Linux-Advocacy Digest #56, Volume #30 Sun, 5 Nov 00 12:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: More Certification (lyttlec)
Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar ("Bruce Schuck")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!! ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar ("Bruce Schuck")
Re: Why Linux is great ("James")
Re: Why Linux is great
Re: Why Linux is great ("James")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Bruce Schuck")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Bruce Schuck")
Re: Linux and Mac instead of Windows. (mlw)
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Bruce Schuck")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! ("Bruce Schuck")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lyttlec <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Certification
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 16:09:17 GMT
Les Mikesell wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:gu92u8.4vl.ln@gd2zzx...
> > In article <tLWM5.12994$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > I don't consider learning the basic techniques of thinking to be a
> waste.
> > > One of the things you need most in a technical vocation is the ability
> to
> > > solve what appears to be a new problem and this is a skill that develops
> > > independently of the thing you are studying.
> >
> > I couldn't agree more. I have found that people who have studied
> > science or engineering at university often become very good software
> > engineers. What I do find surprising is that people who have studied
> > computer science often don't become good software engineers. Of course
> > these are not hard facts, just my general impression. One of the best
> > software engineer's I ever worked with had a degree in music!
>
> I don't think that is unusual at all. There seems to be some elusive
> connection between software, music and motorcycles that no one
> can precisely pin down.
>
> Les Mikesell
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In the beginning mathematics had two branches : Geometry and Music.
Today, that is apparent in the combined interest in computers and music.
Motorcycles have the same "hands on" feel that you get from a real low
level programming experience. All three require use of the same creative
talents.
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:18:14 -0800
"sfcybear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8u2rou$k77$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <6z5N5.123198$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > "sfcybear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:8u2m4o$g5g$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > In article <8c1N5.123098$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > >
> > >
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 13:51:22 GMT,
> > > > > Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Perry Pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > >
> > >
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > >> On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 03:33:10 GMT,
> > > > > >> Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >Particularly the ones where Red Hat was compromised and
> trojan
> > > code
> > > > was
> > > > > >allowed
> > > > > >> >to be inserted and was released as final product by Red Hat
> > > > themselves.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> As usual, you are a blatent liar.
> > > >
> > > > How about this one:
> > > >
> > > > It lets remote users shut down a workstation on RedHat 6.0, 6.1,
> and
> > > 6.2.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.redhat.com/support/errata/RHSA-2000-044-02.html
> > > >
> > > > Or this one that allows root access:
> > > >
> > > > A security bug in wu-ftpd can permit remote users, even without
> > > > an account, to gain root access.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.redhat.com/support/errata/RHSA-2000-039-02.html
> > > >
> > > > Etc etc.
> > > >
> > > > Too many to list.
> > > >
> > > > Just read through the RedHat security advisories. You'll find
> dozens
> > > ... or
> > > > hundreds.
> > > >
> > > > It appears every package on RedHat is -- at some time or another
> --
> > > some
> > > > kind of trojan that allows root access.
> > >
> > > Do you know the differance between trojan code and a bug in the
> > > software? ???? There is a big differance! Can you tell me what it
> is???
> > >
> > > Hint: think trojan horse. Then think trojan horse code. You should
> now
> > > have an image of code that has something hidden in side. The items
> that
> > > you have posted are indeed bugs, but they are NOT trojan code. Get
> it?
> >
> > If it lets you break root so easily -- and I can't believe how many
> such
> > exploits are possible on Linux -- it is a trojan.
> >
> > Now, if it propagated itself, it would be a worm.
> >
>
>
> Buzzz wrong! Judging from the other things you have said I did not think
> you would know!
>
> Ever hear about the "trojan horse"? It was a gift with an unplesant
> surprise in it. The same can be said for trojan code! The code is
> designed to look good on the inside but it has an unplesant suprise
> inside.
So far that sounds like Linux and all the exploits.
> Since most windows code in NOT available to look at, no one
> outside of MS know for sure if any trojans are in the MS code. With open
> source, it is a bit harder to slip a trojan past without someone knowing
> about it!
Hmmm. If its easy to catch trojan code (or bad code) why does so much of it
get released as RedHat ?
> BTW, window problably has as many or MORE exploits that Linux.
I doubt it.
> MS just hides them so you can never fix them thus you remain vunerable.
RedHat seems to have an inexhaustible supply.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:52:13 +0200
"2:1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > My list includes tools like Access. And a free web server that kicks
ass
> > >
> > > khttpd is free. It seems to slaughter everything in sight.
> >
> > Never heard of it. No stats either.
>
> khttpd aka Tux.
Wasn't it the web server they had to insert into the kernel in order to
match IIS?
> > >
> > > > with dynamic content and even beats Apache with static content
delivery.
> > And
> > > > many many other great things about Win2K.
> > >
> > > What has Access got to do with a web server.
> >
> > Access databases are used as to serve up dynamic content on IIS.
>
>
> Databases are used for big websites. Access is not a big database.
> Therefore it's fairly silly to use Access in this context.
Ha? You *really* don't know what you are talking about, right?
www.ewebcity.com, for example, is one place where a *lot* of people are
using *Access* as a database for small to meduim size sites.
Database can be useful on any size of a site.
If I want to build my *own* counter + statistics (OS, Browser, time, so on)
application for my site, I practically have to use a database or files.
Files wouldn't be so good because I'll have no easy way to do statistics,
sums, and so on.
Access, on the other hand, is perfect for this task, because it's unlikely
that my personal site will get more than 20 concurrent hits per a given
moment for a long time (the only scenario where Access begin to fail), I can
use it. It will have one table, several rows, and I can use access to get
the statistics I want without any hassle.
Granted, I know a lot more about SQL & DB than the average John Doe, but
John Doe could use access to create the reports he needs from access with a
simple "Access for Dummies" book and a little time. Give him some more time,
and he can figure it out on his own, still, without knowing anything about
SQL, DB, or the application.
Beyond that, Access can connect to any ODBC capable DB (meaning, in
practice, every DB) and become their front end, giving you all the power of
access (no need to know SQL in order to order data from the DB, easy way to
create reports, and so on).
For small to medium operations, Access is a very valuable tool, because one
tool can do so many things for the unexpirenced user.
A really short feature list, Query practically any database (because of
ODBC) without having to know SQL, Creating forms (sort of like making a
DB-Enabled application without knowing much about programming or DB),
Creating reports (easily displaying your data without having to know how to
format it), VBA programming (invaluable for a lot of small bussinesses.)
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.linux.sucks
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:59:10 +0200
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:2LeN5.13180$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8u3uni$6c4$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > >
> > > > >Can you please inform me what you can do in Vi that you can't in
> Word.
> > > > >Or even what you can do much more easily in Vi than in Word.
> > > >
> > > > "anything complex" probably would fit the bill.
> > > >
> > > > However, I will leave the details to the vi users.
> > >
> > > One I use fairly often: you have a list of names in
> > > Last, First form but you want First Last.
> > > :%s/\(.*\), \(.*\)/\2 \1/
> > > and you have it. And since regular expressions work
> > > in most of the unix tools there is nothing extra to
> > > learn or look up.
> >
> > Shouldn't be too hard to write a macro to do this.
> > I don't use VBA, so I can't tell you how easy/hard it would be.
>
> Probably, but it will likely only work in this month's flavor
> of wordbasic. Regular expressions have been just as
> useful for twenty years or so - well worth the effort of
> learning once.
VB has regular expressions.
And, it would probably work on all version of Word that support macros (I
think that 97 was the first, but I'm not sure) and upward. MS *really* mean
it about backward compatibility.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:06:41 +0200
"Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:10:52 +0200, Ayende Rahien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >ILOVEYOU
> >
> >Need user confirmation in order to active itself.
>
> None of my Unix mailers will run a shell script at all, period. I have
> to save it to a file and set the "x" bit. I count this as a good
> thing, since I can't think of any _good_ reason why I'd want scripts to
> run when I simply "open" them. This makes it a lot harder to fool
> people.
Probably, but it also make it troublesome for nonexperiance user to find
them (I once had someone who couldn't find a *really* important file, why?
because it wasn't on its desktop.)
BTW, how hard would it be to make your unix mailer run a shell script? I
mean, saving it to a temp dir and setting the x bit themselves.
By default, outlook would do the same, users are igoring this and getting
fucked up, their sole fault.
> >teardrop
> >
> >Don't know this one, what is this?
>
> A way to crash NT remotely by sending malformed packets to it over the
> Internet. Long since fixed.
Thanks for the info.
>
> >Back Orifice
> >
> >Trojan, can write the same on any OS.
>
> Sure, but Windows makes it easy to fool the user into running it.
> There are also a number of nifty buffer overflows in IIS and other
> Windows services that allow remote attackers to install BO.
Do you've a source for that, I would like to know more about this.
> >Word macro attacks
> >
> >Require user confirmation in order to be activated.
>
> Only if you have that setting turned on (in Word97). Why have macros
> embedded in the document to begin with? Why not make a distinction?
> You don't see any Emacs macro viruses going around, even though it has
> a very powerful macro language.
That setting it turned on by default, (in Word 97/2000)
Because for most users, sending a single file is a tiresome task, sending
several files is impossible (extraggtion, of course, but you get my point.
Unix has the advantage of more knowledgeable people).
> The whole point here is that Windows has it's share of security
> problems. It is not notably different from Linux in this regard. If
> Linux is "insecure", then NT is too.
Well, I've learned a three steps method to completely secure a computer.
A> Power down & Open the case.
B> Remove all modem/network cards installed.
C> Close the case & Power up.
you are now 100% secured.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:08:55 +0200
"Christopher Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:8u2fmt$hhh$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > The whole point here is that Windows has it's share of security
> > problems. It is not notably different from Linux in this regard. If
> > Linux is "insecure", then NT is too.
>
> Undoubtedly. No OS can be assumed to be secure.
Actually, I object to this statement, it should be:
Any OS is insecured until proven otherwise.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM to BUY MICROSOFT!!!!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:56:39 +0200
"Chad Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:wK7N5.20903$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Les Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:OG%M5.13054$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Chad Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:d4%M5.872$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > > > Do you imagine that every win2k box has service pack 1 applied
> now?
> > > > >
> > > > > No. But Linux is an open door by default. Win2K is not.
> > > >
> > > > No it isn't.
> > >
> > > Yes it is
> >
> > No it isn't. Try a RedHat workstation install. It comes up
> > with almost as little useful network stuff as Windows.
> >
>
> Slackware and the last RedHat I installed would allow a blank as a root
> password. This, by allowing the user to choose to not choose, is a default
> of being wide open to any user or about the same level security as DOS 3.
Corel Linux 1.2 don't let you set a root password during the installation
(something all the other installations let you)
It simply let you create username(s) (but without a password, IIRC) and then
it install.
Guess what, all the passwords are default as blank! (And reason for this?)
Guess what, *security risk*!
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Chad Meyers: Blatent liar
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:20:53 -0800
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:Zm8N5.13161$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:8c1N5.123098$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > >> As usual, you are a blatent liar.
> >
> > How about this one:
> >
> > It lets remote users shut down a workstation on RedHat 6.0, 6.1, and
6.2.
> >
>
> And the current version of RedHat is????
The current version selling? Or the current version in server rooms or
desktops?
The list for 7.0 is very long, and is growing every day.
------------------------------
From: "James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why Linux is great
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:17:28 +0200
More FUD:
Fact:
CDRW software for Win2k: Installing Adaptec Get latest Adaptec software and
run setup.exe. No problemo.
Now to get my usb scanner working I will probably have to fiddle with an
beta quality Linux kernel (2.4) and obscure, if non-existent, drivers.
Hardly non-trivial.
James
"2:1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Mandrake 7.1 does not configure these devices - but I can probably get
these
> > working if I go on a Linux sabbatical - but then again it is just too
much
> > effort. :-)
>
>
> Ah. So I dee that you couldn't be bothered to put in the slightest
> effort. Well what do you expect. I couldn't be bothered to install the
> CD-RW drivers under windows. No suprises it doesn't work then.
>
> -Ed
>
> --
> Konrad Zuse should recognised. He built the first | Edward Rosten
> binary digital computer (Z1, with floating point) the | Engineer
> first general purpose computer (the Z3) and the first | u98ejr@
> commercial one (Z4). | eng.ox.ac.uk
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ()
Subject: Re: Why Linux is great
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 16:24:05 GMT
On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:49:14 +0200, James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Bob, a download manager is a tool that :
>
>a) automates / schedules;
>b) optimises;
>c) assures
None of which should be necessary unless both the operating system and web
browser of complete crap.
------------------------------
From: "James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why Linux is great
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 18:28:51 +0200
Haven't used the net for long then ? Things only work 100% of the time in
Utopia, but that's not where we are.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 12:49:14 +0200, James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Bob, a download manager is a tool that :
> >
> >a) automates / schedules;
> >b) optimises;
> >c) assures
>
> None of which should be necessary unless both the operating system and web
> browser of complete crap.
>
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:35:59 -0800
"Goldhammer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9n6N5.36231$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:23:36 -0800, Bruce Schuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >"Goldhammer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:Lo5N5.36197$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:09:40 -0800, Bruce Schuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >> >
> >> >"Goldhammer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> >news:%N3N5.35894$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> >Before we waste anymore time with your drivel, name the *nix tools that
> >matches the feature list of Access.
>
>
> You must have not been paying attention
> when I said MySQL or Postgres.
Tell me about the MySQL report writer. Or forms designer.
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:37:28 -0800
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:6k7N5.13146$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:O76N5.123431$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> >
> > Before we waste anymore time with your drivel, name the *nix tools that
> > matches the feature list of Access.
>
> None of them match the non-portability, vendor lock design goal of Access
> if that is what you mean.
I was talking report writer, forms designer, programming language tools.
> But several things match the functionality
> especially if you are working toward a web-accessible database.
Many products do 1 thing better than Access. None have the feature list or
usability.
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux and Mac instead of Windows.
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2000 11:39:19 -0500
James wrote:
>
> mlw,
>
> You don't even of Novel GroupWise, Visio, or SAP, yet you advocate Linux for
> all occasions. Spend some time in a Corporate environment - where Win2k is
> useful and Linux is not ... and then do some real advocacy.
I did not know of GroupWise, but have used products like Lotus Notes.
I have used Visio, but am not too impressed with it.
SAP, who care?
These are all simply products for which there is competition or other
solutions. Knowing or not knowing any particular product is not
important. That's like saying a person can't be a mechanic if they have
never worked on Jaguar. (While, although Jaguars historically have
required a disproportionately larger amount of work, it is still
unlikely that any single, randomly chosen, mechanic had actually worked
on one.)
It is funny though, I post an opinion about technology, and rather than
address my point (which is valid) you try to suggest that I don't know
enough. Funny and typical. Aside from it being bad manners, it shows an
inability to reason. A smarter person could have made statements about
various attributes of Windows, philosophical arguments about Windows vs
macintosh vs Linux, etc, but no, you go for the "You don't know X,Y, or
Z, you don't know nothing" argument (Why not just say something bad
about my mother?). Even that, you couldn't get right, because I said
"not everyone has Visio" you assumed I did not know Visio. You couldn't
even draw the correct conclusion from the text posted, which, if you
were intelligent (you may or may not be, it is difficult to say for
sure, you could just be having a bad day, or not enough coffee), it
would be obvious that one could not have drawn a conclusion about
knowledge or lack of from the statement.
Lastly, GroupWise is probably less important a product than is Lotus
Notes, and I have had access to Lotus Notes since before it was
purchased by Lotus (While it was still by Iris, btw was bought by
Lotus), and before Lotus was IBM.
And in response to "Spend some time in a Corporate environment - where
Win2k is useful and Linux is not," I would be hard pressed to fund such
an agency. If IS makes decisions where Windows-Only solutions are
chosen, that's their deal, but it need not be that way, and in many
places it is not. Typically, if IS can support both Windows and the
Macintosh, Linux would usually function well in that environment.
I have worked in many companies, and the only time I think I would
actually need a Microsoft product, is when I would be developing
software for Windows. Other than that, there are many many solutions
which are Linux, despite Microsoft's efforts to the contrary.
>
> James
>
> "mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > I had a conversation with a woman at a Verizon store today. To make the
> > details concise, suffice to say, she had just bought a Compaq (Windows)
> > and is having no end of problems.
> >
> > I am thinking to myself, that if she is having problems, out of the box,
> > with a pre configured computer, then she will have problems using any
> > sort of computer. She asked me what she should have bought. I thought
> > about it, and it was obvious. She should have bought a Mac.
> >
> > Now, I know a lot of people that would simply not be able to deal with
> > the straight jacket that a Mac represents (I am one), but, I think it is
> > appropriate for some users.
> >
> > So, if you want the hand-holding of an "idiot-box" (Idiot, as in the
> > slang name for indicator lights in a car.) then, I think Mac is the way
> > to go. If you want to do serious work, where things like data integrity
> > and "uptime" are important, then use Linux for FreeBSD.
> >
> > So, where does Windows fit in? It (in any of its incarnations) is not as
> > stable as Linux, and not as easy to use as the Mac, so what's the point?
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.mohawksoft.com
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:48:33 -0800
"Goldhammer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:Gd6N5.36225$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:51:08 -0800, Bruce Schuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Goldhammer:
> >> Then why is Schuck reccommending a migration path from
> >> Access to MS SQL server?
> >
> >You know why.
>
>
> Perhaps you overestimate me. I'm not a mind-reader.
>
>
> >Access is both a great database development tool for small to
> >medium applications,
>
>
> But I was told by you and Myers that Access has more functionality
> than anything available under *nix workalikes. If this is so, why
> do I have to migrate to a more expensive product from MS,
You don't. Access 2000 come with MSDE which is the "embedded" version of SQL
Server 7.0.
If you buy the Office Developeers Edition, you can -- for free -- distribute
Access 2000 runtimes with the MSDE (also for free).
All the funtionality of Access reports, forms, etc + SQL SERVER 7.0.
You can choose to use the Jet database for smaller projects and the upsize
later -- for free.
> to achieve
> the same functionality that I had to begin with from a free
> product like Postgres?
>
> Do you understand this question, Bruce?
Tell me about the report writer in that tool? The forms designer?
>
>
> >and a very good front end for Oracle,
>
> Access is not a front end for Oracle. Access can
> connect to foreign databases via ODBC like those created by
> Oracle or Paradox, and even it's own garbage like Jet
> or DAO. But Access is not a front end to Oracle.
Access 2000 is an excellent front-end to Oracle. And many other databases.
> Neither
> is Access a front end to Dbase or MySQL or any other
> database management system. Try to understand
> this rather subtle point.
Yes it is. Try to pull your head out of your ass.
>
>
> >SQL Server and
> >other RDBMS designed for thousands of users.
>
>
> So is any system that supports ODBC.
Or natice connections.
> By the way, you should
> stop saying that Access is a "front end to other RDBMS". It is not
> the first time you have said this, and, if taken literally, this
> statement of yours is gibberish. Access can be a front end
> to foreign database fromats via ODBC, just like MySQL and a
> whole host of other products. But strictly speaking, to say that
> Access is a front end to a third party relational (or otherwise)
> database management system, is pure drivel. There is a difference
> between a database and a database management system.
Actually, Access 2000 has tools that allow it to create/delete/modify Oracle
tables as well as SQL Server tables.
Access 2000 -- in conjunction with MSDE or Oracle -- is in fact a frontend
and you can design tables, stored procedure, triggers, etc without going to
the RDBMS's tools.
>
>
> >There is no such equivalent tool for Linux.
>
>
> So far, you have no explained how Access is any
> better in functionality than MySQL, exept for some
> nonsense about Access's pedagogical value, and the
> wonderous superiority of it's gui buttons and menus. Neither
> of which has anything to do with database management functionality.
As I've said. Tell me about your tool choices report writer. Forms builder?
SQL Server 7.0? Programming language?
>
>
> >Plus, you can design a small database using Access, and then migrate the
> >database part to SQL Server with little or no changes to the forms or
> >reports.
>
>
> So? I can make a small database in MySQL, and I don't have to
> bother migrating it anywhere to achieve SQL server functionality.
In Access, you can choose to use Jet for easy portability in distribution,
or you can use MSDE -- which is SQL Server 7.0.
Linux has no such multipurpose tool.
------------------------------
From: "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:50:04 -0800
"Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:2g7N5.13145$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Bruce Schuck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:fa4N5.123132$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > and move up to MS SQL server, where you finally
> > > see a semblance of functionality which was available under
> > > *nix workalikes for free in the first place.
> >
> > Come now. Nobody in their right mind would put something like mySQL in
the
> > class of SQL Server or Oracle.
>
> MySQL has its place where the object is remarkably fast lookups that
> aren't likely to conflict with updates (table level locking). But
> postgreSQL
> has a pretty good shot at Oracle territory as long as you don't need BLOBs
> yet.
And Access 2000 has MSDE -- SQL Server 7.0 runtime. Code compatible.
------------------------------
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