Linux-Advocacy Digest #434, Volume #29 Tue, 3 Oct 00 20:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (T. Max Devlin)
Re: How low can they go...? ("Simon Cooke")
Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop ("Colin R. Day")
Re: How low can they go...? ("Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (T. Max Devlin)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes ("Joseph T. Adams")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (T. Max Devlin)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Roberto
Alsina)
Re: Never tell me again that Windows is easy to install!!! It's a lie! (JoeX1029)
Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes) (Donovan Rebbechi)
PRE-RELEASE/PRE-ANNOUNCEMENT: NDOS Technical Library Available ("ASTI Software &
Consulting")
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Donovan Rebbechi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:25:18 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Richard in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>> >> I did. It's just crap. Retrodictions have zero scientific value.
>> >
>> >Then neither do predictions.
>>
>> Predicting what you don't know is the single most important measure of
>> science's value.
>
>Wrong. Science's most important, in fact *only*, measure of value is
>explanatory power. The value of prediction lies only in the fact that
>many humans don't recognize bullshit when they see it and fool themselves
>into accepting theories with little or no explanatory power. IOW, the
>value of prediction derives entirely from the value of explanation!
The reason explanatory power is important is because only through
empirical predictions can the truth of a hypothesis be tested. Science
is empirical discovery, not a narrative.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:20:36 -0700
"Jonathan Revusky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Simon Cooke wrote:
> >
> > "Jonathan Revusky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > "James A. Robertson" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Peter van der Linden wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > James A. Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >You haven't mentioned the main reason I stopped arguing - Mr.
Revusky
> > is
> > > > > >tiresome. He has one mode (non listening attack), and I got real
> > tired
> > > > > >of that real fast.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is pretty clear to most people that the real reason you
> > > > > won't debate the matter is that you do not have the intellectual
> > > > > depth behind your "gut feelings".
> > > >
> > > > Hmm - yet another brilliant response. I can add you to my personal
list
> > > > of tiresome people.
> > >
> > > Yeah, I hear ya. People who say what they think honestly and
> > > forthrightly really can be tiresome, can't they?
> >
> > The two are not mutually exclusive. Especially as you can say what you
think
> > honestly and forthrightly and still be wrong.
>
> Oh yeah, sure. A pathological liar can also tell the truth by accident.
> You know, he says something that he is sure is a lie and it turns out
> that the guy is actually saying something that's true despite himself!
>
> We're all prone to error. But still, that some people are liars and some
> people are truthful is an important and useful distinction, don't you
> think?
>
> So yeah, all of that could be a useful clarification about life in
> general, I guess. Do you have anything further to add about this, Simon?
Certainly. PVDL would appear to be a liar so far. First of all his claim
about the PI, which he waved off as an "experiment". Secondly, that he had
shares in Braemar Inc.'s holding company. Thirdly that there is some kind of
causal link between the Braemar Inc. website being supposedly down and
Gary's posts.
Simon
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:25:40 -0400
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > James Stutts wrote:
> >
> > > How is the lack of driver support with some hardware (all my stuff is
> > > supported with release drivers) Microsoft's fault?
> >
> > Good question. Never mind the fact that the identical claim is the most
> often
> > "criticism" voiced by people who want to spread anti-Linux FUD.
>
> The problem with Linux and hardware is that the vast majority of drivers for
> Linux are not written by the vendor, but by the Linux kernel developers (or
> as contributions to them). So in the case of Linux, it usually *IS* Linux's
> fault when drivers are bad. In the case of MS, most drivers are written by
> the hardware vendors, and thus it's their fault when the drivers are bad.
So because Microsoft can't be bothered writing drivers, it escapes the blame?
Can't Microsoft write drivers?
Besides, does this mean that Linux deserves credit for good drivers?
Colin Day
------------------------------
From: "Jon A. Maxwell (JAM)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: 3 Oct 2000 23:39:11 GMT
Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (comp.lang.java.advocacy)
| "James A. Robertson" wrote:
|> Peter van der Linden wrote:
|> >
|> > [...] I do somewhat resent you misrepresenting the situation in
|> > this way. [...] Do you think that somehow Gary Van Sickle had
|> > an unlimited right to make libellous accusations from his
|> > anonymous account?
Peter, there's no "unlimited right to make libellous accusations"
anonymously and I don't recall anybody here arguing over that except
Revusky. That's his straw-man that he keeps beating, and then claiming
victory over.
|> Nope. I state that you going after him at his place of work is
|> uncalled for. There are procedures for harrassment cases; they
|> involve civil courts.
|
| [...] the first step in suing somebody is that they have to have
| been "served" with the summons [...] likely [...at their] place of
| work. [But you said harassing a guy at work was uncalled for,
| wasn't that just blather?]
The difference is that the officer of the court, 'harasses' the guy
at work instead of the private citizen. It's proper for the officer,
not proper for the private citizen. ObJava, this is similar to when
unpriveledged code calls a method which uses a PriveledgedAction to
perform an action the calling code could (should) not do.
Simon Cooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (comp.lang.java.advocacy)
|"Jonathan Revusky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
|> "James A. Robertson" wrote:
|> >
|> > Nope. I don't suppose that it occurred to you that I just got
|> > tired of you? You [Revusky] don't discuss; you name call.
|>
|> [...] lying your head off. [...] when you claim that I presented
|> no arguments, and was merely name-calling, you are [blatantly]
|> lying [...] utterly ridiculous distortion of reality [...]
|> feeble-minded individuals such as yourself [...] [you] can be
|> intelligent in certain narrow fields, I guess
See below.
T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (comp.lang.java.advocacy)
|Said Jonathan Revusky in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
|>
|> Just now, he accused me of "ad hominem". The ad hominem fallacy
|> consists of attacking the person rather than his arguments. [...]
|
| Ad hominem is a tricky thing.
Ad homimen is simply "A phrase applied to an argument or
appeal founded on the preferences or principles of a particular
person rather than on abstract truth or logical cogency." (OED 2nd
edition)
In the past, in comp.lang.java.advocacy, Revusky regularly added ad
hominem attacks to his arguments, apparently believing that applying
it to an argument (often to "cause [...] psychic pain") converts it
from something to be shunned in a discussion to something perfectly
reasonable and proper. This is what he means, above, when he says
"was merely name-calling". Mr. Robertson is justified, IMO, claiming
that he just didn't want to discuss with Revusky; it is tiring, for
the reason he mentions.
Jam (address rot13 encoded)
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:41:40 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Richard in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>> >Yeah, like *whom*? Me and a whole dozen other people?
>>
>> You should release an application aimed at end users sometime, and have actual
>> end users use it.
>
>I will, I'm just not deluded enough to believe that I will gain many users.
>Since there are thousands of Unix users and probably *none* of them will
>become *my* users (except for me), just who is it that I should listen to?
Why not? We're assuming, I guess, that you're designing a system that
won't suck, at least in your opinion. If you opinion is so unique and
unrelated to what makes an OS useful that nobody else would find benefit
in your system, it will suck. If it doesn't suck, other people will
want to use it. I'm all for recognizing the value of not trying to
design a single product which will work for all users; I'd much rather
see a dozen or more interoperable OSes being used than any one, even
Linux.
The problem is that you can't get beyond arguing rather pedantically
(and insultingly) about all these 'superior intellectual theories'
you're supposedly basing your thinking on, and seem rather reticent to
state your claim and explain the value of your system or your approach.
If we can get past, for the moment, the fact that your aim has been to
denigrate Unix, rather than promote your alternative, let's take the
issue of the only feature which you've conventionally explained:
orthogonal persistence.
As I mentioned recently, I've heard of other computer scientists which
believe that this would be the correct way to design an operating
system. But when the subject comes up, and the inevitable debate
starts, you don't provide an ongoing rant presenting the lengths to
which you've thought the issue through, and relate other benefits which
result from or contribute to this feature, and discuss why such a model,
outside of the preconceptions of people who have become familiar with
the Unix model. Instead you say something like "you've proven you're a
clueless moron, blah blah blah" and go on about the most esoteric
existentialist philosophy/mathematics/cognitive science crud that you
can find.
You really are starting to get boring, sonny. I thought the extended
email conversation where you tried this with me might have taught you
something. Apparently you're unaware of just how pig-headed Roberto can
be, or how amusing it is how easily even he can show your regard for
empirical truth to be nill.
But its rather entertaining watching, so forgive the interruption.
Still, it might be even more entertaining, if slightly less of a
spectacle, to discuss alternative OS models and why Unix is not ideal in
all circumstances.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
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------------------------------
From: "Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: 3 Oct 2000 23:41:51 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Matthias Warkus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: This phrase of yours translates to following axioms:
: - There are "normal people" like you, and there is "lowlife".
: - Of course all people are born unequal, since for example the
: children of "lowlife" don't deserve surviving (your kids probably
: do).
: - Corollary: "Lowlife" deserves to die.
: This is social Darwinism in its purest form. Maybe it's because you
: Americans have got neither history nor memory that you simply don't
: get what this kind of ideology inevitably leads to.
The people who just don't understand where this kind of bigotry leads
scare me a little.
The people who DO understand the logical and inevitable outcome of
bigotry, and want precisely that outcome, scare me a LOT.
Joe
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:44:48 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Richard in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" wrote:
>> Said Richard in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> >Automated stock trading system, you nitwit.
>>
>> Automated anything systems are merely the algorithmic repetition of a
>> human's decision making (the programmer, who is in some form at some
>> time paid by the corporation to write the system.
>
>But not at the time that the decision is actually made. Or are you
>claiming that he's there "in spirit"?
No, he's there at the time the decision is actually being made: when he
programs what result the decision will have, and how the decision will
be made, and whether there is a decision.
>If I read a book and follow its advice, just who is performing decisions?
Me.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
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------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:43:34 -0400
WickedDyno wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "Joseph T. Adams" wrote:
> > >
> > > In comp.os.linux.advocacy Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > : On 1 Oct 2000 15:13:23 GMT, Joseph T. Adams wrote:
> > > :>In comp.os.linux.advocacy JS/PL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > :>In many urban areas in the U.S., urban decay, crime, and the
> > > :>middle-class flight syndrome (often mistakenly labeled "white
> > > :>flight")
> > >
> > > : How mistaken is the label ? I was in Newark NJ for a while, and I
> > > : remember
> > > : walking along crowded streets where I was the only "white person" (
> > > : whatever
> > > : that means ) in sight. Of course, it's also true that all the middle
> > > : class
> > > : African Americans who used to live there also seem to have packed
> > > : their
> > > : bags and moved to the suburbs.
> > >
> > > That is precisely the difference. It isn't that white people don't
> > > want to live in terrible areas, but, rather that NO ONE wants to live
> > > in those areas. All but the very poorest leave.
> > >
> > > For a variety of reasons, most of which are not their fault, Black and
> > > Hispanic and other minority citizens are greatly overrepresented in
> >
> > Low-IQ correlates with low incomes and unemployment.
>
> IQ correlates even more strongly with education.
Of course... retards generally don't make it into college.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
http://directedfire.com/greatgungiveaway/directedfire.referrer.fcgi?2632
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (D) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:50:20 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Christopher Smith in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
[...]
>Oh, come on Erik, it's much more entertaining to get Max so exasperated by
>constantly requesting he prove his outlandish claims so that he killfiles
>you :).
That won't get you killfiled.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
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------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 20:55:25 -0300
El mar, 03 oct 2000, Richard escribió:
>Roberto Alsina wrote:
>> So what? The actions of a person can last longer than the person himself.
>> If I kill a person, he will stay dead after I am dead, and his death will still
>> be my action.
>
>It's the *corporation* that decided to use the automated stock trading
>system, NOT the bozo who created the system, nor the bozo who installed
>it, nor the bozo who's maintaining it!
But the bozo who decided that such a system should exist and perform that task?
>If you manufacture a fridge then sell it to me and install it in my home,
>are *you* the one that's refrigerating my food for me??
No, you are.
>> >You're a fucking moron. Those "someones" are not part of the corporation
>> >(they may not even exist anymore) but the robot is!
>>
>> So, the robot is welding because it's his will to weld, you say. Excuse me
>> while I snort.
>
>The robot is an extension of the corporation and it welds because it is
>the corporation's will.
According to the definition of will you gave before, the robot's control
program has will of its own that causes it to weld.
>> >Not reducible *at all*! Not anymore than evolutionary theory is
>> >reducible to physics.
>>
>> Indeed it is. Specifically to random mutations, probably caused by replication
>> errors, in occasion caused by radiation.
>
><sigh> Learn something about the philosophy of science some day.
Perhaps if you said something of substance beyond insults, I would care about
your opinon.
>> >And if the hammer falls down on a nail without your knowledge
>> >then are you still hammering it because you left it in a position
>> >such that it might fall?
>>
>> Let's put it this way: if you put your mother's vase in the edge of the table,
>> and it crashes, is it your action of the floor's?
>
>And if someone opened a window that let in the gust of wind that
>caused it to crash, then is it still my action that caused it to
>fall?
Your imprudence caused the fall. Just ask your mother.
>Stock trading systems exist because it is the corporation's will.
No, it's the manager's will that the corporation shall have such a thing.
[snip]
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JoeX1029)
Subject: Re: Never tell me again that Windows is easy to install!!! It's a lie!
Date: 03 Oct 2000 23:54:14 GMT
and you have nearly the ram req. you need at least 512 to run if you wanna use
Winblowme:-)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Off-topic Idiots (Was Bush v. Gore on taxes)
Date: 4 Oct 2000 00:01:51 GMT
On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 23:05:33 GMT, Marty wrote:
>> Now that's what I call a Tholen-war.
>
>On what basis do you make this claim?
On the basis that it satisfies the definition of the term previously
posted.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: "ASTI Software & Consulting" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: PRE-RELEASE/PRE-ANNOUNCEMENT: NDOS Technical Library Available
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 00:02:32 GMT
What is NDOS?
A new operating system which will support OS/2, DOS, Win16, Win32,
and Linux natively without the fallacies of it's predecessors.
When will NDOS become available?
Send e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with 'NDOS Availability' on
the subject line to be included on our mailing list for periodic
updates.
What incentives are given if I purchase the Technical Library today?
You will receive automatic updates, if any, and a complimentary
unrestricted copy of the full version of NDOS.
How do I order the Technical Library
Follow the link,
http://www.ccnow.com/cgi-local/cart.cgi?astisc_NDOSTL_continue-page
I have additional questions?
Send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Posting in this forum does not guarantee a response.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: 4 Oct 2000 00:09:45 GMT
On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 19:43:34 -0400, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>WickedDyno wrote:
>> > Low-IQ correlates with low incomes and unemployment.
>>
>> IQ correlates even more strongly with education.
>
>Of course... retards generally don't make it into college.
It's dangerous to attempt to infer causality ( in either direction )
from correlations. Correlations are easy to get ( they only rely on
reasonable sampling methods ), but causality requires interpretation
of the data, and people tend to conveniently interpret data in whatever
way suits their argument.
--
Donovan
------------------------------
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