until the thought of having to climb over the hills to get to the Pea
>Sea caused them to swoon and cry in fear. "Oh great ogre," they cried,
>"please give us the Winfish; we will pay any price." And the ogre began
>to plan his greatest plot. He would throw many herbs and minerals into
>the lake which would feed the Dosfish, and cause them to grow strong and
>reproduce in plenty, even while it poisoned the other fish in the Pea
>Sea, and would darken the waters, preventing boy fish from finding girl
>fish, and thus reduce their numbers. For being able to block the path
>to the Pea Sea so that others could not fish easily was not enough to
>satisfy the greed and jealousy of the ogre. He wished to ensure that
>the only fish which lived in the Pea Sea were Winfish, which were
>Dosfish.
>
>Now at this time a great thing did happen. Quietly, without the
>thundering proclamations of the ogre, and off to the side of the village
>near the mountains, where few people would ever go, there lived a quite
>but studious fisherman. This fisherman had long ago learned how to
>climb over the mountains to reach the Pea Sea without treading the
>ogre's path, and found it very easy to do. But over time, even this
>seemed to be too much effort, for even as the Pea Sea got larger and the
>trip through the hills shorter, the fish in the Pea Sea were becoming
>less nourishing and attractive. And so a great hero was born, when the
>humble fisherman, who's name was Linus, decided to dig a new path
>through the mountains. And this he did. And when he got to the shores
>of the Pea Sea, and saw the great number of Winfish which swam in its
>waters, he did not despair, but instead threw into its waters a new kind
>of fish which he had nurtured in his bathtub, and he called it a
>Nixfish. For Linus had visited other seas besides the Pea Sea, and had
>seen both the Spark Sea and the Risk Sea and even the great Pee-Dee-Pee Sea
>filled with many animals which looked like fish, and were called Unixen.
>Taking some of the Unixen, especially many of the kind called Minixen, to the
>village, he had toiled for many months to breed a kind of fish which had
>the strengths of Unixen, but could live in the Pea Sea. And this fish
>had a magic power, which was that it could always find a girl fish or a
>boy fish even with its eyes closed, and so would replicate very quickly,
>until there were more fish in the sea than any number of villagers could
>eat. This magic came from a talisman that Linus did borrow from some
>friends of his, other fishermen who did not use the ogre's path, and ,
>and it was called a Geepul.
>
>And so once again the ogre took bark and sticks, and tacking a Dosfish,
>and first turning it into a Winfish, he fashioned the likeness of a
>turtle, and placed the Winfish inside of it even as he had wrapped the
>Dosfish in the Winfish bark. The turtle was a slow but very useful kind
>called a Browser, was quite good when served with fish, and the people
>had been using more and more of them to make up for the poor and bitter
>Winfish they were made to eat by the power of the ogre. "See," the ogre
>proclaimed, standing before all the villagers on the path to the Pea
>Sea, "My greatest work! You have said the Winfish is tiny and bitter
>tasting, and I have answered your calls. Behold, the Browserfish! Soon
>all will eat heartily, for Winfish are to be sold no more, and so all
>will benefit from the Browserfish." And the villagers scoffed, and
>although tired and unhopeful, they once again appeared before Usgov, and
>asked that he stop the ogre from preventing them from living on the
>plenty of the Pea Sea.
>
>"But how do I prevent you from living on the plenty of the Pea Sea?"
>exclaimed the ogre. "For is it not I that gives you the plentiful
>Winfish, the only fish in the Pea Sea which is pretty and tasty? Do I
>prevent you from climbing over the mountain? Do I stop you from fishing
>as you please? What harm can I cause those who harvest Browsers? I do
>not prevent them from doing so. I am only making it easier for those
>who want both Winfish and Browsers to enjoy a healthy meal without
>having to catch two creatures."
>
>And finally Usgov became skeptical, and questioned the ogre at some
>length. Now, Usgov was a kind and gentle god, and this has been said
>before; while covering his eyes and stopping up his ears may have led
>him to make some unwise choices, it is all for the best in the end, for
>he is not swayed by the mere evidence of his eyes and his ears, but
>quests for the truth without deception. But as all gods, Usgov did have
>a great weakness. Once his decision had been decreed, he was fearful of
>having to change it later, as then his worshipers would think him weak
>and easily confused, and would worship him no more. So Usgov did say "I
>will not consider whether the ogre can run the path to the Pea Sea. Nor
>will I decide whether the Winfish is a Dosfish. These things I have
>decreed already, and must not be reconsidered. But I will determine if
>the Browserfish is a Browser, or is a fish, or is both or is neither,
>for it might even be as a mammal, like the Applefish."
>
>And so Usgov took off its blindfold and unstoppered its ears, and walked
>the land questioning all whom it thought had answers. And seeing the
>great multitude of Dosfish in the Pea Sea, and the dark waters, and
>seeing all the villagers buying Winfish from the ogre even when the
>larger, tastier, and much more plentiful magic Nixfish were free for the
>asking, it pondered whether or not the situation is as it assumed. And
>so it led the villagers to the ogre's lair, and it commanded the brutish
>creature to allow them in. And in the ogre's lair, they did find many
>tablets, and on these tablets were written all of the plans, plots, and
>intentions of the ogre since it took up residence by the Pea Sea. And
>so it was that they read of the ogre's menacing tactics to take over the
>path which before all had stridden freely. And so it was learned of the
>ogre's plot to place a high fence across the backbone of the mountains,
>to further discourage those who would avoid the path, and his narrowing
>of the path to prevent anything but the tiny Dosfish from being carried
>back to the village, and to allow him to more easily hurl rocks onto
>anyone who would displease him, and to toss pebbles to trip those who
>harvested Nixfish and Browsers. And they did find out how the Winfish
>came to be, and how the ogre had crushed in the skull and broken the arm
>of his own brother ogre, who's name was Ibm, when it wanted to breed a
>fish which was larger and more tasty than a Dosfish, and was pretty as
>the Applefish. And it was learned also how the ogre knew the villager
>who had caught the Doctorfish was innocent, but had smitten him anyway,
>simply for trying to catch something which looked like a Dosfish,
>because it could too easily be made into a Winfish, even with the bits
>of bark and sticks which fell off of the other Winfish to show the
>Dosfish underneath. And they did read further that the ogre had meant
>for the Browserfish to encourage the villagers to abandon those who
>would catch and sell Browsers, as well as the ogre's intentions to
>likewise capture the market in coffee, a new beverage which goes well
>with most fish from the Pea Sea, but makes Dosfish taste very bad
>indeed, even worse than usual. And they learned many many other things,
>all amidst endless descriptions of the ogre's intent to stop the
>villagers from benefiting from the plenty of the Pea Sea, so that soon
>the ogre would not merely control the path and the Winfish market, but
>soon all of the waters. These the ogre did because it was jealous, and
>greedy, and for no other reason.
>
>And learning of these things, Usgov did command that the ogre be torn
>asunder, split into two and left to survive in whatever way he could
>manage. And some of the villagers, who were afraid they would lose
>their way to the Pea Sea if the path should no longer be narrow, and
>were afraid they would have no fish were the ogre there not to sell
>them, and thought the Nixfish, and the Browsers, and even the Applefish
>were not tasty at all because they had grown used to the bitter, greasy
>taste of Dosfish with Winfish bark. And these villagers yelled at
>Usgov, and the other villagers, and said "By what right do you tear him
>asunder for selling fish?"
>
>And so it was that Linus did not wield the sword which split the ogre in
>twain, nor was it those who gathered and sold Browsers, although these,
>and many more, were responsible for its falling. It was Usgov which did
>swing the weapon, even while some of the villagers protested, having
>learned to be jealous and greedy by the example of the ogre, and
>forgetting that it was not for selling fish which the ogre was finally
>laid low, but for all of the other things the ogre did, dishonest and
>unjust things in multitudes, to make it ever-harder for the villagers to
>enjoy the fish in the Pea Sea.
>
> Copyright 2000, T. Max Devlin
--
T. Max Devlin
-- Such is my recollection of my reconstruction
of events at the time, as I recall. Consider it.
Research assistance gladly accepted. --
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------------------------------
From: "John W. Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why use Linux?
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:15:22 -0600
Spud wrote:
>
> [snips]
>
> "Arthur Frain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Example: I've worked on an HP box running Win98 which did have
> problems, almost right out of the box.
Are you aware of the fact that HP doesn't have a great deal of
flexibility or control in regards to Windows and how it is
configured/installed?
> Firing it up in safe mode and
> removing all the crud fixed almost all the problems (one remaining
> issue turned out to be an application issue.) So, do I fault the OS,
> or the people who set it up - in this case by delivering a horribly
> messed up install CD?
Answer: you fault the people who delivered the OS - Microsoft.
> Personally, I fault the folks who set it up -
> they're the ones who loaded it down with all that dross.
Not neccesarily.
> Why is
> forcing in a boatload of totally unnecessary drivers, something done
> by the person configuring the box, a fault of the OS - which, it might
> be noted, will happily install just the drivers it needs, if installed
> sensibly?
You've never entered into a contract with MS, have you?
> Simply put, it's not a fault of the OS.
Yes it is.
> Oh, one might make the
> argument that the OS should work reasonably reliably anyway... but
> does that really deal with the issue?
Yes. If MS weren't so controlling, their software wouldn't be quite so
fragile.
> Right; so fix the underlying problem.
Yep. A format c: is a good start . . .
> As far as I'm aware, there is only one piece of hardware in existence
> which simply will not function sensibly under Win98,
Turns out, you are wrong.
> and that's the
> internal Sportster 33.6(?) PnP modem. Apparently, for some as-yet
> unexplained reason, whenever the machine does a PnP init, the modem
> concludes that the resources _it_ is using are in use, and re-maps
> itself to different resources, thereby totally hosing your com port
> configurations. At least, it's the only piece of hardware I've so far
> heard of which had this sort of problem on a reasonably configured
> machine.
And, surprise!, this problem does not occur under Linux . . . still want
to blame the hardware?
> Did you? You went into Safe Mode and removed all the dross?
Define: dross.
> Actually, it's comparatively easy... HP managed it without overmuch
> difficulty on one box I worked on.
HP doesn't write, maintain or in any way control Windows. We don't even
have much choice about how it gets installed or configured.
> Not in the slightest; I've suggested it _may_ be HP's fault
. . . that Windows, a product we do not in any control, is broken? Now,
how do you figure that?
> - having
> gone through that with one of their boxes myself. I've yet to see
> anything from you to suggest that in fact it was _not_ their fault.
The problems are with Windows, not the HP hardware. If that hardware
will work just fine under Linux, an OS that everybody claims has less
hardware support than Windows, then it should work just fine under
Windows . . . yet it doesn't. So, the problem is with Windows, and is
most likely something that we are not *allowed* to fix.
> So if Mandrake isn't the way to go, and Corel's too shaky at this
> point, what flavour would you suggest?
I would suggest reading the documentation re: sound card
installation/configuration, and either using a different configuration
method, or that you answer *NO* when asked whether or not you want to
risk doing something that you've been warned may lock up the machine.
> Windows 98 is, in fact, a quality product; it is not, however, an
> enterprise quality product. Can it be frustrating? Certainly; so can
> Linux, big deal. Can it be unstable? Certainly, so can Linux, big
> deal.
The problem here is that you imply that they are equally unstable, and
equally frustrating. Experience shows otherwise.
> As long as you persist in regarding Windows 98 as if it were
> something it's not intended to be, you'll be disappointed. The same
> can be said of Linux. Try this for an excercise... set up a Linux
> box, then try to run Office 97 on it. What? Doesn't work?
Errm . . . yes, actually, it seems to work. I haven't given it much of
a test though, and besides, I prefer Star Office or Applixware if I am
*FORCED* to use this kind of application.
> situations with Win98... one that I've also run into (not the exact
> same issue, but similar) and I suspect that, in your case as well as
> mine, it's lazy vendors configuring things to make their lives easier,
Nope. Us "lazy vendors" are reselling a product whose manufacturer
retains a great deal of control over how their product is
installed/configured.
What, you don't remember the big foo-foorah re: IE and Netscape icons on
the desktop . . . a relatively minor thing compared to some of the stuff
you are talking about?
> rather than doing it right, which is the cause of your headaches.
> It's but one of many reasons I suggest people avoid vendor-provided
> "solutions", and not just of Windows systems, but in general.
When supplied by a vendor, Linux is much more stable, due to the simple
fact that the vendor can modify/configure/fix the problem. What, did
you think HP was given the rights to the Windows source code and allowed
to modify it in any way we pleased, or something?
--
If I spoke for HP --- there probably wouldn't BE an HP!
John Stevens
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Chad Irby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:34:35 GMT
Josiah Fizer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chad Irby wrote:
>
> > Microsoft's repeated claims that you couldn't remove Explorer without
> > irreversibly crippling Windows, for one.
> >
>
> IE is far more then the browers. Removing IE will damage windows. Removing
> the web browsers will effect nothing.
That's what Microsoft claimed in the antitrust case they just lost.
They used videotapes and everything. It's a shame they had to perjure
themselves in an effort to try and "prove" this was true (it's not, BTW).
The videotaped "demo" was very funny. MS showed how "fast" a PC was
with Explorer, then showed another machine that was supposed to be the
first one with Explorer removed. The second machine didn't show any
problems or speed issues. Then someone from the prosecution noticed
that the second demo was from an entirely different machine...
--
Chad Irby \ My greatest fear: that future generations will,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] \ for some reason, refer to me as an "optimist."
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Stump)
Subject: Re: Star Office to be open sourced
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 23:28:30 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Colin R. Day <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Oh, I dunno! What's so hard about:
>>
>> format C:
>> <insert UNIX CDROM>
>> boot cdrom
>
>Hmm. I would feel a little weird doing that on my machine at work.
Oh, just be sure to ask before you do it. Tell them that if they
don't let you do it, that you'll walk.
------------------------------
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