Linux-Advocacy Digest #887, Volume #29 Sat, 28 Oct 00 05:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: hardware problem (Tim)
Spread the source code of Windows ("Robben Mario")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why don't I use Linux? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Why don't I use Linux? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Spread the source code of Windows (Donn Miller)
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (Anonymous Remailer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 03:51:01 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Weevil in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>Paul 'Z' Ewande© <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:8t0uec$600$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> "T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message news:
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> They really do obsess you, don't they ? Even if Microsoft is a monopoly,
>> they weren't born that way.
>
>In a way, they really were born as a monopoly. When IBM handed them the
>contract to provide an operating system for the upcoming IBM PC, Microsoft
>was transformed from just another software company to a monopoly overnight.
Actually, they were already attempting to monopolize with the ROM BASIC
that they were pushing before the PC.
>> What were the others doing while the field was
>> wide open ?
>
>The field was never wide open. In fact, the field started out restricted by
>contract to one company: Microsoft. The hardware itself was introduced
>with Microsoft's DOS on it. It started out as The Microsoft Monopoly, and
>although they have encountered some resistance along the way, it remains The
>Microsoft Monopoly to this day.
There were two other OS's available bundled with the very very first IBM
PCs. MS-droids would have us believe this constituted a competitive
market, by conveniently presuming that the others were commercially
competitive (MS-DOS was the cheapest) and pretending that they were
offered for longer than they were accepted. MS started monopolizing
with per-processor licensing as early as 1983, from what I've gathered.
[...]
>I would certainly give Microsoft credit for all the marketing it's done,
>though, to increase its customer base and make personal computers less
>"mysterious" to non-technical people.
I wouldn't, as their marketing has done neither. The "less mysterious"
part was simply a deceptive appearance caused by monopolization of the
only commodity hardware platform, and the increase of customer base was
almost entirely accounted for by using FUD to defend the pre-load
monopoly.
[...]
Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 03:53:48 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said JS/PL in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"Weevil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>
>> In a way, they really were born as a monopoly. When IBM handed them the
>> contract to provide an operating system for the upcoming IBM PC, Microsoft
>> was transformed from just another software company to a monopoly overnight.
>
>Think harder.
JS/PL won't get this, as he's blessedly kill-filed me, so could someone
pass the message along?
You should provide more reasonable analysis and information if you want
to try to compel people to "think harder". There isn't really anything
about the situation which this statement refers to which "thinking
harder" would illuminate, on its own. Particularly as you've not even
made a token effort to refute the statement, in this or any other post.
Try harder.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 03:57:35 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Weevil in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>Matt Kennel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> :
>> :I would certainly give Microsoft credit for all the marketing it's done,
>> :though, to increase its customer base and make personal computers less
>> :"mysterious" to non-technical people.
>>
>> What marketing was that exactly?
>>
>> The increase in the customer base is due to Moore's law, and thousands
>> of unheralded semiconductor engineers.
>
>Much of it is, true. But Microsoft staged a humongous media blitz to
>introduce Windows 95 to the world (to cite the biggest example), and this
>resulted in a surge in the rate of new owner buying. I say this confidently
>without ever having seen hard data on it, simply because this is what
>happens when any company in any industry stages even a moderately competent
>media blitz. Advertising works.
You confuse convincing people who are going to buy a computer, due to
the recent and immediate emergence of the modern Internet (WWW) who were
convinced they "had to have" Win95, with convincing people to buy a
computer, because they wanted to have Win95, for reasons attributed
purely to hype.
In short, you confuse the hype with the thing the hype was trying to
take advantage of, and credit for.
>On the other hand, Apple deserves a lot of credit, too, for the same reason.
>They've had some very cool Super Bowl commercials. :)
And no substantial advantage concerning functionality, which is why they
are still successful in selling hardware, but still foundering in
establishing themselves as a 'software developer', even so much as Sun
is. And Sun does a bit better selling hardware, too, I think.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
From: Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: nz.comp
Subject: Re: hardware problem
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 21:06:58 +1300
On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 22:13:47 +1300, Gardiner Family
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I have used Redhat, however, I found it very disappointing that they are not
>supporting resierfs, probably best to either grab a copy of Mandrake from Dick
>Smiths or SuSE 7.0 Pro from Dr Floppy (http://www.drfloppy.co.nz) for around
>$NZ189.95. Both of them support this FS.
>
>matt
Copyleft has Mandrake for $30 (www.copyleft.co.nz) - much better value
IMHO
------------------------------
From: "Robben Mario" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Spread the source code of Windows
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:13:46 GMT
PLEAAAAAAAAAAAASSSEEEEEEEE
I want to see if it's true about the crack. Even some portions of the source
coude would satisfy me.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:17:31 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said George Richard Russell in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, mlw wrote:
>>George Richard Russell wrote:
>>
>>No, but UNIX was designed with the notion that everything would
>>eventually be unlimited and that horizons would stretch.
>
>Unix was designed on the notion that it would be used at dumb
>terminals, connected by serial cable to some machine administered
>by other people.
Or through any other connection to any other thing, though you are
correct that a dumb terminal was the most common mechanism through the
early years of development. Later, it developed the client/server
model, as well, and thus provided what we know today as the Internet.
>Its got cryptic commands, becasue at the time, keyboards were badly
>made and awkward to use - so saving keystrokes was important.
It has a command line interface, because it is much more efficiently,
once you learn a few "cryptic commands" (otherwise known as 'tools', or,
simply, "commands"). Other than FOB-minded newbies, saving keystrokes
(or mouse-strokes, if you're using a GUI) is, in fact, important.
>Its got sparse output, since you may have a glass terminal, but a
>lineprinter was also used as output, and you didn't want to waste paper.
It presumes the operator is not a clueless idiot, and that there is no
reason for confirmations that correct results were achieved.
>The only good things in its design were seperation of the shell,
>multitasking and multiuser and I suppose, portability.
IOW, it has no flaws which you can provide other than the fact that it
is very well designed? And that it still includes some baggage from
"ancient times" when resources were to be conserved?
>>How many driver letters do you have? How many things broke at 512M? How
>>many things broke after 640K
>
>/dev/ad0 is quite fine, thank you.
>I suppose I could add /dev/fd0 and /dev/acd0 to the list.
>
>Unix hardware is not always great either. Sun machines with IDE
>drives, 8 bit video, proprietary peripheral buses etc.
Worth at least twice what a PC was, at the time, because of their
reliability and the fact that Sun supported them.
>PC hardware is shockingly designed, but cheap, feautureful, and
>frankly better value for money for most uses.
Yes, PC hardware is commodity components in an industry-standard
architecture. All the more reason to prevent Microsoft from
monopolizing it.
>>> Everything has been tacked on, in the forms of X11, BSD Sockets,
>>> replacement of rsh/rcp/telnet with ssh, and various proprietary
>>> offerings.
>>
>>Yes, and without having to break everything else.
>
>Just the Unix philosophy.
Perhaps in the jaded view of people who have some emotional interest in
declaring the Unix philosophy as simultaneously flawed and not supported
sufficiently.
>>> The two central Unix concepts, everything is a file, and
>>> pipes and filters have been violated many times, in order
>>> to make Unix a better OS / Environment.
>>
>>OK, explain this one to me.
>
>Popular Unix tools are integrated, not modular commandlines
>with pipes and filters.
>
>Why is perl so popular? Since it can supersede combinations
>on sed, awk, the unix utils, in an integrated and useful
>way.
It can also pipeline with these utilities in a perfectly reasonable
manner. Since the brainchild of Larry Wall subsumes the functionality
of sed, awk, shell, C, and several other tools and languages, this is
rarely done. But its up to you to use what you know, and if all you
know is enough perl to make a useful pipeline to sed, that's all well
and good. Certainly not efficient, unless it is, of course, but the
Unix philosophy has never been one of restrictiveness.
>Emacs - can you see the Unix underneath it, and do you have
>to if you can code in Lisp?
Yes, and no, to my (admittedly very limited in these details)
understanding.
>Not everything is a file. Why is there a kill command?
>Why not rm /proc/tasks/PID ?
A good point. Making processes entries in a /proc 'file system' is,
however, the abstraction which allows processes to preserve the Unix
philosophy that 'everything is a file'. Perhaps you'd like to expand
this to "everything is a file which can be acted on in exactly the same
way", but that isn't, obviously enough, the case. That everything is a
file may be more a metaphor than an abstraction in the case of
processes, but nevertheless, this is hardly conclusive evidence that
there is a flaw in the implementation of the "philosophy".
>Why are network connections handled differently than
>creating a file? And windowing?
Because they are not local resources.
>>Yes, and it works very much like it always has.
>
>And has been rewritten both internally and externally
>to incrementally imporve it. Semi monolitic kernels,
>monolitihic kernels, microkernels (Minix / Qnx),
>varied windowing systems, network file systems,
>etc...
>
>Unix is composed of the winners of software evoloution -
>sadly, best of breed isn't judged technically, but on
>adoption - witness X11 and Motif and lpd.
Well, I would simply say that your definition of being "judged
technically" is simply a bit idealistic. You can cite the flaws you
observe in these things until the next turn of the millennium, but that
merely indicates that you judge technical value somewhat differently
than "works and is available", and might wish to extend it to "my
preferred solution, if it could work as well and be as widely
available." I'm certainly no fan of Motif, but I wouldn't try to
characterize it as "best of breed", either.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
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------------------------------
Subject: Re: Why don't I use Linux?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:17:18 GMT
No-Spam (Terry Porter) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Because your a Wintroll of old ???
>Goodwin is still hopeing to get a "Windows Bounty" on published anti
>Linux articles.
Ha ha ha.
I'm not hoping to get any kind of "Windows bounty".
You want to make things up, go ahead.
>>In a word: Software.
>How much fo you need ?
>My 1997 Linux Cheapbytes CD had a couple thousand packages on it, and
>all for about $6.
I listed specific examples. A couple of thousand packages that don't do
anything like what I'm looking for is a waste of time.
>>There are packages on Windows for which there are no equivalents on
>>Linux that I can see as yet.
>And vice versa mate! Want examples ?
>Lyx, Gschem, Xpcb, Koules, DDD, Xlogmaster, Visudo, Cron etc
>Recognise those names .... I'm not supprised.
I recognise cron. You do realise there is cron for Windows, do you not?
Of course, not one of the above pacakges tells me what it does. About
typical for a UNIX style application. Cryptic.
>>Borland Delphi and C++ Builder are two of these packages. They are
>>going to appear on Linux, but not yet.
>Your used to Windows "vapor ware" why not wait a little longer ?
Vapourware exists in Linux too. What's happening with the V2.4 kernel. Is
it ready yet?
>>Paint Shop Pro is a cheap graphics package that beats any of the free
>>packages I've seen on Linux.
>Youve never used the Gimp then, and thats $$FREE$$.
Oh yes I have. It doesn't even come close.
>>Word is not my favourite tool and there is Star Office on Linux.
>There is also LYX and numerous others, you have to get out more Goodwin.
Yes I tried some. I was not impressed.
>>Digiguide is a TV listing guide available for the UK. Is there any
>>equivalent for that on Linux, again UK based?
>Write one ?
And who will supply me the raw data, I wonder?
>>My sound card, an ESS Allegro is not supported by Linux.
>So what ?
It's a reason why I don't switch to Linux.
>>3D Sound is not available on Linux.
>So what ?
It's a reason why I don't switch to Linux.
>>USB devices are not fully supported on Linux - my USB ZIP 250 drive and
>>HP scanner are not supported. Is there anything for my USB Intel
>>WebCamera?
>Who knows, do you know how to use a search engine yet ?
Do you know how to read yet?
>>I have a Series 5 Psion - is there connection software on Linux for it?
>Who knows, write one if there isnt.
Another reason why I don't switch to Linux.
>>Unreal Tournament is on both platforms; the lack of 3D sound on Linux
>>is a problem. Same with Quake III Arena.
>I think a Hi-Fi systema and a Nintendo are all you need Goodwin.
I don't have a Nintendo. I do have a HiFi. Together the two are not enough,
any more than Linux currently is.
>>Firewall software exists on both Windows and Linux; I use ZoneAlarm
>>on Windows. Is there something as easy to setup and use on Linux?
>Yep, security is built in to Linux.
And the default on the distros is to start up every network service -
including ones I rarely use. I have to find this out _after_ the
installation, not during (when I could at least switch them off).
>>What would make me switch to Linux?
>Nothing Wintroll.
With an attitude like yours, you're right.
--
Pete Goodwin
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Why don't I use Linux?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin)
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:32:27 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (A transfinite number of monkeys) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>So, you're into crash-prone OS's, that's your bag. Good for you, Pete!
Like I said, I could switch to Windows 2000.
>True enough, there isn't a really good pascal compiler, visual & OO or
>otherwise. It hasn't seemed to have hurt Linux so far. There are
>several C/C++ IDEs available already, however.
Yes I tried one. Yuk!
>Not familiar with the GIMP, I see.
Yep. Doesn't even come close.
>: Word is not my favourite tool and there is Star Office on Linux.
>
>Not to mention AbiWord, which, while not completed, does a heck of a
>good job.
Not completed?
>Never heard of Digiguide. You want TV listings? Use one of the portal
>sites like Yahoo! or Excite. They don't care what platform you're on,
>as long as you've got a browser.
Can I download a couple of month's worth of listings and view them offline?
>I'd say you made an unfortunate hardware choice. By the way, according
>to the folks at http://www.opensound.com/, the Allegro, in both flavors,
>ES1988 and ES1989 are supported. OSS is a commercial driver solution,
>but you can get your sound working fine under Linux.
Gosh, they do claim support. I'll have to download a driver and see if I
can get it to work.
Yes, I know, the Allegro is not the best sound card. A better one is a
Crystal/Cirrus based. Voyetra's Turtle Beach is a Crystal card.
>
>: 3D Sound is not available on Linux.
>
>Sssssh! Better not tell Loki that. They've got that working.
Really? On which cards? A cursory search revealed no lists of Soundcards
that work with OpenAL.
>No idea. I have a Palm. Works great.
One reason I don't switch to Linux.
>: Unreal Tournament is on both platforms; the lack of 3D sound on Linux
>: is a problem. Same with Quake III Arena.
>
>How does it prevent you from killing your enemy?
If you have 3D sound, you can hear when someone is coming from behind you.
>This supposed "lack of software" is nothing more than you not looking
>around.
In some cases, yes, but there is at least one case above that would prevent
me from switching.
--
Pete Goodwin
---
Why don't I use Linux?
Lack of support for my sound card for one thing.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:42:07 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Weevil in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
[...]
>> Again, to be entirely straight-forward, Microsoft did *not* make sure
>> DR-DOS "had problems" running Windows, at least in the technical sense.
>
>Max, am I detecting the first subtle signs of assimilation in you? Hehe.
Heaven forfend!
>Yes, Microsoft *did* make sure DR-DOS "had problems" running Windows. From
>Caldera's Statement of Facts:
>
>"263. Microsoft also introduced a bug that would cause a fatal error when
>users tried to run Windows 3.1 with DR DOS. The bug appeared early in the
>beta cycle and was included in the production release of Windows 3.1. The
>fatal error message read "Fault in MS-DOS Extender," and prevented users
>from installing Windows 3.1. The error resulted from Microsoft's failure to
>clear what is called the "nested task flag," which is essentially a simple
>"on/off" switch on the processor. Microsoft knew about the problem; knew the
>cause of the problem; and knew how to fix it. See Reynolds FTC Depo. "
Well, this point actually highlights why I disagreed with your statement
that MS made sure DR-DOS "had problems" running Windows. DR-DOS ran
Windows just fine; you just couldn't install Windows on DR-DOS. Most
DR-DOS users would get around this, if necessary, by installing on
MS-DOS, and then swapping out the DOS for DR-DOS.
I would disagree with the characterization of the code MS as a bug which
Microsoft "introduced". It is my opinion that MS did not introduce this
inability to install Win3.1 on DR-DOS purposefully, though I will admit
there is little support for this argument. They certainly did
purposefully use it to try to kill DR-DOS's market, but its my opinion
that the nefarious part of this action was merely in failing to correct
the problem, and the fact that it was an MS "glitch" which caused the
fault in the first place. I have no evidence to more directly support
the accusation that Microsoft intentionally engineered this. If they
had, my reasoning goes, then they'd simply have perpetuated and extended
it, and wouldn't necessarily have had to build the AARD FUD code.
Again, I'll admit this presumption is tenuous, but I try to remain
objective.
>Also, they used "drdos detection code" in the Win 3.1 setup program to put
>up the following message when the user was trying to install Win3.1 on
>drdos:
>
>"The XMS driver you have installed is not compatible with Windows. You must
>remove it before SETUP can successfully install Windows."
>
>This was an actual lie, by the way.
Yes, that's the point. If it was a lie, it wasn't really a problem,
just a lie saying you will have problems.
[...]
>> They did engineer a way to make sure that users running Windows on
>> DR-DOS would *think* that it had problems.
>
>It definitely did have problems of Microsoft origin.
I simply can't force myself to blame MS for someone believe their FUD,
to this degree. When its lies you can't verify, then I can understand
it. But I did, as stated, mean to limit the idea of "problems" to
actual technical failures and incompatibilities, not merely putative
failures and FUD. DR-DOS was, after all, a correct clone of MS-DOS.
They may have changed stuff to make it harder for DR-DOS to sustain a
market (and certainly did), but they did not introduce technical
failures. Even had they introduced inefficiencies to further discourage
DR-DOS, as discussed in the emails you cited, that wouldn't have
qualified to my reading of the phrase "introduced technical problems
running DR-DOS with Windows".
[...]
>my proposal is to have bambi refuse to run on this alien OS. comments?
>
>The approach we will take is to detect dr 6 and refuse to load. The error
>message should be something like 'Invalid device driver interface.'
>
>mike, tom, mack -- do you have a reliable dr6 detection mechanism?
And again. This was not done. I'm not trying to give MS any credit for
being honest or having any integrity; I'm quite sure they never went
beyond FUD and minor glitches simply because it would have destroyed so
much credibility that even the pre-load lock-in couldn't have maintained
the monopoly. They did, in the end, utilize the 'reliable dr6 detection
mechanism', but they did not refuse to load, and they did not say
"invalid device driver interface" in the error.
[...]
>But you're right. I don't think any MS executive will ever serve time.
I'm actually not as convinced of that as you are. You forget, even
attempted monopolization is a crime. Barrett (if I read correctly that
he was the author of the above comments) could certainly be convicted
and thrown in the pen based simply on the email above; it is conclusive
and incontrovertible evidence, at least IMHO, of monopolization. I
doubt he'd get the maximum three year sentence, but who knows how many
other emails were also incidents of criminal behavior.
It seems almost assured, though, that Gates, and probably Balmer, would
never be sentenced. And it seems a trifle unfair to send lower
executives and managers to jail, just for buying into the "monopolizing
is competing" fallacy which those two men obviously dictated.
>I
>am of the sad belief that they have become powerful enough to avoid that.
>The sadness is caused not by the fact that they'll remain free, but by the
>implications of the fact that they are powerful enough to do so.
If push came to shove, they aren't. But they are powerful enough not to
be shoved unless something should happen to bring it decisively to light
that they have, indeed, stifled competition and defrauded their
customers for more than a decade.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 04:42:55 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Nick Condon in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
[...]
>ALLCHIN: "It was just a joke, your honour, I was having a bit a gag with the
>underlings and they misread me and went and committed anti-competivite acts. But
>it was a joke. Honest. It was all my mother's fault, she never really loved me."
LOL! :-)
Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
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------------------------------
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Spread the source code of Windows
Date: 28 Oct 2000 03:43:12 -0500
Robben Mario <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> PLEAAAAAAAAAAAASSSEEEEEEEE
> I want to see if it's true about the crack. Even some portions of the source
> coude would satisfy me.
How about this little portion:
/* msword.c */
void bomb(char *non_ms_os)
{
printf(stderr, "This application is not compatible with %s.\n", non_ms_os);
exit 1;
}
/* ... */
if (DRDOS)
bomb("Dr. DOS");
/* We are not running MS-DOS, so we are OUTTA HERE!! */
- Donn
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: Anonymous Remailer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,soc.singles
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 10:50:01 +0200 (CEST)
aaron wrote:
> Loren Petrich wrote:
> >
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron R. Kulkis
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > You leftists are ALWAYS using "laudable goals" to excuse DESTRUCTIVE RESULTS.
> >
> > While you right-wingers are proud of being Evil People?
>
> I'm a Libertarian.
who supports the government's jihad against microsoft...
jackie 'anakin' tokeman
STOP THE TROLLOCAUST
NEVER AGAIN!
men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth - more than ruin, more
even than death
- bertrand russell
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