Linux-Advocacy Digest #257, Volume #30 Wed, 15 Nov 00 21:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: Help!! (Michael Vester)
Re: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights? (tom)
Need some advice on Linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
RE: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights? ("Pedro Iglesias")
Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux? (mlw)
RE: Need some advice on Linux ("Pedro Iglesias")
Re: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights? (Osugi)
Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux? (mlw)
Re: Need some advice on Linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights? ("kosh")
Re: More Linux good news! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Chad Myers")
Re: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Disapointed in the election ("Colin R. Day")
Re: Mandrake, thoughts? Opinions? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Vester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Help!!
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:44:27 -0700
"Aleksandar V." wrote:
>
> Michael Vester wrote:
>
> > Your best bet is comp.os.linux.setup, this is an advocacy
> > group where Windows advocates come to throw stones. When I
> > setup dual boot system, I scrub the drive first. It is just
> > easier that way. Windows needs periodic re-installation
> > anyways just to keep it running.
> >
> >
>
> Michael,
>
> Can I ask you a simple question? You seem to be running a Netscape 4.61 under
> Linux. I'm using Netscape 4.51 but it cannot cache newsgroup messages,
> although in the preferences the option "keep all newsgroup messages" is
> turned on.
>
> Can your version of browser cache messages? Or is there a way, maybe, of
> setting Netscape to work correctly?
>
> Thanks,
> Sascha
It appears that Netscape does not cache messages locally on my
4.61 version. I have the same settings and each time I click
on a header, the reader still connects to the news server to
download the message. After I read the message and then return
to it, the message loads locally. The online documentation is
not very clear regarding the caching of messages and what is
the intent.
In the distance past, I used Compuserve and acquired a piece
of software which let you download an entire message board.
Those were the days when online time was something like
$9/hour for 2400 baud connection speed. The ability to grab an
entire message board was highly desired compared to reading
each message one at a time while online. I don't think
Netscape has the same ability. Now, it seems irrelevant with
unlimited online time.
A brute force solution is to setup your own news server. Just
process the groups that your are interested in. I have seen a
few organizations do this to give their employees access to an
excellent information resource without the undesirable
elements.
Michael Vester
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
A credible Linux advocate
------------------------------
From: tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights?
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:08:27 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> tom wrote:
> > Pan looks promising. Dumb question: which file(s) do I need to
> > download? I know Mandrake can use rpm's, but there are about five
> > different one's listed, perhaps for different systems? (I have a
P266.)
>
> Look for i386 or i586 in the rpm name.
> Download all such packages, as there may be depencies.
Thanks. Be nice if they'd give more info, e.g. if the rpm's are a
complete set.
Tom
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Need some advice on Linux
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:21:54 GMT
A PC (AMD Athlon 1 Ghz) has been shipped to me with Windows Me
installed in it. The disk size is 30 GB. I wanted to know what I need
to do now to install Linux on it (but retain the Windows Me). Please
advise. I am new to Linux but I have always used Unix and I bought the
PC so that I could install and learn Linux on it.
Thanks
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights?
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:29:52 GMT
Why the Hell if NT does fail it is always the graphics
drivers and when Linux fails is a crappy OS ? The only
times my GNU/Linux's have failed me is when RAM or
motherboard are wrong be it hardware trouble or heat.
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:36:13 -0500
Craig Kelley wrote:
>
> mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Michael Livshin wrote:
> > >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi) writes:
> > >
> > > > I'm not saying you should use C++ without polymorphism. I'm pointing
> > > > out that you don't need to use much manual memory management in C++.
> > >
> > > any non-zero amount is enough for me, thankyouverymuch.
> >
> > Without good memory management, you can't do a non-trivial program very
> > well. I don't care what anyone says, garbage collectors don't work in
> > complex systems. You either end up running too slowly because the memory
> > manager is taking up too much time, or your process bloats because the
> > memory manager isn't doing enough.
>
> Care to explain that to my Java servlets then?
I remember seeing some alerts last year that the garbage collection in a
version of Java cased a problem because it was not freeing the memory
correctly. I wish I saved the URL.
>
> Not that Java is a perfect language (it isn't), but it sure beats C
> and C++ in the usability department.
I disagree, but then again I do things that are very process intensive.
Java is too bloated for what I do.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > possibility of recovery (or at least very graceful reporting) from
> > > *any* error is quite important for big long-running applications. you
> > > can't recover from a segfault terribly well, I'm afraid.
> >
> > Sure you can.
>
> Considering that the defn of a segfault is that your program is in an
> inconsistent state....
>
> Besides, how exactly to you "catch" a segfault without being in a
> debugger?
signal(SEGSIGV, sigHandler)
It isn't a catch(..), but it works. If you structure your code well, you
can recover.
>
> [snip]
>
> > The question is why does it suck? and more to the point, how can someone
> > claim it sucks more than C?
>
> It probably doesn't suck more than C, but it definately sucks more
> than most intellegent languages; for everything apart from devices
> drivers and anywhere else you need a macro assembler.
I write a lot of low level stuff, and things that process information.
If I use Java or perl, it takes 5 to 10 times longer to process than if
I write it in C++.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: "Pedro Iglesias" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Need some advice on Linux
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:37:38 GMT
> A PC (AMD Athlon 1 Ghz) has been shipped to me with Windows Me
> installed in it. The disk size is 30 GB. I wanted to know what I need
> to do now to install Linux on it (but retain the Windows Me). Please
> advise. I am new to Linux but I have always used Unix and I bought the
> PC so that I could install and learn Linux on it.
> Thanks
Defragment disk and use Partition Magic or fips >=2.0 to resize WinME
partition size and then install Linux on one or several partitions in the
remaining
space. I suggest 4GB for Windows and 22GB for GNU/Linux (one or two
distributions) ... the other 4GB are ok for Solaris on Intel :)
------------------------------
From: Osugi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights?
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:29:30 GMT
In article <8uv1ks$uuj$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I installed Mandrake 7.1 last night and managed to get on the internet
> today (will wonders never cease).
>
> However, while reading news with Netscape's (4.7x, I believe)
Collabra,
> things totally locked up on me. Somehow I managed to get out of kde
> and down to the command prompt.
>
> At that point while reading the man pages for "zip", things locked up
> again. Never could get out of that gracefully till I stumbled up
ctrl-
> q (iirc) which rebooted the computer. From there, I just gave up and
> went back into Win98.
Just an uneducated guess, but if you just went to a console and left
the misbehaving netscape process running, it might have caused some
problems - that isn't supposed to happen (and almost never does), but
you never know.
You weren't running netscape as root, were you?
> Having read so much here about how Linux is so stable, I'm rather
> surprised at what happened. However, in trying Communicator in the
> past, it locked up on me and I had to reboot Windows, so I suspect the
> Linux version may be just as crappy.
Linux is much more stable than win98. Netscape, however, is not the
most stable linux program - it has some issues. However, 99.999% of the
time, you do not need to reboot. The worst netscape can do is kill the
gui, and that is very rare (I've had it happen maybe two or three times
in the last 18 months). Once you learn your way around linux a bit,
recovering from something like that will not be a problem.
> Is there a decent newsreader out there for Linux that also has the
> ability to view images, or is at least comparable to Free Agent?
>
> Tom
like someone suggested, try pan, which you can get from here:
http://rpmfind.net/linux/RPM/PByName.html
if it isn't on your 7.1 cd. IIRC, pan-0.8.0beta2-1mdk works well, but
try out the newer ones as well.
--
Osugi Sakae
I will not be filed, numbered, briefed or debriefed.
I am not a number, I am a free man. -The Prisoner
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:50:33 -0500
Michael Livshin wrote:
>
> mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > I don't care what anyone says, garbage collectors don't work in
> > complex systems. You either end up running too slowly because the memory
> > manager is taking up too much time, or your process bloats because the
> > memory manager isn't doing enough.
>
> you are quite mad. well, I won't bother with refuting this utterly
> ridiculous claim since you don't care what I say. convenient!
It isn't ridiculous, there are bug reports. I don't have them handy, but
if one wanted to put some time into it, they could find them.
>
> > > good. any chance that it gets standartized?
> >
> > Probably not.
>
> I know. this is called a rhetorical question.
>
> > > I don't mean exceptions. I mean real errors. ones that lead to
> > > segfaults in C/C++ apps, since the stupid app just has no brains to
> > > cope with "out-of-bound" situations.
> >
> > One can catch problems and correct them.
>
> in a running application? without restarting it? and yes, this is a
> real need sometimes.
>
> > > possibility of recovery (or at least very graceful reporting) from
> > > *any* error is quite important for big long-running applications. you
> > > can't recover from a segfault terribly well, I'm afraid.
> >
> > Sure you can.
>
> you run your big long-running programs interactively under gdb?
signal(SIGSEGV, handler)
if you structure your code right, you can continue after an error.
>
> > > yes, from the ones you expect. (no, wrapping your main in a "try {}
> > > catch (...)" doesn't count).
> >
> > Why not?
>
> because all the handling you can supply is "see here, I got this
> exception. if I'm lucky, it can be output to cout and maybe some
> meaningful info will be printed. oh maybe not. bye now!".
With setjmp and longjmp (standard C tricks) one can catch and resume on
hard signals. The trick, as always, is to make sure that you structure
your code correctly and identify and rectify the error.
>
> > > oh, by the way: can you continue from a C++ exception? (answer: no).
> >
> > Why not?
>
> do you always talk about things you know nothing about?
I know quite a it about it.
>
> > > > >also, C++ type system is simply too weak. you have to cast around it
> > > > >to get non-trivially interesting behavior,
> > > >
> > > > No you don't.
> > >
> > > well, I suppose you are right here, in a way. if you *think* in C++.
> > > 'cause I don't, and I find it painful when I try to.
> >
> > What do you mean?
>
> I mean that the ontological flexibility of C++ is so puny that I have
> to adjust my ways of thinking to match the language, instead of the
> other way around. and naturally I don't like that. YMMV.
The work I do is usually very processing intensive and memory intensive.
Leaving it up to the environment is too sloppy.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Need some advice on Linux
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:48:32 GMT
In article <8uvcrc$8ih$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> A PC (AMD Athlon 1 Ghz) has been shipped to me with Windows Me
> installed in it. The disk size is 30 GB. I wanted to know what I need
> to do now to install Linux on it (but retain the Windows Me). Please
> advise. I am new to Linux but I have always used Unix and I bought the
> PC so that I could install and learn Linux on it.
> Thanks
Install a second drive for Linux. I can find 20GB drives locally for
less than $100US now, and it makes the install simple and painless.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "kosh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:58:09 +0700
In article <8uv6t2$3jn$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "tom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Too true; but it hasn't ever taken me out of X11 that I can remember.
>>
>> You may want to look into using KDE's Konqorer until Mozilla comes out.
>
> The "crash" itself didn't take me out. I somehow forced my way out.
>
>> > Is there a decent newsreader out there for Linux that also has the
>> > ability to view images, or is at least comparable to Free Agent?
>>
>> http://www.superpimp.org
>
> Pan looks promising. Dumb question: which file(s) do I need to
> download? I know Mandrake can use rpm's, but there are about five
> different one's listed, perhaps for different systems? (I have a P266.)
>
> Tom
>
type urpmi pan
Mandrake knows which disks have pan on it and what the deps are. urpmi
will take care of that. Another option is to type pan at the command line
and if all the correct files are installed it will ask to install it when
you run it.
Hope that helps.
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More Linux good news!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:00:35 GMT
How did you know my lucky number?
Really!
claire
On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:17:09 +0100, Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Pretty good article.
>>
>> claire
>
>The answer is 42
>
>Cheers
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:02:23 -0600
"." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > No. I stated that those OS's don't report uptime via the network. They
> > certainly do report uptime locally on the system they're on. Netcraft
has a
> > list of sites that do not provide uptime at:
>
> No, you didn't. If you had specifically stated the 'via the network'
> part, there could have been no confusion.
You need to read my statement in context of the discussion. The discussion
is about the uptimes reported by uptime.netcraft.com, not about uptimes
reported on local machines.
If you had bothered to consider the context, there would be no confusion.
------------------------------
From: "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:46:39 GMT
"Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Christopher Smith wrote:
> [snip]
> > > I assumed it operated on the same bugs that so many other virii have
> > > taken advantage of.
> >
> > Such as ?
> >
> > > So replace ILOVEYOU with the virus of your choice
> > > that IS related to the above problems, and the point is still valid.
> >
> > Examples ?
> >
> > > Is ILOVEYOU another one of the fireworks/south park attachment clones
> > > instead? If it's an attachment the user has to run manually, it's not a
> > > virus...
> >
> > Yes, it has to be run manually. No, it's not a virus. It's a trojan and,
> > as such, is possible under any OS.
>
> That's a rather bold assertion.
> Easy example. I put in an html page (or html e-mail) a link. Visible
> string tells anything reasonable such as www.microsoft.com, or
> Photograph, etc. Underlying link (which you don't see) contains:
> "C:\WINDOWS\rundll.exe User,ExitWindows". This, with crappy MS software
> (OS+IE or OS+OE) will shut down your computer even if you have disabled
> ActiveX, VB, and Javascript.
> Technically is a trojan, but anybody can be fooled and no other OS (IE
> is now part of the OS, they say!) in the world, however bad, is
> vulnerable to such a simple trick.
You can't shut down the system in Linux? What? You can as root, but
not a user?
Same way in NT, so this argument is really irrelevant.
In an enterprise environment, the workstations would/should be locked
down in such a way that viruses become irrelevant.
Email viruses are easily defeated with rules and virus scanning software.
-Chad
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux INstability & Netscape : Insights?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:03:07 GMT
You better duck Tom :)
Linux doesn't have any problems like that at all.
Just ask the fine folks around here :)
claire
On Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:10:41 GMT, tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I installed Mandrake 7.1 last night and managed to get on the internet
>today (will wonders never cease).
>
>However, while reading news with Netscape's (4.7x, I believe) Collabra,
>things totally locked up on me. Somehow I managed to get out of kde
>and down to the command prompt.
>
>At that point while reading the man pages for "zip", things locked up
>again. Never could get out of that gracefully till I stumbled up ctrl-
>q (iirc) which rebooted the computer. From there, I just gave up and
>went back into Win98.
>
>Having read so much here about how Linux is so stable, I'm rather
>surprised at what happened. However, in trying Communicator in the
>past, it locked up on me and I had to reboot Windows, so I suspect the
>Linux version may be just as crappy.
>
>Is there a decent newsreader out there for Linux that also has the
>ability to view images, or is at least comparable to Free Agent?
>
>Tom
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: "Colin R. Day" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Disapointed in the election
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:04:04 -0500
Michael Vester wrote:
>
> In Canada, we are in the middle of a federal election. Our
> elections only last for 6 weeks not the 2 years of an American
> presidential race. The Prime Minister can call an election
> whenever it is convienient for the ruling party. We have 5
> viable parties to pick from although one is a seperatist party
> with candidates only in Quebec. They were the "official"
> opposition until the last election. Only in Canada, a party
> can have a platform of destroying the country. In other
> countries, this is called treason and the organizers are
> rounded up and shot.
>
Nope, that didn't happen in the US in 1861-1865. Some 600,000
soldiers died, but none were shot for treason.
Colin Day
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Mandrake, thoughts? Opinions?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 02:07:46 GMT
On Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:11:04 +0100, "Frank Van Damme"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>OK, do so. Laugh with people who try Linux, consider it good enough to
>keep it and use it intensively.
Good enough for you, a student I presume, is not good enough for me
> Personally, I laugh at dumb-asses who
>still use an ever-crashing windowsbox and claim they're using something
>userfriendly. I also like jokes, cartoons and wallpapers about Gates and
>MS.
My Windows box never crashes. I do however enjoy the Gates/MS cartoons
as much as the Linux ones.
>You're really starting to annoy me with your idiot comments. Go laugh at
>people at comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy.
No reason to laugh at an operating system that has 90 percent or more
of the desktop.
>Are you sure you have seen a computer before?
Long before your parents ever decided to waste their money sending you
to school.
Figure out how to access Napster through the schools firewall yet?
claire
------------------------------
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