Linux-Advocacy Digest #693, Volume #29 Mon, 16 Oct 00 19:13:06 EDT
Contents:
Re: Suggestions for Linux (root)
Re: Convince me to run Linux? (Craig Kelley)
Re: which OS is best? ("Doc Wally")
Re: Claire Lynn (Jacques Guy)
Re: Why the Linonuts fear me ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: which OS is best? (Jeffster)
Re: Linux Sucks (Brendan Heading)
Re: David T. Johnson lies again (Marty)
Re: The Power of the Future! (Marty)
Re: David T. Johnson lies again ("David T. Johnson")
Re: which OS is best? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? ("Weevil")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: root <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Suggestions for Linux
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 10:38:31 +1300
unicat wrote:
>
> At the risk of providing fuel for the Wintrolls, I am posting some
> friendly criticism of Linux and the Gnome/KDE GUIs.
> (Notice to Microsoft, you can't copyright any of these ideas,
> I am hereby copyrighting c2000
> them and placing them in the public domain)
>
> Linux will never complete its dominance of the computing world
> if we are simply striving to be "as good as" Windows. We must set
> our sights on an OS that is not just more reliable, but much much
> easier to use than MS if we are going to see continued adoption of Linux
>
> on the desktop. Along these lines, here are some suggestions:
>
> 1) We need to kill off the "Cult of UNIX" mentality.
> There are too many Linux advocates who are old-line UNIX
> gurus, who believe in the "users should have to earn the right to
> use a computer" ethic. You can see this in the LPI and Redhat
> certification, where the text command line rules supreme. The
> attitude seems to be "If you really want to use Linux, we'll force
> you to learn the bourne shell -bwah-hah-hah-hah!" This anti-social
> elitist mindset is CRIPPLING linux, and we desperately, desperately
> need to eliminate it!
So I am not special? Yes users should bloody earn the right to use a
computer because I am always the one who has to fix up peoples bloody
mistakes or answer stupid questions like "how do you format a disk?".
Go on a 18 week computer course then buy a bloody computer instead of
hogging up the telephone line at dell support asking why your drink
holder is not working correctly. :)
> 2) We need to completely eliminate the command line interface.
> That's right. Get rid of it. Anything that can't be done from a
> GUI isn't worth doing. Remove ed,vi,emacs,vim, telnet, rlogin, rsh,
> and especially getty from the distribution package completely.
> Run ppp on all serial lines by default. PCs are cheaper than VT100s,
> and we can use X-windows over ppp instead of curses. To
> replace telnet and rlogin, use an http link and HTML pages that
> use cgi to run commands.
I find the CLI fine and dandy! I have used CLI (AmigaCLI) since I was 8
years old and it is not hard to use, read books and try new commands,
that is how you start the learning process. As for the comment
regarding Telnet, without it, many administration tasks would be
impossible to do remotely.
> 3) We need to add superior functionality to the Linux GUI, like
> the "Halflife" game, with openGL and 3-D icons for linux functions-
>
> a) A restaurant. F'rinstance, you boot linux, and you see a first
> person view of yourself walking into a restaurant. You sit at a
> table, and tux the penguin walks over and hands you a menu. The menu has
> linux programs grouped on pages with clickaable tabs. You click a
> tab for say, graphics, and a page turns to all the graphics programs . You
> click on a menu selection to start up the corresponding function.
> b) An office building. You find yourself walking down a hallway,
> each door leads to either a room or another hallway. Rooms are
> directories with representational 3-D icons for files (like a TV
> for viewing
> animations, or a filing cabinet full of documents, each of which is
>
> a spearate manilla folder). Hallways are directories of
> directories.
> We could produce a tool like a .wad file editor to allow users to
> customize the 3-D environment.
Currently in development, watch this space :)
> 4) DWIM, or Do what I meant -
> Instead of setting up a user interface with the goal of outsmarting
> the user
> and finding clever ways to keep them from doing what they want, make
> the goal
> of the user interface to figure out and implement what the user
> "meant" to do.
> a) Have defaults for everything - paths, settings, verbosity, etc.
> and always fill in the
> defaults for anything the user forgets.
> b) Always warn the user about doing stupid things, like when they
> enter
> * and .txt as spearate files to be removed, when they meant *.txt
> c) Never ever ever ask the user to provide the same information twice
> -
> keep everything they ever tell you in a KEYWORD=value file.
> standardize
> the use of keywords, and always check this file before asking the
> user for some fact.
> d) Run a background process once an hour to check the integrity and
> consistency
> of all configuration files - and fix them so they work.
> e) The ten year old test - If 90% of ten year old kids can use an
> application
> without training - it's user friendly enough to be DWIM.
This is what Windows has, resulting in a bloated, idiot proof OS with
the facilities to allow hackers to access your files, oh goody :)
> 5) Put all files in an associative index which provides the user with
> date, owner, subject,
> occurence of a text string, and filetype clues for finding files,
> which can be used
> instead of a file path whenever a file must be located.
>
> Easy to do? No! But worth doing if we really want Linux to win!
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Convince me to run Linux?
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 16 Oct 2000 15:23:02 -0600
Linux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I really do want to run Linux but I can't find any viable reason to
> switch from Windows ME to Linux?
>
> My Dell comes with Windows ME installed as well as internet access and
> all of the programs, including Quicken, encyclopedias and children's
> scholastic program's all pre installed.
>
> Why should I switch to Linux?
If you want to use UNIX, go ahead
If you don't, then don't.
> I asked Dell about Linux when I placed my order, about 2 weeks ago,
> and they laughed saying that 99 percent of the Linux pre-loads they
> shipped come back with the customers asking for the Windows pre-load
> instead.
I wish all companies would let me take Windows off the order.
Linux is Linux. If you try to make it into Windows, you will fail and
be bitter and come into these newsgroups with rabid posts about how
much Linux sucks.
Personally, I use Linux on my laptop and both my desktops. I don't
miss Windows at all; but then again I only used Windows NT
Workstation/Server 4.0 for about 2 years; previously I had been using
NeXT machines and Powermacs.
Linux is great fun, and it comes with a ton of software that Windows
sorely lacks (at least for *my* desktop needs). It is a lot more
stable than my NT 4.0 box was (I don't know/care about Windows 2000, I
have never used it)
Have fun, regardless!
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: "Doc Wally" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 17:51:34 -0400
Reply-To: "Doc Wally" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Frankly, I think that NO-OS is the best OS ever.
Problem is, it only runs on Et-R-Sketch (If I even spelled it correctly)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:59:06 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Claire Lynn
Matthias Warkus wrote:
> It was the Sun, 15 Oct 2000 22:50:43 GMT...
> ...and [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[a sob story about how she got done for in Germany]
> Heh. This is great. You went to Romania instead of Germany and you
> didn't even notice.
Probably pure fantasy. She started posting here with just
low-level insults ("Arsehole", "Fuck you") which made everyone
think she was yet another snotty brat who'd discovered
how to get attention sitting at a keyboard. Then the tone
changed abruptly, and she claimed to use Windows because
she could be productive in Windows (if memory serves she
claimed she was doing a lot of artwork). But now all she
is productive in is posting, and keeping watch over this
NG, just like good old Hasan B. Mutlu used to on soc.culture.*
for anything having to do with Turkey (but he had it
nicely automated after a while). Must be fantasizing she
is the new Joan of Arc, sent by St William "bouter le Linux
hors du desktop" (pardon my Franglais). Must say that since
she's been around, MSFT shares have been steadily dropping.
Have you seen the latest quote on www.nyse.com? Wow! At it,
girl!
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why the Linonuts fear me
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:52:03 +0100
>Yep. Me too. But you know what? Slackware really sucks as far as what the
>users you allude to want on their desktop. So, there you are.
>
What makes you think everyone wants to run windows on their systems. Are you
stupid enough to believe than 100% of users should use a computer in the
same way, that all users want a system where they lose the configuration for
every program on the system when a single files gets corrupted, that all
users prefer to use a GUI, that all users want to run the same programs on
their systems.
Linux, BSD, BEOS, QNX, and several other less well-known operating systems
are there to give users a choice about what they run on their systems and
help to promote innovation - if everyone were running the same software
where is the incentive to improve anything - we need competition in the
marketplace to keep things improving. Wouldn't you be pissed off if Ford
suddenly decided they would buy up all other car companies and give buyers
only one choice of car to buy or if all your local supermarkets were merged
into the same company who could suddenly sell only low quality food in every
shop and if you didn't like it that would be tough luck as you have no
choice. It is the same with computing.
>> You yo-yo's are so caught up in your own pile of bullshit that you
>> have not a clue as to what the rest of the world wants, needs or is
>> asking for.
>
And presumably they are all asking for the same thing with no alternatives
are they?
>> Think again. You can't even give it away.
>
Slackware, Caldera, Redhat, Mandrake, Storm, SUSE, Debian and many other
companies seem to be doing well enough out of selling it - funny how
multiple companies can make a profit selling something that is also
available for free download when another company can only make a profit by
forcing PC suppliers to OEM bundle their product with the hardware.
>Think of all the burned copies, and cheapbytes and linuxmall cd's sitting
>around.
Think of all the copies of Windows that get bundled with the hardware then
wiped in favour of one of the alternative operating systems.
>I use gnu gcc. But I'm more productive with Borland's turbo C++ from back
>in the early 90's. Plus the documentation is abysmal.
It is compatible with most if not all other standard UNIX compilers so why
not try reading the documentation available for one of the compatible
versions for other operating systems.
Seems strange that multiple versions of Unix can compile the same code yet
different compilers under windows will not compile the same code ( it is
easier to compile a BSD, Solaris, AIX program under linux as long as there
is no assembly code than it is to compile a Microsoft C and Borland C
programs under each-other's compilers - just look how portable the linux
kernel code is for example).
>> Why is it not taking over the desktop?
>
It is - the battle may not be as quick as some would hope but linux is
winning (in japan and china it is easily outselling windows even if you only
count copies sold and ignore multiple installs from same copy and copies
downloaded).
>> You have half assed Windows clones that neither perfom as well nor
>> have the features of the equivilant Windows programs. In some cases
>> you don't have any equivilant at all (a decent browser).
>
And in a lot of cases windows software sucks for the purpose the user wants
to put it to - for example I have installed linux (mandrake 7.1) on the
machine we burn CD's on to make our weekly backups easier - I have written a
scriptfile to scan through subdirectories on the server (NT4 small business
server) and automatically create a kisocd project file containing all
directories created within the last 2 weeks which is then loaded into kisocd
and the CD is reliably burned.
Under windows I have to manually look for all directories and add all dir's
under 2 weeks old to project and burn the CD which wasted 3/4 of an hour
each week (and you say windows is more productive). Also as of last week I
have started burning the data to CD direct from the server via our 100mbs
network which saves 15 minutes for each cd of a 3 cd backup set (machine
time not user time as nobody would have needed to watch the machine for
those 15 minutes). Even when writing on-the-fly the writing buffer didn't
drop below 85% full (under windows it can barely manage this even with image
writing and on-the-fly writing across networks is disabled in all software I
have tried).
For this purpose all windows software I tried sucks and linux rules - again
proving that not everyone uses a machine in the same way.
>Now we REALLY agree on something. Until someone in this open source panecea
>realizes what MS realized years ago; that the internet is the market, then
Didn't bill gates openly say that the internet will never seriously catch
on.
How many users would IE have if it wasn't forcefully installed with the
operating system?
The sales of opera and other non-free browsers proves that IE sucks for a
lot of users otherwise why would they pay to replace something they already
had free with the os?
>> You fear me, because I have the facts, have used Linux and have come
>> to the same conclusion that legions of others have come to. Linux is
>> nice, but Windows is better. I just choose to expose this Linux scam
>> for what it is. A scam.
And per processor licencing to force computer buyers to also buy windows
isn't a scam?
------------------------------
From: Jeffster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.flame.macintosh
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:03:22 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Doc Wally"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Frankly, I think that NO-OS is the best OS ever.
Agreed!
> Problem is, it only runs on Et-R-Sketch (If I even spelled it correctly)
Don't forget pen & paper!
------------------------------
From: Brendan Heading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Sucks
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:01:52 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
>Spoken like a true ex-Linux user.
Or, alternatively, like a true idiot who, instead of researching and
reading up on the subject, just lunged ahead and fired the thing onto
his PC without (as he admits himself) having a clue what it did. You can
hardly say he was a "linux user" at any stage; he found that he couldn't
"use" the thing at all.
--
Brendan Heading, Belfast, Northern Ireland
Tús maith leath na hoibre...
------------------------------
From: Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: David T. Johnson lies again
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:25:44 GMT
"David T. Johnson" wrote:
>
> You have falsely accused me of harassment and denigration of OS/2
> developers. For that, you will have to answer.
Still continuing your harassment? You weren't even being addressed in this
message, David. Put up or shut up already. I'm tired of your continued
harassment.
> Marty wrote:
> >
> > Jeff Glatt wrote:
> > >
> > > >>>>I have never harassed and denigrated OS/2 developers. Please delete
> > > >>>>this post or face the consequences.
> > >
> > > >>> Brad Wardell is an OS/2 developer. Marty Amodeo is an OS/2 developer.
> > >
> > > >> Assuming for argument sake that they are active OS/2 developers,
> > >
> > > >No need to assume in one case.
> > >
> > > >>I have not harassed and denigrated them.
> > >
> > > [Examples of David Johnson's harassment and denigration of active OS/2
> > > developers deleted].
> > >
> > > Marty, let me know wehn you get tired of Johnson's off-topic,
> > > deliberately harassing empty threats. I've been preparing a complaint
> > > to be filed with his ISP, should the need arise to do so, and you're
> > > welcome to contribute directly to it. Johnson already attempted to
> > > harass me by email. I saved evidence of his unsolicited, unwelcome
> > > email to me, and told him that any repeat performance of that would
> > > result in his ISP being contacted and such email delivered as evidence
> > > of his email stalking. Not surprisingly, he hasn't had the nerve to
> > > try emailing me back. (He likes to deliver empty threats in the
> > > newsgroup, and thought that he could get away with blustering his
> > > threats in an email as well. Not to clever, that one). I've already
> > > detailed his off-topic posts, his harassment and denigration of
> > > others, his ignorance of the newsgroup charter and violation of such
> > > in his inept attempt at being the net-cop for COOA, his email
> > > stalking, his threats against others, etc. But anyone who would like
> > > to directly contribute more such evidence to the complaint is welcome
> > > to contact me
> >
> > I appreciate the gesture, but don't feel the need to take any proactive action
> > against Mr. Johnson at this time. He hasn't convinced me that his case has
> > any merit, and until he does, I feel no need to defend myself. Furthermore, I
> > feel that taking such an action against Mr. Johnson myself would go against
> > the points I have been making about him, namely his attempts to silence those
> > whose opinions he doesn't like. I'm more than content to simply ignore his
> > meritless threats.
> >
> > Sorry to hear that you've received unwanted e-mail from him and I'm glad he
> > hasn't tried the same with me. I made my stance on that matter clear to him
> > when he accidentally (or so he claims) e-mailed me a copy of one of our posted
> > correspondences in this forum.
------------------------------
From: Marty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Power of the Future!
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:27:55 GMT
Todd wrote:
>
> Now that Windows 2000 is so way beyond OS/2 in almost every category of
> comparison,
How about deployment in industry?? :-) :-)
------------------------------
From: "David T. Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: David T. Johnson lies again
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 15:41:27 -0400
You have falsely accused me of harassment and denigration of OS/2
developers. For that, you will have to answer.
Marty wrote:
>
> "David T. Johnson" wrote:
> >
> > You have falsely accused me of harassment and denigration of OS/2
> > developers. For that, you will have to answer.
>
> Still continuing your harassment? You weren't even being addressed in this
> message, David. Put up or shut up already. I'm tired of your continued
> harassment.
>
> > Marty wrote:
> > >
> > > Jeff Glatt wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >>>>I have never harassed and denigrated OS/2 developers. Please delete
> > > > >>>>this post or face the consequences.
> > > >
> > > > >>> Brad Wardell is an OS/2 developer. Marty Amodeo is an OS/2 developer.
> > > >
> > > > >> Assuming for argument sake that they are active OS/2 developers,
> > > >
> > > > >No need to assume in one case.
> > > >
> > > > >>I have not harassed and denigrated them.
> > > >
> > > > [Examples of David Johnson's harassment and denigration of active OS/2
> > > > developers deleted].
> > > >
> > > > Marty, let me know wehn you get tired of Johnson's off-topic,
> > > > deliberately harassing empty threats. I've been preparing a complaint
> > > > to be filed with his ISP, should the need arise to do so, and you're
> > > > welcome to contribute directly to it. Johnson already attempted to
> > > > harass me by email. I saved evidence of his unsolicited, unwelcome
> > > > email to me, and told him that any repeat performance of that would
> > > > result in his ISP being contacted and such email delivered as evidence
> > > > of his email stalking. Not surprisingly, he hasn't had the nerve to
> > > > try emailing me back. (He likes to deliver empty threats in the
> > > > newsgroup, and thought that he could get away with blustering his
> > > > threats in an email as well. Not to clever, that one). I've already
> > > > detailed his off-topic posts, his harassment and denigration of
> > > > others, his ignorance of the newsgroup charter and violation of such
> > > > in his inept attempt at being the net-cop for COOA, his email
> > > > stalking, his threats against others, etc. But anyone who would like
> > > > to directly contribute more such evidence to the complaint is welcome
> > > > to contact me
> > >
> > > I appreciate the gesture, but don't feel the need to take any proactive action
> > > against Mr. Johnson at this time. He hasn't convinced me that his case has
> > > any merit, and until he does, I feel no need to defend myself. Furthermore, I
> > > feel that taking such an action against Mr. Johnson myself would go against
> > > the points I have been making about him, namely his attempts to silence those
> > > whose opinions he doesn't like. I'm more than content to simply ignore his
> > > meritless threats.
> > >
> > > Sorry to hear that you've received unwanted e-mail from him and I'm glad he
> > > hasn't tried the same with me. I made my stance on that matter clear to him
> > > when he accidentally (or so he claims) e-mailed me a copy of one of our posted
> > > correspondences in this forum.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: which OS is best?
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:25:55 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Jeffster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Doc Wally"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Frankly, I think that NO-OS is the best OS ever.
>
> Agreed!
>
> > Problem is, it only runs on Et-R-Sketch (If I even spelled it
correctly)
>
> Don't forget pen & paper!
I think Tyra Banks would make a great OS. Probably wouldn't get my
computer to do anything, but I'd sure love reading the manual...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 18:02:16 -0500
Ermine Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:uMYhzwzNAHA.198@cpmsnbbsa07...
> Bogus ... when pressed to actually demonstrate anything that could
validate
> this claim, no one single shred of evidence was able to be presented. The
> facts remain that the price difference was almost always less than 20%
Where do you get this stuff? From the Official Microsoft Propaganda Site?
You say that the price difference was almost always less than 20%, and that
no single shred of evidence was able to be presented that suggested
otherwise (or something or other -- you weren't very clear).
I gave one example where the price difference was 350%. There are many more
examples, and they're all far more than 20% (did Microsoft trot that number
out?). The evidence for this whole issue was: Bill Gates' sworn testimony,
Steve Ballmer's sworn testimony, the sworn testimony of a whole bunch of
senior Microsoft executives, Microsoft's internal emails that were
subpoenaed for the trial, Microsoft's internal memos that were subpoenaed
for the trial, Microsoft's OEM reports that were subpoenaed for the trial,
and the sworn testimony of CEOs and Presidents of the companies Microsoft
did this to.
The only thing they didn't have was a time machine to go back and actually
witness it in person.
But you say there was not a single shred of evidence.
Why?
jwb
------------------------------
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