Linux-Advocacy Digest #361, Volume #29 Sat, 30 Sep 00 00:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Michael Marion)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Michael Marion)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Michael Marion)
Re: GPL & freedom (Jonathan Revusky)
Re: GPL & freedom (Kevin)
Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS (Michael Marion)
Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS (Michael Marion)
Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS (Michael Marion)
Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS (Michael Marion)
Re: GPL & freedom ("Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)")
Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS (Michael Marion)
Re: Can Win9x and NT be considered in the same family? (OSguy)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Goldhammer)
Re: GPL & freedom ("Frank McGrath")
Re: How low can they go...? ("JS/PL")
Re: How low can they go...? ("James A. Robertson")
Re: How low can they go...? ("James A. Robertson")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:25:30 GMT
"Joseph T. Adams" wrote:
> Another good idea is to budget the amount of your car payment (or
> more), and when the loan is paid off, continue to write a check for
> the same amount, only deposit it in a savings account instead. Take
Yep... I already do that in a way now, and will continue to. Always been part
of the plan.
> good care of the car (i.e., don't drive like me :) ) and keep driving
> it for as long as it continues to be safe, usable, and not too
> embarrassing. By the time its useful life is over, you'll have saved
Having a family member (brother in law) who's a mechanic at the dealer you buy
the car from helps too. :)
> In the majority of situations I see (most common being someone who can
> afford a perfectly OK car, but wants a flashier or fancier one), it
You should see the parking lots here.. the flashy car has become the rule
instead of the exception. Sheesh. :)
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. -
http://www.miguelito.org
Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?
Linux: the maintainable OS.
------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:27:45 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
> Credit Card debt is just plain STUPID.
Exactly.. unfortunately the vast majority of people have no idea. The only
times I ever use my card is when I need something now, don't have the cash
handy (or want to leave a buffer in checking just in case) but know I can pay
the bill in full right away.
CC interests are damn near highway robbery.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. -
http://www.miguelito.org
If Microsoft made cars instead of software, the seats would force everyone
to have the same size butt.
------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:31:19 GMT
Mike Byrns wrote:
> you're right -- we should just say "no". All advertising should be opt
> in like good internet advertising.
It is for me.. oh wait, not everyone has a Tivo. :)
Seriously, I don't watch commercials at all anymore... I always watch shows
that I record on the tivo, and skip over them at 2x or 3x speed. Every now
and then one catches my eye (usually new movie ads) and I can watch those,
then skip the rest (that's my opt-in).
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. -
http://www.miguelito.org
If Microsoft made cars instead of software, you could only have one person
at a time in your car unless you bought Car95 or CarNT. But then you have
to buy more seats.
------------------------------
From: Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: GPL & freedom
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:24:07 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" wrote:
>
> S.A.Belmonte <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (comp.lang.java.advocacy)
> |
> | I may be wrong. Who thinks that there is a general
> | misunderstanding as to what the GPL actually grants? I certainly
> | came up against a few of the problems brought up in this thread
> | when I was asked to release some of my code under the GPL.
>
> Several people where I work believed that they could distribute
> GPL'ed code with their own non-GPL'ed code as long as the GPL'ed code
> was not modified. In other words, if I only *use* the gnu-regex
> library then my program doesn't have to be GPL'ed. I think the
> commonly-misunderstood meaning of GPL is more in line with the L-GPL
> for libraries.
That was roughly my understanding. I was under the impression that, as
long as you were using it as a separate dynamically loaded library, it
was okay.
After all, there are commercial programs on linux and they call system
code (in libraries) that is under the GPL, don't they?
JOnathan Revusky
>
> The GPL really only creates problems for corporations -- and only
> when they are trying to exploit the work of others for their own
> profit. Sounds good to me, but yes, I do think there is a general
> misunderstanding of GPL in the industry.
>
> Jam (address rot13 encoded)
------------------------------
From: Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: GPL & freedom
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:33:44 GMT
"Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" wrote:
>
> The GPL really only creates problems for corporations -- and only
> when they are trying to exploit the work of others for their own
> profit.
Oh yes, those evil, evil corporations. Trying to make a profit.
Yes, we must do everything we can to stomp out profits in all
forms. No one should ever be allowed to make a profit. Those
greedy bastards.
Then we can rename the country "USSR."
Kevin.
------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:34:45 GMT
"." wrote:
> > Again, I belive NT does that. Every process is a thread, and every process
> > can be multithreaded.
>
> Every application isnt multithreaded...
>
> > I don't see how an OS could force every process to multithread.. you have to
> > program threads into your code.
>
> Exactly; BeOS demands it.
So if I write a simple app that wouldn't benefit from being multithreaded.. I
still have to code for it? If so, that's freaking lame. Noone should ever
have to put in code that's not useful.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. -
http://www.miguelito.org
If Microsoft made cars instead of software, you could only have one person
at a time in your car unless you bought Car95 or CarNT. But then you have
to buy more seats.
------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:42:42 GMT
Daniel Berger wrote:
> Now you're just making crap up. I have seen it go into the kernel
> debugger during installation, but then I've seen just about every other
> OS fail at some point during installation as well. Never have I seen
> it crash *after* successful installation.
Uh oh.. he's falling into the advocate-over-the-edge personality: "I haven't
seen that so you MUST be lying!"
I had Be 5 (5.0.2 I think.. whatever the 2nd patch level is) hang several
times requiring a reboot, and crash at least 3 times.
Hey, _every_ OS crashes... it's impossible to write something that will never
crash. But IME Solaris and Linux have been far more stable. Linux is
definately more stable on the same box I installed Be on.
> I'd love to see this put to the test. I've crashed a Solaris box after
> 3 incorrect shutdowns. No long reboots with BeOS, either.
By default Solaris is much more paranoid about fscks. That can be changed.
With solaris >= 7 you can enable logging.. then it rarely every fails to start
right up.
> Since when? Which one? I'm genuinely curious. Well, if they are then
> you're right. It shouldn't be a problem any more.
Mandrake 7.1 comes to mind. I've even installed RH6.2 with it (but you have
to download some floppy images).
> There are over 2000 apps available on bebits alone. Where do you get
> this crap?
And just like with linux and windows, many are just different people's
versions of programs that do the same thing.
Hey, I tried (and still have) BeOS.. it has promise. But IMO, it's sub par
when compared to Linux (and most Unix OSes)...
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. -
http://www.miguelito.org
Harry: "Yeah I called her up, she gave me a bunch of crap about me not
listening to her, or something, I don't know, I wasn't really paying
attention." -- From _Dumb & Dumber_ (1994)
------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:44:12 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Mandrake 7.x doesn't use LILO.
Well, it uses grub by default, but you can select LILO if you use the expert
install options.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. -
http://www.miguelito.org
A yer ago I kudnt spel Sistum Admnistratur; now i R won.
------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:45:52 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >It sounds like you dont have alot of experience with BeOS.
>
> Due to lack of hardware support primarily.
Same here.. if it weren't the slowest OS I've used in years everytime I move a
window around (or do anything that requires a screen draw for that matte) I'd
use it more too. Unfortunately, my Geforce2 card only works with the stock
VESA driver, which is dog-ass slow.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. -
http://www.miguelito.org
A yer ago I kudnt spel Sistum Admnistratur; now i R won.
------------------------------
From: "Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: GPL & freedom
Date: 30 Sep 2000 00:53:07 GMT
Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (comp.lang.java.advocacy)
|"Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" wrote:
|>
|> The GPL really only creates problems for corporations -- and only
|> when they are trying to exploit the work of others for their own
|> profit.
|
| Oh yes, those evil, evil corporations. Trying to make a profit.
| Yes, we must do everything we can to stomp out profits in all
| forms. No one should ever be allowed to make a profit. Those
| greedy bastards.
|
| Then we can rename the country "USSR."
If capitalism is truly superior to communism, then the GPL poses no
threat. And the 'Domino Theory' that the GPL is a virus set to
destroy all non-community software development must necessarily be
wrong. On the other hand, should GPL code rule the industry what
does that say about capitalism?
Jam (address rot13 encoded)
------------------------------
From: Michael Marion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows+Linux+MacOS = BeOS
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 00:54:09 GMT
"." wrote:
> Thus generating alot of the reasoning behind the arguments of some of
> the most illogical and vehement anti-linux people on COLA. Try it,
> you might like it alot. BFS is the most incredible filesystem I and
> many others have ever seen.
Have you even tried any other journalling FS? Reiserfs, xfs, even journalled
ufs on solaris come to mind.
--
Mike Marion - Unix SysAdmin/Engineer, Qualcomm Inc. -
http://www.miguelito.org
Ralph: "Oh yes, Larry Benson... the x1000. Worked out better then you
dreamed, didn't they?"
Larry: "Actually there was a little bit of a problem."
Ralph: "Then it's with your software!" -- Small Soldiers.. sounds like most
Chip and OS companies though. :)
------------------------------
From: OSguy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Can Win9x and NT be considered in the same family?
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 20:25:18 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Can we really consider 9x and NT part of the same OS family? I say no!
> 9x is 32/16bit hybrid hack for DOS. It has no filesystem protection,
> no journaling, and no real multi-user capabilities. NT actually has
> these. The only thing have in common with each other is binary type and
> UI and even then they aren't 100% the same. The API's are somewhat
> similar however they have several large differences and some functions
> do not do the same things.
I say yes you can consider 9x and NT part of the same OS family because
this "OS family" is owned by the Evil Empire, and it only runs (and was
designed to only run) on the Intel Microprocessor Family, a processor
family that is Backwards compatible. Putting in new features on each newer
upgrade of the OS does not make it a different family (especially since the
software APIs are mostly compatible from version to version of the
OS.....indicating to me that there was no radical change in the basic
philosophy of how the Win32 OS will work).
Just my opinion....
I still prefer Unix/Linux implementation over Win32.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Goldhammer)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:02:55 GMT
>>
>> Ok. Then you do care about efficiency.
>
>Only in the sense that it is the absolute LAST thing on my extremely
>long specification! And the usual meaning of "efficiency" in the context
Then I don't quite grasp what you mean by "efficiency". I require
the following from my OS, all of which must be concurrent:
1. to run massive numerical simulations
2. To burn stuff to my CD-RW
3. To run my local news server
4. To browse the web
5. To compile endles masses of code
6. To generate dvi's and print large ps documents
7. To give me, at all times, an uninterrupted access
to a simple CLI, without exception, without excuse, without lag.
Now. If I can do 1-7 concurrently, then I consider this
to be efficient. The OS is allowing _me_ to be efficient.
I'm afraid I don't have the time to wait 5 years for better hardware,
although I would be interested in contemplating it as a
possibility once that hardware arrives.
These are the only OS's that have met the task:
1. FreeBSD
2. Linux (Debian, Redhat, probably all other variants.)
Other unicies like Ultrix, IRIX, Solaris, etc, passed the requirements
thrown at them but were not tested with all criteria concurrently.
Windows failed completely, without question.
Now. I understand that "efficiency", whatever that means, is on
the bottom rung of your list. It isn't on mine. Perhaps we
have different criteria of efficiency?
--
Unix is life. Windows is death.
------------------------------
From: "Frank McGrath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: GPL & freedom
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:07:01 GMT
IMHO, Capitalism is superior to Communism.
IMHO, GPL is a threat.
There *should be* a movement for a truly free, open, common platform that is
ideology neutral. Many people have perceived that GPL is such a platform.
I do not believe that GPL comes close. GPL forms a dividing wedge through
the industry separating the holy warriors from the capitalists. GPL forces
all capitalists to play a different game.
I would rather be a Capitalist than a Communist. I think GPL is misguided.
I repeat my prior question: "Why should all software be free as opposed to
other intellectual property?" Specifically, why is it OK for authors and
musicians to copyright their works but not OK for software developers to do
so. If GPL is the right approach, then all music should be free, all books
and writing should be free.
I understand that GPL cannot force us to play this game unless we agree to.
I understand that GPL is not a fascist dictatorship imposed by force. GPL
has no power that we do not give to it.
Consequently, I would urge the industry to NOT support GPL. We should come
up with an alternative approach that is *truly* free, one that accepts
freely offered source into the public domain, and allows *any* extensions,
public our private, to flourish.
"Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8r3dhj$msa$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Kevin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (comp.lang.java.advocacy)
> |"Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" wrote:
> |>
> |> The GPL really only creates problems for corporations -- and only
> |> when they are trying to exploit the work of others for their own
> |> profit.
> |
> | Oh yes, those evil, evil corporations. Trying to make a profit.
> | Yes, we must do everything we can to stomp out profits in all
> | forms. No one should ever be allowed to make a profit. Those
> | greedy bastards.
> |
> | Then we can rename the country "USSR."
>
> If capitalism is truly superior to communism, then the GPL poses no
> threat. And the 'Domino Theory' that the GPL is a virus set to
> destroy all non-community software development must necessarily be
> wrong. On the other hand, should GPL code rule the industry what
> does that say about capitalism?
>
> Jam (address rot13 encoded)
>
------------------------------
From: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:16:45 -0400
"chrisv" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >My bet is that the legal conduct of Microsoft will be found to be
> >stellar and perfectly "pro-competitive", once it's heard by a panel of
wiser
> >judges instead of a clueless and collusive lower court judge.
>
> Yech. Scum. Let me guess, you make a fat living with Microsoft
> products somehow?
I could easily make a living if MS didn't exist.
> Anyways, I've had lawyers tell me that findings of fact like those
> that were made in the Microsoft case are almost never overturned.
Whatever. You going to be around in a year for the victory party?
------------------------------
From: "James A. Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:46:30 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >
> >The 'improvement' that mattered was Windows 3.0 support. neither Lotus
> >nor WordPerfect figured out fast enough that Windows was going to be
>
> Bullshit. You're talking about Monopolysoft taking a slight
> early lead and no one being able to catch up. Lotus most
> definitely supported Windows 3.0 early on. Anything else is
> self serving historical revisionism.
>
> Borland was also rather on the ball too.
>
Go back and read the PC Magazine reviews of the time.
--
James A. Robertson
Technical Product Manager (Smalltalk), Cincom
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
------------------------------
From: "James A. Robertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 03:47:12 GMT
"." wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "chrisv" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> How anyone can be so stupid as to "root" for Microsoft, is waayyy...
> >> beyond me. These people are evil. Don't you know that? They didn't
> >> get to where they are by playing fair. Do you really think that
> >> playing fair gets you to where they are in that amount of time? Do
> >> you really think that Microsoft's products are that much better than
> >> anyone else's?
>
> > In the Windows arena, yes, they often are better than other Windows
> > programs.
>
> > Office got to be king because it's competitors sat on their laurels and
> > didn't improve their products, or didn't do so in a timely manner.
>
> What you meant to say, im quite certian, was this:
>
> "it's competitors sat on their laurels and didnt release a new version
> every 3 months whether there were improvements or not, and create a
> little clickety button for *everything* and instead kept things in
> menus where windows users (but not mac or unix) couldnt find
> them".
>
Whatever - as marketing, it worked. Whether it's better doesn't really
matter.
> -----.
--
James A. Robertson
Technical Product Manager (Smalltalk), Cincom
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
------------------------------
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