Linux-Advocacy Digest #692, Volume #29 Mon, 16 Oct 00 18:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why the Linonuts fear me (2:1)
Re: Why the Linonuts fear me (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: Microsoft kicked off the Web! (Nick Condon)
Re: Microsoft kicked off the Web! (Josiah Fizer)
Re: Suggestions for Linux (2:1)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? ("Vann")
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: I'd rather switch than fight. (2:1)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
Re: Why the Linonuts fear me (root)
Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux? (root)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Richard)
Re: Ms employees begging for food ("Drestin Black")
Re: Astroturfing ("Drestin Black")
Re: Why does Linux have to be such a pain to install? - A speech (Brendan Heading)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why the Linonuts fear me
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:06:06 +0100
Matthias Warkus wrote:
>
> It was the Mon, 16 Oct 2000 00:46:25 GMT...
> ...and [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Married with 3 kids?
>
> Yeah sure, Steve.
>
> mawa
> --
> To craunch a marmoset.
> -- Pedro Carolino, "English as She is Spoke"
You give me a troll. He have bad looks. Give me another. I will not
that!
-Ed
--
Konrad Zuse should recognised. He built the first | Edward Rosten
binary digital computer (Z1, with floating point) the | Engineer
first general purpose computer (the Z3) and the first | u98ejr@
commercial one (Z4). | eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Subject: Re: Why the Linonuts fear me
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:18:35 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Mikey
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Tue, 17 Oct 2000 00:30:00 -0400
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] drooled:
>
>> I intend to be Linux's worst enemy.
>
>Get a life! What did Linux ever do to you? :P
MSFT: 52-week high: 119 15/16, 52-week low 49 9/16, today's close 50 1/16
or so.
No doubt a part of this is because of reduced expectations from the
fallout from the DoJ suit, but I suspect the popularity of Linux
may have something to do with this.
:-)
>
>Did you have the hots for Linus Torvalds, and he wanted nothing to do
>with you, so you're going to rag his kernel?
>
>It must be nice being all unemployed with nothing better to do than
>troll newsgroups and watch day-time talk shows. :P
"Linus Torvalds, today on Geraldo"? :-)
[.sigsnip]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:20:04 +0100
From: Nick Condon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft kicked off the Web!
Otto wrote:
> The industry started out with Unix and along came NT beating the crap out of
> the "xNIX". When the 64-bit version of NT becomes available sometimes in the
> next year, it'll be lights out for the "xNIX". All of the "real
> professionals" will be flipping burgers somewhere and they can keep
> wondering about what hit them.
>
> Otto
Oh no! Unix is going to die! Nobody has ever said that about Unix before, oh
wait a minute yes they have: every 6 months since about 1972.
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: Josiah Fizer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft kicked off the Web!
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:23:33 -0700
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nick Condon wrote:
> Otto wrote:
>
> > The industry started out with Unix and along came NT beating the crap out of
> > the "xNIX". When the 64-bit version of NT becomes available sometimes in the
> > next year, it'll be lights out for the "xNIX". All of the "real
> > professionals" will be flipping burgers somewhere and they can keep
> > wondering about what hit them.
> >
> > Otto
>
> Oh no! Unix is going to die! Nobody has ever said that about Unix before, oh
> wait a minute yes they have: every 6 months since about 1972.
And I could have sworn this Sun Sparc Ultra system and this SGI on my desk where
allready 64bit.
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Suggestions for Linux
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:22:53 +0100
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
> on Mon, 16 Oct 2000 01:39:49 +0100
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> >>
> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote
> >> on Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:57:40 +0100
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> >> According to Yahoo (and "SHELL EXTENSION CITY"), the DOOM System
> >> >> Administration Tool is at
> >> >> http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/
> >> >> which timed out when I tried to fetch it. I know of no mirrors.
> >> >
> >> >I got 200k/s out of that site :-) If you want a copy email me, and I
> >> >could email it to you.
> >>
> >> Might have been a temporary glitch; it's working fine now.
> >
> >
> >I've just turned it in to a useful tool --- it can't kill itself.
> >
> >install the sources.
> >
> >open pr_process.c
> >change line 733 so it says "kill -s SIGINT %d" as opposed to "kill -9
> >%d"
> >open i_main.c
> >put in these lines before D_DoomMain() :
> >
> > static struct sigaction act;
> > ...
> >
> > act.sa_handler = SIG_IGN;
> > sigfillset(&(act.sa_mask));
> > sigaction(SIGINT, &act, NULL);
> >
> >Now that it can't kill itself, it is much more useful.
> One can also compare m_pid to getpid(), of course; that might
> be slightly simpler. :-) But it's a thought.
Could do. I only spent 5 minutes on it (a couple of simple greps). I
think it syes the system() call to invoke ps. A little inefficient IMO.
I think they should fork of a wrapper to ps and communicate with pipes
to prevent it jerking around too much.
> Mind you, I'm going to have to work on it a bit; apparently
> the patches don't match up with my sources (I'm using "BOOM",
> a modified DOOM engine that has some very nice features,
> most notably a variable-sized view window).
I'm using lxdoom/lsdoom. It's very nice. I think I have boo under DOS.
Does that allow looking up/down with the mouse and mouse aiming?
> I'd also like to combine the two. DOOM when I want to play,
> but DOOM -sysmanage or something equally silly when I want
> to play system manager. Or something equally silly.
It is quite good fun slaughtering xeyes!
> Looks like I've a little work ahead of me. Oh well. :-)
It's always best to su to someone else before playing otherwise... bye
bye X!
-Ed
--
Konrad Zuse should recognised. He built the first | Edward Rosten
binary digital computer (Z1, with floating point) the | Engineer
first general purpose computer (the Z3) and the first | u98ejr@
commercial one (Z4). | eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: "Vann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:34:29 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Tell that to your boss when you hand in your report and it looks like
> crap, all because you used Linux and he, along with the rest of the
> world, is using Word.
>
> Maybe Linus will give you a job at Transmeta.
<snip>
This is nonsense. I write up reports all the time using a combination of
GNUmeric and AbiWord, and nobody has mentioned my reports looking like
"crap."
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:40:29 GMT
"Donal K. Fellows" wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "Donal K. Fellows" wrote:
> >> In Java primitive types are objects, but instances of those types are
> >> not objects. Lose one point for lack of reading comprehension.
> >
> > This, of course, is total bullshit.
>
> No. The fact that you are too cranially challenged to realise it is
> *your* problem though, not mine. If you want to charge round USENET
> claiming that black is white, you're going to end up looking like a
> complete chump in front of *millions* of smart people...
And billions of idiots who will then go on to gleefully attack me as
cranially challenged ....
> > 1) primitive types are not objects. What the class are they
> > supposed to be of anyways?
>
> The primitive types *are* (singleton) instances of java.lang.Class as
> are all Java types. Hence, the primitive types are objects since they
> satisfy the definition of a class object.
Like hell. Can you instanciate a new 'primitive type class' object and
have it work as a class? Being an instance of class Class is completely
superficial; if I created a whole bunch of house objects and then created
a House class that had no relation *at all* to the house objects then in
what fucking way is House the class of the house objects? Because it has
the same fucking name?? Because I *say so*?? Can you ask a primitive type
class for all its instances in the system (you say they're singletons,
then what are their instances?)? Can you ask a primitive type for its
class? Well, gee, you can't because they're not even fucking objects:
so just what the fuck is a "primitive type class" a class *OF*??
> > 2) instances of those types are not objects either.
>
> I didn't say they were. You seem fundamentally determined to view
So just what is a primitive type class a class *of*??
"primitive type" is not a free name that you can bind at will. You can't
simply create a class named "primitive type" and then claim that this is
sufficient to make primitive types into objects. That's like saying to a
farmer that you have a cow because you've created a class named "cow" in
your computer and have instantiated it a number of times. The fact that
I name a variable "two" says absolutely nothing about the contents of that
variable and hence its mathematical properties. I could go on to define
it to be equal to some other number. The fact that some moron made a bunch
of "primitive type" classes doesn't mean jack to what people refer to by
the term "primitive type".
If you can't ask a class object to create new instances of that class
(the clearest proof that it is in fact related to objects of that class)
then the VERY LEAST you should be able to do is to ask that class object
to return an *already existing* instance of that class and/or ask the
object to point you to its class.
That's how it works in Smalltalk. I can't create a new "nil" object but
I can ask it for its class and get UndefinedObject. And I can ask its
class for allInstances and I get back a collection containing only "nil"!
(Unfortunately, if you ask the class SmallInteger for all its instances
in Smalltalk, it returns a collection containing nothing. Probably because
there are 1,073,741,823 different instances of SmallInteger in the system
so responding to that message would immediately eat up a gig of RAM. Of
course, you can still ask individual small integers for their class.)
> everyone else on comp.os.linux.advocacy as your intellectual inferior
Nope. Just you, Roberto, Dan, Jedi and Perry. Donovan isn't intellectually
inferior, just emotionally so (as is Dan for that matter). That's hardly
the only people I've met on the newsgroup, just the people stupid enough
to argue with me on such utterly stupid topics.
You accuse me of being intellectually challenged and then go on to confuse
the label attached to an object with the actual properties of this object.
I don't understand why people make it so convenient for me to demolish
their arguments. I see it over and over, people just shooting themselves
in the foot, and it's quite perplexing.
> in the face of evidence that you're way out of your depth. Think you,
> in the bowels of Christ, that you might be doing something stupid?
> (Which is a wonderful misquote; 1 point for the attributed original!)
I don't hang out with religious people. And even if I did, I'd stay
away from scatalogical religious literature.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 20:36:06 GMT
In article <1YHG5.1492$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Grant Edwards) wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >Tell that to your boss when you hand in your report and it
> >looks like crap, all because you used Linux and he, along with
> >the rest of the world, is using Word.
>
> Sorry to burst your bubble, but MS Word output _is_ crap. Ask
> anybody with a modicum of typesetting experience to take a look
> at something produced with MS Word. After they stop laughing
> they'll explain to you the many, many in which MS Word is
> incapable of producing professional looking output (e.g. lack
> of kerning and ligatures).
Agreed. When I was doing government transcripts for a while there, we'd
use Word for all the word-processing, and our draft output looked
pretty amateurish. When we needed to port the thing into actual layout
software, the whole .doc file format went out the window (we saved as
RTF, XML support being non-existent back then (ie: a year ago)).
There's a big ol' list of things Word can't do, or does really really
strangely.
It might make a decent report generator, though, if you don't really
care what the thing looks like...
-ws
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I'd rather switch than fight.
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:45:54 +0100
rich wrote:
>
> Also schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>
> >> BTW I didn't ask for a tutorial I KNOW how it works. Sorry you spent
> >> so much time on it. Save it though it might come in handy some day.
> >Oh, sorry.
>
> Don't fret, I found it helpful.
Thanks
-Ed
--
Konrad Zuse should recognised. He built the first | Edward Rosten
binary digital computer (Z1, with floating point) the | Engineer
first general purpose computer (the Z3) and the first | u98ejr@
commercial one (Z4). | eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:03:59 GMT
"Donal K. Fellows" wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I don't believe classes should exist in the system at all. New
> > objects should be created by copying prototypes.
>
> That depends on your type-system and to what degree it is leveraged to
> improve performance; if you can statically prove that all the objects
> provided as a particular formal parameter will support a certain
> method, you do not need to include a dynamic (run-time) check for the
> existence of that method. Removing these checks makes for a nice
> speed gain, especially in tight loops.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Do you even know what *I'm* talking about?
Prototypes versus classes is independent of anything else, including
static versus dynamic typing. Omega is a statically typed prototype-based
language.
> > But *if* classes have to exist (and they don't) then classes have to
> > be objects and you create classes by sending messages to other class
> > objects.
>
> You can do this in Java (well, if you substitute "call a method" for
> "send a message", but that's just syntax) and many people take
> advantage of this, since dynamic class creation is definitely fun...
No, it's not. Nobody on the Smalltalk side does this kind of crap (*).
The only reason Java people do it is because Java doesn't have any
BlockClosure class that lets them create lambdas at will so they have
to fuck with anonymous classes instead.
A Java victim has to write:
new Function2Arg() {public Object valueWith_with (Object a, Object b) {
return (String) a + (String) b; }}
where a Smalltalk user would write:
[:a :b | a,b]
and this is literal since the comma is the concatenation method in ST!
Whoo whee, ain't anonymous classes fun Jebediah?
*: unless they're writing a System Browser.
------------------------------
From: root <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why the Linonuts fear me
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:14:21 GMT
Unfortunately for you, I don't fear you. What company did you work for
when you got all this wonderful "knowledge"?
I have been using SuSE Linux for around a week (just upgraded from
Mandrake) and you don't hear me going around revving up the usenet,
crapping on about "20 years ago I was using punch cards" as a
justification for anecdotal "knowledge". Although I may be in my early
20s at least before I open my big gab that I actually have some facts to
back up what I am saying. My father used to work for Burroughs
Computers (bought out by UNISYS in the late 1960s-70s) prefers to use
Linux instead of Windows 98 as it is more stable and he can bring home
sensitive documents from work (he is in the army) and know that no one
else can view them as he can save it under his own account. One could
say that he should move to Windows 2000, however, when running it on a
Pentium 200 MMX w/64MB Ram it becomes very slow. When running Linux,
however, even after booting there is still 32MB free.
Here is where I see the Linux community in around 3 years:
1. A standardised desktop has arisen, most likely GNOME as many
commercial UNIX vendors and Linux distributions favour it over KDE and
other available desktops.
2. Installation has become easier, from my experience, the latest SuSE
Linux was as trouble free as my Windows 2000 installation, setting up
additional stuff was made easy with YAST2, most ditro's are making
configuring easier, but there is still more work to be done (especially
in the upgrading the kernel and applications).
3. The Linux Standard Base will be finally ratified and all
distributions adopt this standard.
4. More software and hardware company's jump on the Linux bandwagon. I
would really like to see Lotus Smart Suite ported to Linux one day.
Matt
------------------------------
From: root <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Is there a MS Word (or substitute) for Linux?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:23:07 GMT
Ask them to send it in RTF, the result being little or no formating
loss.
matt
jazz wrote:
>
> In article <qEqG5.3541$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Jan
> Schaumann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, then you probably want to take a look at
> > -abiword
> > -StarOffice (BLOATware)
> > -ApplixWare (payware)
> >
> > Or you can just distribute your documents as pdf's...
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -Jan
>
> Please tell me more. For example, I just wrote a paper with someone in LA.
> I'm in New Jersey. I wrote a draft, emailed it to them, they revised it,
> resent it to me, I revised and made additions, sent it back, he revised,
> and I sent some additional parts, he put it all together, and sent it out
> to all the other authors, as a word attachment they all can read and make
> changes to.
>
> So these would have to import/export files in word-readible format.
>
> Can they do that? I doubt Bill would put up with that, and would instruct
> his minions to make a couple of tweaks in Word for insurance.
>
> Thanks
> Jim
------------------------------
From: Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:26:42 GMT
"Donal K. Fellows" wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > If you can't instantiate it then what makes int an instance
> > of that class ??
>
> I can't instantiate new members of the class of Stellar Bodies, but
> that doesn't mean that "Stellar Bodies" cannot be considered to be an
> (epistemological) class.
>
> There is, of course, the whole question of what "creating a new int"
> actually means anyway. In computing terms, the closest I can get is
> by performing some calculation (e.g. 6 * 9) and getting a result
> (e.g. 42) but even there you are not really creating a new value,
> since insofar as 42 exists at all, it exists independently of what
> calculations I (or my proxies) perform.
There is no ambiguity in Smalltalk. All > 1 billion instances of
SmallInteger are unique already existing objects in the system.
And I can add new methods to SmallInteger at will. Can you say the
same for the 'int' class?
> > Besides, "int" is not an object, it's a type. Individual ints might
> > be considered objects if they had a class but they don't.
>
> All types are objects, though they are not usually referred to as such
> for syntactic reasons; parsers are more easily written when they are
> separate. Of course, you're not going to understand what I'm talking
> about here Ricky...
Oh, I understand completely Donny, I just think it's completely absurd.
Saying that types are objects makes even less sense than saying that
conceptual classes of physical objects (there is nothing particularly
epistemological about them) are physical objects.
Does it make any sense to you to be able to say "I declare this variable
to be object int"? Just what the fuck is that supposed to mean?
The fact that Smalltalk has a language construct analogous to conceptual
classes (and frequently confused for it) is a MISTAKE! The more one
thinks about the issue, the more one realizes it's nonsense. Saying that
sending new to a "class" object "instantiates" that class is nonsense
if by "that class" you mean the /object/ of the same name (and this is
indeed what most people mean). But at least, it's *useful* because you
can create new classes and add new methods to those classes. Can you
create new primitive types or change their methods? Does it even mean
anything to change the methods of a primitive type? It would have to
mean changing its interface or something similar ....
------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ms employees begging for food
Date: 16 Oct 2000 16:32:10 -0500
"Thomas Lee [MVP]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <39ea184b$0$14033$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Drestin Black
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
> >After reading this:
> >
> >http://www.nwlink.com/~rodvan/microsoft/stripper.html
> >
> >I have decided I really DO want to work there!
>
> Sadly - I sure never saw any of it...
>
neither did I but I'd go back to find the woman in the FM pumps :)
------------------------------
From: "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Astroturfing
Date: 16 Oct 2000 16:35:11 -0500
"Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8sd7b3$1vd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <39e7dbae$0$42822$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Drestin Black" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > Conversely, I've never met a 3rd year computer engineering student
> who had
> > > a hope in the world of making more money than a 17 year old sysadmin
> in
> > boston.
> >
> > amazingly, I concur with abracadabra on this one.
> >
>
> In your wet dreams, Dristan.
>
wow - truth hurts? Dristan - that was almost funny...
------------------------------
From: Brendan Heading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Linux have to be such a pain to install? - A speech
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:11:09 +0100
In article <dofG5.1176$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Erik Funkenbusch
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>2) What you're talking about is not the PnP spec, nor was it something MS
>changed. What you're talking about is ACPI. Many motherboards had faulty
>ACPI bioses that claimed they were ACPI but weren't fully compliant. Since
>Win95 didn't support ACPI, it never saw any problems. Win98 did support ACPI
>though, and would lock up the system when it tried to use the faulty ACPI
>bios.
We're clutching straws here, but in defence of W98, it only enables ACPI
where you have a *known good* ACPI bios in your machine. Microsoft claim
that the Soyo bios in my current Celeron box isn't ACPI compliant (Soyo
say it is) so both W98 and W2K refuse to use the ACPI features.
--
Brendan Heading, Belfast, Northern Ireland
Tús maith leath na hoibre...
------------------------------
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