Linux-Advocacy Digest #320, Volume #30 Mon, 20 Nov 00 02:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Of course, there is a down side... ("Les Mikesell")
Re: MS Office goes SUBSCRIPTION! ("Patrick Raymond Hancox")
Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux (Topaz Crow)
Re: Of course, there is a down side... (Mike Byrns)
Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux? ("Les Mikesell")
Re: I thought Linux was always available free of charge? (mark)
Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux ("Les Mikesell")
Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux ("Les Mikesell")
Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: MS Office goes SUBSCRIPTION! ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: Linux Can't find PC133 memory??? (mark)
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? ("Erik Funkenbusch")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Of course, there is a down side...
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:12:46 GMT
"Mike Byrns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > I usually have a need for that sort of text transformation several times
> > a day.
>
> That's you pal.
I take it you like retyping everything?
> > The same group that reformats their disks and reloads windows for them
> > when the OS screws up could teach them while they wait for the
> > operation to complete.
>
> That's a group that only the linux folks seem to know. Some people do
that when
> they don't understand something but their Windows savvy buddy (if he's
really
> that) would just explain how to reassociate app with extension or whatever
the
> small problem is.
The usual problem is unpredictable crashes with or without an error dialog
about the *.dll involved.
> You are grasping for straws here Les. Most people don't do
> what you do with those name lists. They couldn't care less about regex.
> Notepad or edit or wordpad is better targeted to THEM. Not you.
What kind of person doesn't work with text - or manipulate it a bit?
> > Or, if they had grep they could learn it in a natural process extending
> > from plain strings.
>
> They have grep. Start:Find:File and Folders. BTW it does to regexps if
you
> look ;-) BTW, go back to the mall and ask people about "grep". See what
you
> get...
I don't see anything resembling regexps in there. How do you
ask it to match repeated strings?
> > Hmm, Excel might do that particular operation if you imported the
> > data as delimited text into 2 columns, but that is a complex process.
> > Who would teach them to do that?
>
> File, Open? Sure, I'll do that. You see Les, it recognizes the file
format and
> offers to help the user.
The first 'helpful' thing it does is hide the file so you don't see it
at all in the file/open dialog. You already have to know more than
simple regexps to get past that.
So, a couple of minutes later you have it in 2 columns in Excel with the
comma gone. You can cut and paste one column to the other position,
then delete the now blank 1st column. Now how do you get it saved
without a tab or comma delimiter being put back?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Reply-To: "Patrick Raymond Hancox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Patrick Raymond Hancox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS Office goes SUBSCRIPTION!
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:14:33 -0800
Calm down Charlie, it's just software in the end.
As I read the press release, he (Erik) is correct* Any updates that come out
during a subscription period are released no-charge. As you noted, when the
subscription is expired the user will no longer have access to the Office 10
service/application/portal/whatever. Isn't this just like a newspaper is not
delivering after you stop subscribing. Non-subscription versions of office
appear to be avaible in the usual way (i.e. CD-ROM).
To me this is notheing surprising to hear. The ASP model is something MS has
been kicking around for a while, but yet to implement large scale. They have
been doing some small ASP tests using the Windows Terminal Server product
and Office2000 for about 1 year now. This is the first big deploy.
Might be a good thing, might not, hardly earthshaking in any case.
Patrick
* quote marketing blather below*
>>>LAS VEGAS -- Nov. 13, 2000 -- Today at COMDEX/Fall 2000, Microsoft Corp.
announced a new subscription offering for "Office 10," the code name for the
next version of Microsoft® Office, which will provide customers with an
exciting new opportunity to subscribe to the world's leading desktop
productivity suite for an annual fee. This new model will enable home and
small-business customers to acquire the latest version of Office at a lower
initial cost while receiving product upgrades released during their
subscription at no additional expense. Customers will be able to obtain
their subscription via a new packaged product at retail stores in select
worldwide regions when "Office 10" becomes available toward the end of the
first half of 2001. The subscription can be renewed annually via telephone
or over the Internet, or by acquiring a new subscription product at retail
stores.
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <i%_R5.9167$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> >What's your point? If you plan to stay current with the software, it's a
> >great deal.
> >
>
> Nice try meathead. The subscription doesn't update any of your
> software. When your subscription time is UP - YOU ARE OFF!
>
> The way your talking about this thing you'd think you
> knew what the fuck you were talking about.
>
> I'm talking about MS OFFICE 10, not DEBIAN you moron.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
> >If you don't, you can just buy the non-subscription version.
> >
> >"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >>
> >> The END commeth NEARETH WINTROLLS!
> >>
> >> Microsoft has announced subscription based service
> >> for MS Office 10.
> >>
> >> http://www.microsoft.com/PressPass/press/2000/Nov00/SubscriptionPR.asp
> >>
> >> BTW, I cut this from my Netscape navigator and pasted it in SLRN
> >> in a terminal box.
> >>
> >> Love
> >>
> >> Charlie
> >>
> >
> >
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Topaz Crow)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux
Date: 20 Nov 2000 06:17:04 GMT
Reply-To: alt.anonymous.messages;ATTN: Topaz Crow
On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:37:42 -0800, Keldon Warlord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>"Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:qx1S5.87207$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> news:8v60jc$907$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > Terrible argument. You would lose the war for sure.
>>
>>
>> Yeah I know, you can get solitaire *and* minesweeper in linux, what will I
>> use windows for now?
>>
>
>do they have something along the lines of winamp for Linux? :-)
>
>(hey, I'm just asking...)
>
I hope your joking!
--
Topaz Crow -- No replies by email, sorry.
Reply to alt.anonymous.messages Subject: ATTN: Topaz Crow
PGP/GPG: DSS: 0xBADA36EA RSA: 0x357245A1
Using SuSE 7.0 and Slackware 7.1
------------------------------
From: Mike Byrns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Of course, there is a down side...
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:19:30 GMT
Les Mikesell wrote:
> "Mike Byrns" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > I usually have a need for that sort of text transformation several times
> > > a day.
> >
> > That's you pal.
>
> I take it you like retyping everything?
Bah, I'd use Excel.
> > > The same group that reformats their disks and reloads windows for them
> > > when the OS screws up could teach them while they wait for the
> > > operation to complete.
> >
> > That's a group that only the linux folks seem to know. Some people do
> that when
> > they don't understand something but their Windows savvy buddy (if he's
> really
> > that) would just explain how to reassociate app with extension or whatever
> the
> > small problem is.
>
> The usual problem is unpredictable crashes with or without an error dialog
> about the *.dll involved.
Really? Please document.
> > You are grasping for straws here Les. Most people don't do
> > what you do with those name lists. They couldn't care less about regex.
> > Notepad or edit or wordpad is better targeted to THEM. Not you.
>
> What kind of person doesn't work with text - or manipulate it a bit?
People that use Word and Excel -- AKA the vast majority of the world.
> > > Or, if they had grep they could learn it in a natural process extending
> > > from plain strings.
> >
> > They have grep. Start:Find:File and Folders. BTW it does to regexps if
> you
> > look ;-) BTW, go back to the mall and ask people about "grep". See what
> you
> > get...
>
> I don't see anything resembling regexps in there. How do you
> ask it to match repeated strings?
Try it why don't you. Put that code in you used before. If it doesn't work DL
a grep clone. They are not unique to nix.
> > > Hmm, Excel might do that particular operation if you imported the
> > > data as delimited text into 2 columns, but that is a complex process.
> > > Who would teach them to do that?
> >
> > File, Open? Sure, I'll do that. You see Les, it recognizes the file
> format and
> > offers to help the user.
>
> The first 'helpful' thing it does is hide the file so you don't see it
> at all in the file/open dialog. You already have to know more than
> simple regexps to get past that.
Drop the file type list man.
> So, a couple of minutes later you have it in 2 columns in Excel with the
> comma gone. You can cut and paste one column to the other position,
> then delete the now blank 1st column. Now how do you get it saved
> without a tab or comma delimiter being put back?
Save As, choose txt. Does it bother you that there's no need to code here?
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux?
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:37:27 GMT
"Donovan Rebbechi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 03:37:20 GMT, Les Mikesell wrote:
>
> >When I was using a SysV version of g++ to try to compile the newest
> >changes to the hylafax source, the results were in fact unpredictable.
> >I'd be a lot more interested in the language if I could expect the same
> >source to compile to the same program on different platforms and/or
> >compiler versions.
>
> Are you sure that the "unpredictability" is due to C++ language features ?
> It's not like C doesn't have its own portability issues. They usually pop
> up when you use different libraries.
I assumed that the problems had to do with the differences in
implementations
of the compilers, not what they were theoretically supposed to be doing.
At the time, C portability among the systems in question was pretty
well understood and I think I could have fixed any problems relating
to porting to SysV if needed. But, the combination of not understanding
what the source was trying to do and a compiler that didn't either made it
pretty hopeless and I had to wait for someone else to do it.
> >Are there a variety of implementations of STL that can be used in
> >any compiler?
>
> Yes, for small values of "any".
>
> http://www.stlport.org/doc/platforms.html
Interesting - the need for such a thing sort of underscores the problem
though. Including hash tables seems like such an obvious extension
that you have to wonder why they aren't in the standard.
> This would make it more portable than glib, for example.
I'd hate to write something that relied on non-standard glib features
too.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mark)
Subject: Re: I thought Linux was always available free of charge?
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:43:45 +0000
In article <8va6vf$fc6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, sfcybear wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >Or the grossly overpriced distributions in the superstores like
>> >CompUSA.
>> >
>> >There is one that is in this big fat box (Professional Linux?)that
>> >includes all kinds of archive CD's, various distributions and
>> >essentially a collection of junk that you can get for free on the
>net.
>> >
>> >It sells for $149.00.
>> >
>> >What a gross rip off.
>> >
>> >claire
>> >
>>
>> Here's one where I will AGREE with Claire.
>>
>> The price of Suse, Mandrake, RedHat Deluxe, and others have
>> risen to $80 from $45-55 range.
>>
>> I have one word which covers this subject.
>>
>> DEBIAN.
>>
>> Enough said.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>
>Funny, I get my mandrake for free off the internet.
>
Yeah, that's where I get my debian from.
It's nice having a choice here. Microsoft users didn't get that choice,
a situation for which we, as linux users, should offer sympathy. Or
possibly some guidance regarding where they can get an OS for less than
Microsoft would charge, try:
http://www.debian.org
Happy to help,
Mark
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:49:41 GMT
"Keldon Warlord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
>
> do they have something along the lines of winamp for Linux? :-)
>
> (hey, I'm just asking...)
>
Of course. Xmms and freeamp are the obvious contenders, but a search
on freshmeat.net for mp3 shows hundreds of related programs from
web jukeboxes to network streaming broadcasters to programs to
build dedicated car players.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.linux,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: I have had it up to *here* with Linux
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 06:54:51 GMT
"Keldon Warlord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > Direct-X allows the use of all types of plugin's for programs like
> > > SoundForge and it allows manipulation of the sound as well as
> > > interoperability between programs (ie: the plugin appears as a menu
> > > item in all programs that support Direct-X).
> >
> > Interoperability? Is that what you call it when most programs
> > you try to run refuse and tell you to install a different version
> > of Direct-X first? What is this month's flavor?
> >
> >
>
> refuse to run??? ....oh dear lord...look, try and RUN a few of the
Direct-X
> programs before you puke up your nonsensical babble to the masses!
>
> here's a clue to the ignorant Linux user: a Windows program that requires
> Direct-X only checks what version you have AT THE INSTALL. If it requires
> Direct-X 5.0 and you have Direct-X 7.0, you'll only be advised to keep
your
> latest version AND THE PROGRAM WILL STILL RUN.
>
Either you came into the party late or you run kinder, gentler games
than I used to see. The ones doing 2.0 and nearby versions would either
install their own favorite flavor, possibly clobbering things needed
by others or refuse to run, or try to run and crash. The machine used
for that nonsense has obviously been reformatted so I don't think I
can verify the actual version numbers involved but it wasn't pretty.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux?
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:03:06 -0600
"The Ghost In The Machine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message
> I think part of the problem is bad implementations of C++ in other
> systems; for example, Microsoft has the interesting notion of
> putting the VTBL pointer at the *top* of the root class, rather than
> at the bottom. I don't know what does to multiple inheritance and
> memory layout issues, but it's just -- different. (If one uses
> pure virtual base classes, it doesn't make much difference, I
> would think.) I've also caught Microsoft VC++ in at least one
> strange memory corruption bug, although I forget the details now.
Virtually every windows compiler also implements their vtbl at the top.
But, this is language dependant.
> There are also some not-so-pretty issues regarding STL on Microsoft.
> I think Microsoft C++ is the only one where one has to use
> 'std::map', 'std::vector', etc., whereas everyone else is more
> or less sensible -- although part of that sensibility is because G++
> didn't get around to implementing namespaces until rather recently. :-)
You're complaining because VC++ follows the standard in this regard?
And MSC is not the only compiler that requires this. Borland C++,
MetroWerks, etc... all do.
> (Side point: Microsoft's C++ implementation of ostrstring sucks eggs:
> O(N^2) time problem because of the way it allocates memory. I've
> seen this in no other system, and it's had me do some ugly workarounds.)
strstring is deprecated. stringstream is the standard object.
> And then there are the operator overloads, requiring one to think
> as to what it really means when one writes a + b. Not quite
> as bad as C#, perhaps ('a.x = 1' can be translated into a
> function call?) but it can get confusing if a and b have many
> casts, subclasses, superclasses, or what not.
Borland does this as well. C# was designed by Anders Hejlsberg who also
designed Delphi.
> One other issue involves virtuals. A poorly designed system with
> many virtuals might start doing very odd things, as a derived class
> might be doing something in its implementation that the base class
> never expected, or it forgot to call its base class prior to doing
> its thing, or it's skipping a class calling its grandfather
> (I've seen that in at least one project!), and so on.
> There are also issues regarding assignment operators and copy
> constructors; if done right, they work well, but if not, well,
> they don't. :-)
Kind of like memory management in C ;)
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS Office goes SUBSCRIPTION!
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:04:55 -0600
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <i%_R5.9167$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> >What's your point? If you plan to stay current with the software, it's a
> >great deal.
> >
>
> Nice try meathead. The subscription doesn't update any of your
> software. When your subscription time is UP - YOU ARE OFF!
>
> The way your talking about this thing you'd think you
> knew what the fuck you were talking about.
>
> I'm talking about MS OFFICE 10, not DEBIAN you moron.
Try paying attention instead. If you plan to stay current with Office,
buying each new version as it comes out, it's cheaper to go the subscription
route than it is to repurchase office after every release.
Also, it doesn't stop working after your subscription is up. It simply
stops allow you to create new documents.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mark)
Subject: Re: Linux Can't find PC133 memory???
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 07:00:43 +0000
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Charlie Ebert wrote:
>And Linux still grows and grows and grows and grows and grows.
>It's providing Microsoft a run for their money.
>
>I would think early on Microsoft would make some attempt
>at improving the quality of their product considering the
>pressure.
>
I think they already have done, it was win2k. It doesn't seem
to have caught the public's imagination, this time.
Never mind,
Mark
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 01:06:59 -0600
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > The chart is meaningless. Again, Netcraft says categorically that NT4
SP4,
> > 5 and 6 are either completley incapable of providing uptime information
or
> > give completely inaccurate results. Since SP4 includes the Y2k patches,
it
> > seems likely that Starbucks could have only been running SP5, since SP4
and
> > SP6 don't give uptime information at all. And SP5 gives random uptime
> > results (not even counting the 49.7 day problem). Thus, you can't draw
any
> > conclusions from the NT4 graph other than NT4's uptime is inaccurate.
>
> Translation: Microsoft is incapable of writing an accurate "uptime"
> program for LoseDOS Neutered Technology.
>
> Why is that?
Well, neither is Sun or or the Linux developers either. Since both of those
give incorrect results after a ceratain amount of time as well.
When will you learn that you should watch what you say, since the same
argument can be used against you?
------------------------------
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