Linux-Advocacy Digest #996, Volume #28 Fri, 8 Sep 00 07:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: A guise for Marxism (Was: businesses are psychopaths (Phillip Lord)
Re: Sun cannot use Java for their servers!! (Zenin)
Re: A guise for Marxism (Was: businesses are psychopaths (Phillip Lord)
Re: How low can they go...? (Zenin)
Re: Sun cannot use Java for their servers!! (Zenin)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: philosophy is better than science (Phillip Lord)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: A guise for Marxism (Was: businesses are psychopaths
Date: 08 Sep 2000 11:24:10 +0100
>>>>> "Perry" == Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Perry> On 04 Sep 2000 20:22:51 -0700, Craig Brozefsky
Perry> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Perry Pip) writes:
>>
>>> Anarcho-syndicalism is just a marxism hybrid under the guise of
>>> a fancy name to hide that it is just another form of marxism.
>> Most Marxists, including Marx and Lenin, would disagree with
>> this assesment.
Perry> Marx would disagree that Leninism is a form of marxism. So??
Difficult to ask him really.
Perry> Their system failed because it left a vacuum of power. Any
Perry> such anarchist movement is doomed. History has proven that.
Its very easy to pass out statements like "history has proven
that" rather than actually attempt to support your position. History
has perhaps also shown us the current capitalist system is
exploitative, danger, and can only be maintained by continual use of
military force. What of it.
>> Under anarchism, quite remarkable things occured in Spanish
>> industry and agriculture, including increased production in one
>> city equaling the production of the entire nation prior to worker
>> control of the factories. For more information on the Spanish
>> Civil War see http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/9820/
Perry> Sure, they are mirrored on the Marxist Internet Archive as
Perry> well. If it wasn't Marxist, why are Marxist's preaching it as
Perry> one of their claims to fame:
Perry> http://www.marxists.org/history/index.htm. The main ideas in
Perry> anrachism can be found in the writings of Marx and Engel.
Indeed. I suspect that you will also find the writings of
Tom Paine, and stories about the Luddities, and the Levellers as
well. I don't think that anyone is trying to deny that both anarchism
and Marxism are linked, or that they are not both left wing
ideologies. Thats a different thing from saying that they are the
same.
>>> What anarchists fail to admit to themselves is that humanity is
>>> not yet socially evolved enough for a very large society without
>>> some form of controlled hierarchy.
>> Yes, that is quite often the ruse that those who are presently
>> at the top of that hierarchy, or otherwise been fitting from it's
>> presense, push off on everyone else.
Perry> Yes...like the vast majority of working people in
Perry> industrialized nations today who are doing quite fine thanks
Perry> to capitalism.
Or in spite of it. And of course you have to bear in mind
the many of the costs of capitalism are born by those outside the
US. Its also not that hard to find those who are not doing well of
capitalism in your own society if you actually go and look for it.
>> It's true that the ideologies guiding our society would need to
>> be changed in order to support the anarchist, or communist
>> vision.
Perry> Human nature at a very basic level would need to be
Perry> changed. How are you going to change it?? Thru force and
Perry> violence people are going to become nicer???
All sorts of political systems down the age have
support from human nature, or from god, which pretty much reduces to
the same thing. Its very easy to assume that your own culture has
support of god, or reality. This does not make it correct.
Perry> Education can only do so much to make people more altruistic,
Perry> which is what your philosophy requires. But after encouraging
Perry> all this violence you encourage, you are going to have to
Perry> teach them first how not to be violent any more.
Which we have to do anyway. Capitalism is maintained
continually by violence. Its not coincidence that the "leader of the
free world" also has by far the largest army.
I have a lot of sympathy with those who argue for non-violent
action, but there is the problem that if you are effective sooner or
later someone is going to kick your door in, and you need an answer to
this.
Of course if you actually look at the Russia revolution it
was actually remarkably unviolent. The Storming of the Winter Palace
took place in about five minutes. If you contrast this with the
violence that was going on at the same time in an attempt to ensure
the maintenance of the previous regime you perhaps get some idea of
which system was violent.
>>> This is not to say it can't be possible some day. But such
>>> evolution is not going to come thru a violent or agressive
>>> uprising.
>> How can it come thru any other means?
Perry> Violence only breeds more fear and distrust. It certainly
Perry> won't teach people to be more altruistic, which is what your
Perry> philosophy requires. That's utterly stupid. All forms of this
Perry> worker uprising bullshit have historically failed...and led
Perry> to disaster for the workers who were supposed to benefit.
There have been many successful uprisings as it happens, and
many others which had partial successes, from the Levellers, and
Luddities, to the American slave rebellions, to the WWII
mutinities. And many of those that failed (such as the Spanish civil
war, and the Russian Revolution) were worth fighting none the less
because what would have happened otherwise was worse. And if you
include the effects of organised labour, then in my country you can
include the minimum wage, the health and safety legislation, the wage
councils, the health service, free education. Maybe not as sexy as a
good revolution but invaluable none the less.
Phil
------------------------------
From: Zenin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sun cannot use Java for their servers!!
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 10:25:22 GMT
Ermine Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: If these are your objections, then why aren't you running Win2K, which
: does support everything you describe including secure remote connection?
That's the problem, it doesn't. If you think it does, you don't
understand the issues.
--
-Zenin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) From The Blue Camel we learn:
BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC
Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only
medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least,
more fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution".
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: A guise for Marxism (Was: businesses are psychopaths
Date: 08 Sep 2000 11:40:51 +0100
>>>>> "Perry" == Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Perry> On 05 Sep 2000 12:04:53 +0100, Phillip Lord
Perry> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Its perfectly reasonable to say that both anarchism and Marxism
>> are extreme, left wing, and revolutionary ideologies, but this
>> does not make them the same thing.
>>
Perry> The ideas expressed in anarchism look to me like the came
Perry> right out of the writings a Marx and Engel.
Then you should read them again.
Perry> History has shown anytime there is a vacuum of power someone
Perry> fills it. People want to be led. History has shown that all
Perry> forms of marxism fail.
Its a pity that Down and Out in Paris and London is not out of
copyright yet. There is a lovely piece in it on the idea that tramps
(homeless) live that way "because they want to". People want to be
led? Do you want to be led?
>> What you are saying here appears to me is that they we can only
>> have a society based around inequality and enforced by main
>> force. I do not accept this, and hope that I never do.
Perry> There is no evidence your philosophy will result in more
Perry> equality. Even if you had perfectly equality, someone would
Perry> whine and say they are not getting a fair share. And what you
Perry> condone is that they take it violently?
No, what I suggest is that the resist the violence that is
being done to maintain the system that exists at the moment.
Perry> If it comes, it will come thru improved communication and
Perry> understanding of one another.
>> So if we just talk lots eventually at the top of the "controlled
>> hierarchy" will say "good grief, you are right, we can have an
>> egalitarian democratic society"
Perry> There is certainly more chances of that than your system of
Perry> violently forcing people to be altruistic. If you think
Perry> violence is acceptable, then anyone can justifiably resort to
Perry> that when they don't get their way. Then society becomes
Perry> barbaric, not civilized at all. We currently have a
Perry> democratic system. If you think your system is better,
Perry> convince the people and they will vote it in. Problem is you
Perry> can't convince them, so you need violently force it, right??
We do not have a democratic system. We have as you are ready
to point out a capitalist system. The two are contradictory. Our
parliament/congress is ruled partly by the ballot box, but much more
by the monied interests. We might be able to rearrange some of the
furniture by voting but we can not move house. As the saying goes, if
voting changed anything they would abolish it.
Things have changed since Marx's days. We can discuss these
issues in public now, we can be openly democratic in our own
organisations. We can be internationalist in a way that Marx could
not. Lenin and Trotsky spent much of their lives dodging assassins, or
in prison. These days we have changed society enough that we do not
need to do this anymore. Revolution is not about waving guns at
people, its not about kicking in heads, and it never has been. It is
about changing the entire nature of society, and accepting the fact
that if you try and chip away at the status quo, those in power just
come at put it back again.
Phil
------------------------------
From: Zenin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 10:39:01 GMT
T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Said Zenin in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
:>T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>: Said Zenin in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
: [...]
:> Half-Life multi-player isn't RPG, which is where the real fun is.
:
: I'm definitely not a big fan of multi-player games. Its an interesting
: diversion for a little while, but its never kept my interest.
Ah, ok, then you're right; HL probably isn't for you (well, maybe
the single player, as it's kind of a strategy/puzzle game with a
story then a RPG).
Personally I lost intrest in challenging computers a long, long time
ago. The games I play now really have to directly challenge other
real people on a level playing field to hold any interest for me.
Anyone can program a bot to beat you and "beating" them has no
thrill for me. Beating another live player however, brings a real
sense of competition.
To each their own.
--
-Zenin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) From The Blue Camel we learn:
BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC
Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only
medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least,
more fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution".
------------------------------
From: Zenin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Sun cannot use Java for their servers!!
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 10:21:30 GMT
lyttlec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>snip<
: Perhaps I misunderstood your point. I read "when the OS blows up, nobody
: can hack your data". In fact the data can be hacked even if the OS has
: blown up. The OS blowing up doesn't stop the machine from running. It can
: still be setting there running right along. If there is no hardware damage
: then hacking the data is easy. In fact, a networked NT machine may have
: the "OS blown up" and still be hacked remotely as it may leave some
: functions running that only use BIOS calls and can be remotely exploited.
I'd be curious to know of a modern OS that used BIOS functions of
any kind after the system has been initialized. AFAIK, NT has no
reason to.
: Also we are very lucky that script kiddies aren't smart enough to know how
: to reprogram the flash BIOS in most of todays computers.
You think they aren't? There are quite a number of viruses that
exploit exactly this.
Crackers can exploit nearly anything in very creative ways and have
for ever. I remember an old ProDOS virus that wrote most its self
*between* the tracks of the disk so it could not be detected by
scanning any file.
: None of this means that the hardware would ever be usable for standard OS
: installation again. But there are commercial companies that make a
: profitable business of hacking data from systems with the OS blown up.
Typically when an "OS blows up", it halts the processor. I'd be
very interested to see any CERT advisory notices about such attacks.
You wouldn't care to provide a URL, would you? Thanks.
--
-Zenin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) From The Blue Camel we learn:
BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC
Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only
medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least,
more fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution".
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 06:29:39 -0400
JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:39b86379$1$yrgbherq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>>
>>
>> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> >news:39b771b7$2$yrgbherq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> >> Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>> >>
>> >> >Gary Hallock wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Kennedy wanted to get us out (and there are tapes to prove THAT,
>> >too),
>> >> >> > but LBJ decided to insert 500,000 men instead.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Johnson also wanted to get us out - it was part of his 1964
>campaign.
>> >Goldwater
>> >> >> wanted to extend to war into China and use nuclear weapons.
>> >> >> The fact is that every president since Eisenhower promised to get us
>> >out of
>> >> >> Vietnam and each ended up actually getting us in deeper. That
>> >includes Nixon.
>> >> >> Viewing Vietnam as Johnson's war is very simplistic.
>> >>
>> >> >Who sent over the first combat unit larger than a company?
>> >> >Who sent the first squadron of Air Force ground support craft?
>> >>
>> >> >Who slided our troops from the position of tag-along ADVISORS into
>> >> >full-fledged direct combatants.
>> >>
>> >> >Before LBJ, yes, Advisors took part in fighting...this is routine...
>> >Anybody
>> >> >who goes out in the bush carries a firearm, and shoots when it gets
>> >hairy.
>> >>
>> >> >But before LBJ, it was always a couple of Americans giving advice and
>> >> >assistance to a much larger body of Viet Namese.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Plug in to how Ike sent aircraft carriers into the Gulf and offered to
>> >drop
>> >> nukes on the Vietmin (sp) in 1954 to support the French -- then think
>of
>> >the
>> >> CIA running lose in SEA, and you will begin to understand who started
>the
>> >> Vietnam war.
>>
>> >Who gives a FUCK! I've heard of off topic but this should be illegal. Get
>> >this shit out of here!
>>
>>
>> Listen you jackass troll, what is off-topic is you thinking you have
>anything
>> worth listening too. Get out of the OS2 ng moron.
>>
>> BTW, I do understand that your real problem is that you are such a
>complete
>> idiot that you can't stand anyone who points out that you don't have
>anything
>> worth saying. -- Which is the only reason for your off-topic comments to
>me.
>Well...this jackass made you instantly stop talking about the bullshit
>above....what's that make you? :-)
Go away moron. It wasn't an ongoing conversation. I corrected one persons
perspective. You jumped in because you carry grudges -- like all little people
do -- and just had to try and bite me.
The reason the conversation stopped is because it ended, not be you came
along. We know that you don't the brains to carry on an intelligent
conversation. Your perspective is now corrected too. Go away troll.
===========================================================
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
===========================================================
------------------------------
From: Phillip Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.infosystems.gis,comp.infosystems.www.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: philosophy is better than science
Date: 08 Sep 2000 11:59:03 +0100
>>>>> "Perry" == Perry Pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Perry> Our society (the U.S.) is one of the few that strives to give
Perry> everyone the opportunity to acchieve their full potential.
>> You society is one which venerates the illusion of this ideal
>> above all others maybe. It would appear to me that the history of
>> the US is entirely one a class struggle, from its beginnings in a
>> bourgeois revolution,
Perry> Now that's a bunch a communist propaganda bullshit. A
Perry> bourgeois revolution?? No, the American revolution was a
Perry> revolt against a controlling Monarchy that taxed it's
Perry> colonies without any democratic represention. If anything,
Perry> you can credit the American revolution for as first in
Perry> bringing the ancient concept of human rights into a lasting
Perry> political doctrine.
You should definitely read the correspondence between
Tom Paine, and George Washington on the revolution. Its also worth
noting the effects and the ideology of groups like the Levellers and
the Diggers had on British history.
The American revolution was an amazing event and one
which should be remembered. Its even more amazing if set within its
historical context, starting more or less from the English civil war,
and including the French revolution of course. All of these were
great steps forward. None the less they were bourgeois revolutions.
Incidentally how is it that building the ancient concept of
human rights into a lasting political doctrine came about as the
result of the violence of the American revolution. I thought that
nothing but barbarity and the general collapse of society could come
about from violence?
>> Despite all of this, because I am not in one of the favoured
>> professions, because I am a scientist rather than a stock broker,
>> I still have difficulty keeping a roof over my head.
Perry> Anybody who can program computers well can definitely keep a
Perry> roof over his head in the U.S., and do almost as well as a
Perry> stock broker.
Possible I could as well. Who knows?
Perry> But, anyways, you say above that too much is spent on
Perry> technology, so why do you expect a job as a scientist??
I did not say that. I said we have no evidence that it
is money well spent. I do not expect a job as a scientist.
Perry> Why should society bear the cost of a smart person like you
Perry> pursuing what is interesting to him and not what is usefull
Perry> to society?? Reading Shakespeare won't feed the poor. Some
Perry> who have read Marx have killed tens of millions.
And who is the judge of what is useful to society?
>> I will pass on your advice that this is because of their or their
>> parents failings.
Perry> Well who's failing is it?? Why did their parents have
Perry> children when they didn't have the economic capacity to raise
Perry> them?
Raising children is a 20 year experience (and the rest). If
you don't have them when you can not afford them, then you never have
them.
Perry> I think the first thing the poor need to learn is to stop
Perry> popping out so many babies. When they get that message, than
Perry> maybe wealthier poeple can consider helping them. Otherwise,
Perry> any attempt to help is futile, and why should people waste
Perry> their money trying to change something they can't.
You really are a terribly patronising person aren't you.
The "poor" will never improve their situation whilst the "wealthier
people consider helping them", as they never will. Change will only
come from people themselves.
Phil
------------------------------
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