Linux-Advocacy Digest #441, Volume #28 Wed, 16 Aug 00 21:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Big Brother and the Holding Company (tinman)
Re: So ya' wanna' run Linux?...I have a bridge for sale in Bklyn..... (Steve Mentzer)
Re: Microsoft MCSE ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Microsoft MCSE ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells? (Mike Marion)
Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells? (Mike Marion)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Mike Marion)
Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells? (R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ))
Re: So ya' wanna' run Linux?...I have a bridge for sale in Bklyn..... (Mike Marion)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tinman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Big Brother and the Holding Company
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 20:10:00 -0400
In article <I1nm5.1234$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Mike Byrns"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "tinman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > Actually, he went further. In the same interview, he claimed that
> > > > Windows does not have bugs.
> > >
> > > Post the article to backup your claim. I doubt it says anything of
> > > the
> > > sort.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > From the URL cited earlier in the thread
> > (<http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html>):
> >
> > FOCUS:
> > But there are bugs an any version which people would really like to
> > have
> > fixed.
> > Gates:
> > No! There are no significant bugs in our released software that any
> > significant number of users want fixed.
> >
> > FOCUS:
> > Oh, my God. I always get mad at my computer if MS Word swallows the
> > page
> > numbers of a document which I printed a couple of times with page
> > numbers. If I complain to anybody they say "Well, upgrade from version
> > 5.11 to 6.0".
> > Gates:
> > No! If you really think there's a bug you should report a bug. Maybe
> > you're not using it properly. Have you ever considered that?
>
> Thanks!
>
> You prove my point. You claimed Gates said that "...Windows does not
> have
> bugs.".
Did I? Where? ('
> He did not. He said that there are no significant bugs in
> Microsoft's released software that any significant number of users want
> fixed. That's well worded to defend his position but not at all
> incorrect.
Hmmmm, in regard to myself, 1 is a significant number and I've
encountered a significant number of bugs in MS products. ('
> Read the language. It concerns *significant* bugs and *significant
> numbers*
> of users. You can use logical decomposition to arrive at the following:
>
> 1) There may be any number of bugs in Microsoft's released software that
> Gates or Microsoft consider insignificant and a significant number of
> users
> that want these same bugs fixed.
Yes, I think that's true. In general, I think MS doesn't regard a bug as
significant unless it threatens sales.
> In this worst-case scenario, the users have spoken and Microsoft
> disagrees.
> Microsoft thinks the bugs are not-so-nasty and leaves them in no matter
> how
> many times they are reported. In my experience with Microsoft, as long
> as
> you contact them and make your case intelligently, they will neither
> charge
> you fo support costs nor will they ignore you. Of the 50 or so odd bugs
> I've reported in the last decade as a Windows engineer, they've only
> failed
> to fix one because they claimed that they were never able to reproduce
> it.
> It didn't happen overnight but most of the time when the next service
> pack
> rolled my bug went away.
Yes, once they're released a buggy product, they'll get around to fixing
it, eventually. ("
But wait, doesn't this contradict the interpretation you provided of
Bill's comments? Are the 50 bugs you reported not significant? And if
so, why did they fix them.
You are indeed a master of logical decomposition. ('
> 2) There may be any number of bugs in Microsoft's released software that
> Gates or Microsoft consider significant but an insignificant number of
> users
> have asked to have them fixed.
> In this case, testing found some nasty bugs but they were in such remote
> nether-regions of the product that they were deemed acceptable. A tiny
> number of users have reported them too. It costs Microsoft more to fix
> the
> bugs than it loses in PR and future sales to the users that reported
> them.
> This doesn't happen much either. They generally fix these kind by
> designing
> them out in the next revision. Unfortunately these bugs can be the most
> damaging to specific users when they are come across in the course of a
> days
> work. These are the kind that bite.
Especially in the wallet, since as you point out, you have to buy the
next rev to get rid of the problem.
>
> 3) There may be any number of bugs in Microsoft's released software that
> Gates or Microsoft consider insignificant and an insignificant number of
> users that want these same bugs fixed.
> In this case again they knew about the bugs and they were deemed
> not-so-nasty and the most everyone either fails to notice, report or care
> about them.
>
> 4) There may be any number of bugs in Microsoft's released software that
> they know nothing about.
> Plausible Deniability. These bugs are the worst. It means you failed in
> development *and* QA. Contrary to popular belief, Microsoft's development
> methods and quality assurance practices are both modern and effective.
> There a lots of bugs in Windows that Microsoft knows about but doesn't
> fix.
> Most are "TRIVIAL". The same goes for MacOS, linux and every commercial
> or
> shareware product out there. Software has bugs. QA finds bugs.
> Management
> decides whether or not it's cost effective to fix them all. As Borland's
> Phillipe Khan once said, "Shipping is a feature!"
>
> So to summarize, Gates did not lie. Nor was he completely frank. He's
> doing his job well.
Indeed, he's a master of marketspeak. I especially like this bit:
Gates:
No! If you really think there's a bug you should report a bug. Maybe
you're not using it properly. Have you ever considered that?
FOCUS:
Yeah, I did...
Gates:
It turns out Luddites don't know how to use software properly, so you
should look into that. -- The reason we come up with new versions is not
to fix bugs. It's absolutely not. It's the stupidest reason to buy a new
version I ever heard. When we do a new version we put in lots of new
things that people are asking for. And so, in no sense, is stability a
reason to move to a new version. It's never a reason.
> There aren't probably aren't (m)any bugs in
> Microsoft's
> released software that Microsoft officially considers significant *AND* a
> significant number of users want fixed. Matter of fact, that's how you
> know
> you're ready to come out of beta -- beta testers haven't reported any new
> bugs that you consider significant fo a full cycle. That how it works in
> commercial shrinkwrap software a the way from Microsoft all the way down
> to
> the little guys and open sourcers.
But some companies are better than others at QA. ('
--
______
tinman
------------------------------
Subject: Re: So ya' wanna' run Linux?...I have a bridge for sale in Bklyn.....
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Mentzer)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:11:35 GMT
>> Sure, throw out your WinModem.
>
>And get a real modem that boosts performance by a factor of three (I have
plenty
>examples on site...)
>
Why bother? The idea behind a winmodem is *cheap* *cheap* *cheap*.
They are simply ADC/DAC units that have the DSP firmware running on the PC. In
some ways, it is better because when a new spec revision takes place, you just
upgrade your driver. No need to flash the unit firmware, no need to replace
chips.
In reality, I prefer regular modems, but they are more expensive. A typical
WinModem costs about $39.00. A typical "standard" modem costs around $59.00.
The average Joe doesn't care if it is "standard". He sees "windows 9x" on the
box, and saves twenty bux.
>>
>> Throw out your Win Printer.
>
>And use industry standard printers without all them extra installations, dll
hell
>etc.
They are cheaper than most "standard" printers. The average joe wants to save
money, not spend it on something he cannot understand.
>
>>
>> Throw out your Win Scanner.
>
>Scanners in homes are just paper weights. Real graphic designers use high tech
>stuff.
>
Oh, I guess my wife using the new USB scanner at home is just a paperweight.
I'll remember to let her know that when she is sending out scanned pictures of
my kids to family around the country via email.
And next time I scan in a sales contract for archival purposes (I *do* this
stuff for real), I will make sure to remember that my scanner is a
paperweight...
knucklehead...
>>
>> Use half the features of your soundcard.
>
>The PC was never indented to be a hi-fi. Yet I have coupled my 16 bit sound
card to
>my hi fi for the odd game. I really do not see your point here...
>
The PC was never designed for full motion video or DVD decoding either. But
people are doing it, people like it and they will continue to take advantage of
technological advances.
I dont see *your* point.
>>
>> Use half the features of your video card.
>
>Support is growing fast and soon this point will be pointless.......... lol
>
Linux *barely* has support for non 3dfx 3d apps/libraries. We have been doing
3d on the PC for 4 years now.
>>
>> Spend days configuring a firewall.
>
>Less then 5 minutes actually.
>
LOL!
If you know what you are doing. The average joe thinks a "port" or what he
parks his car in and a "packet" is something he gets in the mail.
>>
>> Run a text browser.
>
>Or choose between all the others available.
>
All the others available? Where?
Lynx is useless for today's WWW.
Netscrape is a joke (and always will be).
The PC has Opera, Netscrape and IE. All are great browsers. Who needs more?
>>
>> TTF and anti-aliased fonts? What are they? Ruin your eyes.
>
>Mine seem perfect - what is you case here?
>
I think X fonts look terrible. My personal opinion.
>>
>> Run 5 different programs to read mail/news offline.
>
>Huh? What about Pine or Netscape?
>
The average joe won't like pine. Not glitzy enough.
If you like netscrape on Linux, you are a sick person :)
>>
>> Spend days setting up an internet connection sharing system.
>
>Again, less then 5 minutes - actually did it in less then 4 minutes the other
night
>in RH6.2 (2 PC's). I get a kick out of it these days to see how fast I can do
>things.
>
If you know what you are doing..
The average joe cannot pronounce modem correctly half the time.
>>
>> Get your ISP pissed at you when you mention Linux.
>
>No need - the only time surf is down is when ISP has a problem on their side.
Then
>again - plenty of ISP's use Linux anyway, so I don't really see your point
here -
>AGAIN.
>
Plenty of ISP's use WinNT as well. Plenty use BSD. Plenty use Solaris.
Linux support for ISP's is a nightmare. Period..
>
>Get your facts straight, please.
>
Try to understand what the average Joe wants, please... :)
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft MCSE
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 20:19:35 -0400
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > The techniques you mention are impossible to implement in
> > > these languages, thus a developer in those languages has no need to
> > > understand them.
> >
> > Wrong. IF a programmer's code TRIGGERS garbage collection, then
> > he would be well advised to understand how it works.
>
> Why? In those langauges, it just works. What need is there to understand
> it?
1. So that you understand what effect it has on the SYSTEM
Do you not sometimes write high-level routines based on the methods used
in your low-level routines?
For the same reasons, understanding garbage collection, resource
allocation,
etc, is essential for producing top-quality applications.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
I: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
J: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft MCSE
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 20:21:11 -0400
"Joseph T. Adams" wrote:
>
> Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> : news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> :> > The techniques you mention are impossible to implement in
> :> > these languages, thus a developer in those languages has no need to
> :> > understand them.
> :>
> :> Wrong. IF a programmer's code TRIGGERS garbage collection, then
> :> he would be well advised to understand how it works.
>
> : Why? In those langauges, it just works. What need is there to understand
> : it?
>
> LOL!!!!! :)
>
> You obviously never had to track down a memory leak, caused by
> believing that when things like Recordsets go out of scope, and the VB
> documentation claims that the memory used by these obviously
> unreachable objects is released (garbage-collected), it actually is.
>
> Or one caused by embedded Null characters inside VB "strings" that
> might or might not blow up any particular API function called
> implicitly or explicitly depending on how the string is passed,
> whether it is wrapped inside a Variant, whether the platform is 9x or
> NT, etc.
>
> Or one caused by SQL or Jet pages being locked where one might have
> expected only the row, not the page, to be locked. Or the tendency of
> ADO to fail silently when an attempt to institute a particular kind of
> lock or cursor type fails, substituting a lock or type of its own
> choosing rather than raising an error of any kind.
>
> Or one caused by dead Jet processes failing to relinquish locks upon
> parts of the .MDB files they once owned, forcing, in many cases, a
> server reboot.
>
> To be a competent VB developer - which I am, although I'm ashamed to
> admit it in a group filled with *real* programmers - you simply do
> have to know how C and the Windows API work. Not just how they are
> *documented* to work, but how they actually do, including those areas
> where the documentation is misleading, ambiguous, or flat-out wrong.
> You have to know about the quirks with regard to file locking, string
> handling (see Appleman's book for a better explanation than I can give
> here), MSSQL anomalies and limitations, garbage collection (which in
> VB does indeed "just work" - except when it doesn't) and many other
> areas which at least touch upon system-level architecture and coding.
>
> The attitude that app developers don't have to know anything about
> computer science says a LOT about the quality of application
> development, particularly on the platform where most of these
> attitudes tend to prevail.
>
> Joe
Which is PRECISELY why most M$ "solutions" are actually POLLUTIONS.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
I: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
J: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: "Jeem" Dutton is a fool of the pathological liar sort.
C: Jet plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a method of
sidetracking discussions which are headed in a direction
that she doesn't like.
D: Jet claims to have killfiled me.
E: Jet now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
F: Neither Jeem nor Jet are worthy of the time to compose a
response until their behavior improves.
G: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
H: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:32:40 GMT
Jeff Szarka wrote:
> Hmm... that's strange. I'd look at other things besides your video
> card. I've used almost all the beta drivers for my Geforce SDR over
> the last year or so and only one or two caused me trouble.
Ah, but I went as far as to pull everything else out at one point... unless
it's an issue with my mobo, and Asus K7V (using BIOSes from it's initial
shipped, up to the latest).
> I noticed you said something about choppy sound, which card?
SBLive (with and without Liveware installed). Those it's really only choppy
in Star Trek: Armada, which many have claimed happens under the game in 2k a
lot. Then again, that's the only thing I've been using under 2k with sound
that actually uses the sound card (i.e. when using the TV Tuner, I get sound
via the stereo directly from my VCR and/or Tivo, and when watching DVDs I get
sound via the stereo and my DVD card's S/PDIF line).
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
Encyclopedia Salesman: "What do you know about Vulcanized rubber?"
Joey: "Spock's birth control." [both laugh]
Salesman: "You _need_ these books!" -- Friends
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:35:45 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> There is pressure from some local politicians in this area to do just that.
Oh jesus! That's scary. I saw 2 dead monitors when I went on vacation just
this last month.. one was a blue screen and another was at a DOS prompt. Yep,
I sure as hell don't want something that can't handle flight departures and
arrivals on display controlling the ATC system.
Then again, I've done research into the ATC system for reports I did in
college, and it's really scary as it is. There just now getting some upgrades
finally done.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
If Microsoft made cars instead of software, you could only have one person
at a time in your car unless you bought Car95 or CarNT. But then you have
to buy more seats.
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:40:15 GMT
"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
> distinct from this model than 'modern ISPs', like AOL. In both cases,
> the goal isn't actually to profit from giving people access, but on
> profiteering by restricting people's access in any way you can dupe them
> into agreeing to.
I've got Road Runner here in San Diego, and I run a small web and mail server
on my Linux box. AAMOF, there are a _lot_ of people that do. You should've
seen the hate mail that resulted when the blocked port 25 about 2 years ago...
people were ready to march to the cable offices with pitchforks and torches
a-la the mob after Frankenstein. They finally agreed to stop blocking it, and
turned the block off after about a week.
We're actually lucky in that our local RR manager knows he has a lot of
tech-savvy people that subscribe, and would lose a ton to DSL if they tried
something like that again. Therefore he allows people to run servers as long
as what they do doesn't impact other users in their node.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
If anything can go wrong it w
Segmentation fault. Core dumped.
------------------------------
From: R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard ) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows stability: Alternate shells?
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:45:05 GMT
In article <8n8lut$gg3$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Stuart Fox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8n8032$8v8$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > In article
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Jeff Szarka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 07:32:54 GMT, R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Furthermore, with operating systems consuming 100
> > > >megabytes and taking nearly 10 minutes to reboot
> > > Windows 95 on a 486 doesn't even take 10 minutes to reboot.
> > > Unless you load it with Norton Un-Utilities or such.
There is a HUGE difference between Windows 95 on a 486 (DX/100?)
and Windows NT Server with SQL Server, IIS, and custom applications.
If you shut down cleanly, it takes about 10 minutes to go through
all the sanity checks and such.
If you shut down awkwardly, it takes about 20 minutes to finish
auditing the disks. If you have a very large database (100 gigs or so)
the boot-up can take quite a while after an unscheduled system failure
(panic shut-down).
> > NT Server takes at least 10-20 minutes on a large system.
>
> Rubbish. 5 minutes, plus whatever the POST checks
> take, which on a Compaq can be considerable
I'm probably working with a different class of NT Server than you.
Typically, these things have rather large databases, complex
applications, and SCSI/RAID arrays which have to be synchronized.
On some of the really big systems, I have to wait for as much as
an hour from boot to fully functional availability.
--
Rex Ballard - I/T Architect, MIS Director
Linux Advocate, Internet Pioneer
http://www.open4success.com
Linux - 42 million satisfied users worldwide
and growing at over 5%/month! (recalibrated 8/2/00)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: Mike Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: So ya' wanna' run Linux?...I have a bridge for sale in Bklyn.....
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 00:54:51 GMT
Steve Mentzer wrote:
> Netscrape is a joke (and always will be).
> The PC has Opera, Netscrape and IE. All are great browsers. Who needs more?
So netscape sucks... and netscape is great?!?
BTW, I've run copies of netscape on Linux and Solaris boxes, doing a lot of
net browsing as well as mail and news for over a _week_ before without
crashes. _Never_ seen that happen with IE on windows (any variety).
> The average joe won't like pine. Not glitzy enough.
> If you like netscrape on Linux, you are a sick person :)
Netscape works fine.. pine is very user friendly and does the job.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc.
A nerd is someone whose life revolves around computers and technology.
A geek is someone whose life revolves around computers and technology... and
likes it! - Stolen from a /. post.
------------------------------
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