Linux-Advocacy Digest #426, Volume #30 Sun, 26 Nov 00 00:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: The Sixth Sense (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: The Sixth Sense (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: The Sixth Sense (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: The Sixth Sense (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (Chris Ahlstrom)
C++ is very alive! (Charlie Ebert)
Re: KDE2 (A transfinite number of monkeys)
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? ("Mike")
Re: Of course, there is a down side... (B. P. Uecker)
Re: C++ is very alive! (mlw)
Re: The Sixth Sense (Curtis)
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Donovan Rebbechi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:12:45 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > As a professional MCSE (morbidly cynical software engineer),
> > I recommend you slick the disk and reinstall everything from
> > scratch. Bring along a good book.
>
> That is just the attidue that I hate when people talk about windows
> instability.
Hey, with Windows 3.51, it was a hard and fast fact, verified empirically
a number of times by each member of our team. It really made me wonder
why the jerk project leader decided to go with NT.
> I just came back from a very frustrated linux user who called me and started
> cursing windows.
> Why? His linux would refuse to run (he pull the plug on his system after the
> system refused to respond to halt & reboot commands, and his file systems
> are now accesible in read mode only, and only by root), he didn't have any
> linux installation disks, but he did have a spare HD and a win98 cd.
> It would be easier, he figured out, to just install windows, find out on the
> web what the problem was, and fix it.
> Win setup complained about a file missing, but kept installing.
> On loading, windows complain about a vnetbios.vxd missing, and he couldn't
> get windows to dial up.
> He called me, asked for advice, I told him to search for the file in the
> registery, search in the cab dir on win98 for the file, and extract to the
> path.
> Apperantly, it was too difficult for him, so he just format and reinstalled.
> Same problem. (bad cd)
> He called me, asking me to come over, and in the mean time, did it *again*.
>
> I came to him and had to wait half an hour to the installation to be done
> with, and then it took me five minutes to fix the problem.
> Oh, and one reboot, because you'd to de-install & install TCP/IP
What a WEIRD installation experience, even for Windozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!
> All in all, he wasted a day (multiply installation plus the applications he
> installed on windows that would now have to be reinstalled) that could've
> been solved in less than 5 minutes.
> And that is a regular user of slackware 7.1
> I excpected more from him than the average user.
Why, just because some doofus tried to use Linux?
> Rant off, I'm having a bad day with linux & its users.
Unfortunately, I know only one other Linux user locally, personally
(I gave him my copy of Mandrake 6.5 since I opted for RedHat 6.2
for reasons related to the gcc compiler and the pgcc pentium-optimized
compiler).
He uses Linux for CD-burning and generally sees the sense in it.
Chris
--
[ ] Encrypt Microsoft.
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:16:48 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> "Chad Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:PvST5.5571$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > BZZZZZZT Wrong answer, While Win2K does perform nicely with 128MB RAM it
> > performs rather well with a mere 32-48MB RAM as well.
>
> I also tested it on a 133 with 32MB (server version, you only need 64 for
> the install) I wouldn't use it as my desktop, but it serves quite well as a
> small server.
You're using Windows 2000 Server on this machine. I truly don't
believe it. 2000 Pro's performance for me was intolerable on a similar
machine. Even Win98 on the same machine, with a 32MB memory injection
(total of 64 MB) sucks royally.
Maybe you guys need to try Linux to see what a really responsive
system is like.
Win2000 on 96 Mb performs pretty shitty, as far as I can tell.
Note that I'm talking about disk caching and the user interface.
The networking code on Win2000 works damn fast.
Chris
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:19:16 GMT
PLZI wrote:
>
> I did not take any standing about the MS being monopoly, illegal or not - I
> simply do not care. I leave the suing of companies and people to the US of A.
> I'm simply talking the technical merits of the platform. This always seems to
> be the last line fo defense - when nobody comes up with the answers,
> everybody always defaults to "but ms is the evil empire!" - line in the end.
> Sad.
It's taken Microsoft only about 20 years to advance in technical merit
to where they can argue some form of parity with UNIX. Of course, about
7 years ago they were already claiming that they licked UNIX. Lo and
behold, *NIX makes a comeback.
Chris
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:21:25 GMT
Chad Mulligan wrote:
>
> BZZZZZZT Wrong answer, While Win2K does perform nicely with 128MB RAM it
> performs rather well with a mere 32-48MB RAM as well.
Having experience Win2K on that amount of memory, I wonder just how
low your expectations have sunk. What did you do with it, run
NotePad?
So, I think your statement is bullshit. Yank my chain again,
Winboy.
Chris
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:24:22 GMT
Chad Mulligan wrote:
>
> Most likely the same, MS saw this as a PR/Marketing problem and did what
> they do best, give the customer's what they want.
Man, a decade of rants and raves from magazine writers about the
bugs and catastrophes published by the 600-pound Microsoft
gorilla make what you say utter crap.
Then again, in spite of all the agonistes, Microsoft did
get 90% of the desktop market. Sounds like they write
better office suites than OS's.
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:30:36 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> FAT & NTFS are indeed more robust than ext2 in this regard.
Can you tell me where to find "Diskeeper for Linux ext2"?
Thanks!
Chris
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: C++ is very alive!
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 03:54:04 GMT
Aren't you people forgetting that HURD is based
on C++ with that microkernel technology.
They are going the be the C++ club of the future.
C++ is far from dead. It's just not being used
as few old timers really understand how to use it.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (A transfinite number of monkeys)
Subject: Re: KDE2
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:13:47 GMT
On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 15:17:38 -0800, Transport <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: A transfinite number of monkeys wrote:
:
: > On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:14:58 +0200, James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: > : IMHO the Gnome team is now in serious catchup mode.
: >
: > Since it's your opinion, I'm sure you can back that up with a
: > justification,
: > RIGHT? Let's hear it.. KDE still looks very cartoony to me. If I want a
: > cartoon, I'll go watch TV...
:
: Sorry to butt in, but I'm using KDE2 and like it alot. What 'justification'
: are you looking for ?
"James" says that the GNOME team is in "serious catchup mode". I want
a justification of why.
: KNode is a nice news reader, Konqueror is a good
: browser. "Cartoony" - your opinion I guess. Looks like a GUI to me. Look,
: 007, I haven't tried Gnome or any other windows mgr., but KDE works, has
: alot of good features - if that's "cartoony", so be it.
Um, I'm not your "007", try reading again. It's called a citation.
--
Jason Costomiris <>< | Technologist, geek, human.
jcostom {at} jasons {dot} org | http://www.jasons.org/
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
------------------------------
From: "Mike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:17:42 GMT
"Donovan Rebbechi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:10:37 GMT, Mike wrote:
> >
>
> >Without going into the historical context, what customers demand is an
> >editable document.
>
> They may or they may not. It depends on the type of document.
>
> HTML is editable (and modern word processors can import it).
>
> RTF is also editable and can be created on any platform.
Sure it depends on the document. There are lots of those where format
doesn't matter: presentation foils, memos, emails, and so on. In general,
nobody cares what format those are in. But when a document has to go into a
document control system, and be added to other specifications, and be
modified and returned for approval, and modified by others when they create
similar specs later, and so on, LaTex isn't going to cut the mustard. It's
just not a common, accepted format.
The point I was trying to make was that using an editable text file, LaTex
or otherwise, to do word processing isn't viable, because we don't just
create documents for ourselves. Today, it's a given that others who come
later are going to have to edit and change the stuff I create. Similarly, I
don't create new specs from scratch - I use the documents that were created
before. Donn's original point was, "...in a nutshell, I think word
processors suck. I ... [use] html and LaTeX as a substitute."
Presumably, if he thinks word processors suck, he's not using one to do his
editing, and he's not likely to read in HTML or RTF.
Even if he was using a word processor, HTML is neither a page description
language or a viable word processor storage format, and browsers like
Netscape still have a difficult time printing it correctly. It's not good at
tables, can't handle arbitrary embedded graphics, has no inherent equation
capabilities, or much of an ability to handle complex page formatting, not
to mention references, footnotes, page numbers, and on and on. That's not a
bad thing: HTML is great for browsers. But trying to substitute HTML for a
word processor isn't viable unless you don't do much.
RTF is another matter. It's a fine word processor storage format, but I'd
have a really tough time believing anyone if they said they could produce a
complex specification using only RTF and a text editor. I'd have an easier
time believing it could be done in LaTex because things like equations in a
LaTex document are part of the language. But something as simple as an
embedded equation in RTF is saved in a long sequence of meaningless
characters. Some of the characters are used to reconstruct the reference to
the program that created the equation (so it can be edited later), and some
of them contain the graphical representation needed to draw the equation in
the document. In LaTex, those would be programming constructs - human
readable and editable. In RTF, they are essentially meaningless information,
and only become meaningful when read and interpreted by the word processor
that he hates. It's hard to imagine that Donn could recreate the RTF
information for a simple equation using a text editor, and even harder to
imagine that he'd want to.
-- Mike --
------------------------------
From: B. P. Uecker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Of course, there is a down side...
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 22:33:04 -0600
mark wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>>"B. P. Uecker" wrote:
>>>
>>> Matt Gaia wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>>
>>> >You've obviously never heard of hardware probing, have you? Any OS will
>>> >probe whatever hardware is on your system to see what is on there (like
>>> >your BIOS, etc.) By your previous posts, I can probably assume that you
>>> >don't have any knowledge of it besides maybe seeing the word "probing"
>>> >on your screen during a Windows setup, if you can even do your own setup
>>> >that is.
>>>
>>> Yeah, it probed your battery and broke it. Was this before or after
>>> you dropped acid?
>>
>>Last weekend, I probed your girlfriend for a couple of hours.
>
>Gaaaaaaarrrrrrrrkkkkk :-)
>
>I do so like a nice, simple to understand, analogy. It really
>greases my wheels (or something...)
Actually, it was my boyfriend he probed. I'm not surprised he
couldn't tell the difference...
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: C++ is very alive!
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:37:43 -0500
Charlie Ebert wrote:
>
> Aren't you people forgetting that HURD is based
> on C++ with that microkernel technology.
>
> They are going the be the C++ club of the future.
>
> C++ is far from dead. It's just not being used
> as few old timers really understand how to use it.
!!! Warning!!! The following reads like flame bait, to many it may be.
It is not intended to be. !!
I know lots of engineers that use C++.
If I should be so bold, software engineers use tools like C++,
programmers use stuff like Java or VB. There is a difference, and it is
important to remember.
What is an AVL tree, can you write one?
What is a hash table, how would you write one?
What is a radix?
How does bsearch work? Could you write one?
What is a histogram? Can you write one?
When is qsort a bad choice?
What other types of sorting algorithms are there, and what are the
pros/cons?
What would you a histogram for?
What would you use an AVL tree for? How about a hash table?
How does a linked list work? How about a double linked list?
How do you simulate subtraction with addition?
Which can be written more efficiently, divide by 3 or divide by 4?
On a pentium which is more efficient integer arithmetic or or floating
precision? How about PIII? Why?
What is the advantage of keeping objects in memory closer to one
another? When/how is this a problem in a multitasking multiprocessor
environment?
What are the trade-offs between fixed memory block allocation vs
variable block?
How about first fit, last fit, or best bit allocation strategies?
These are all very important questions (and only scratching the
surface). If you do not know these sorts of things cold, then you are a
programmer and are probably better off doing stuff in Java or some other
limited environment until you learn more. It isn't until you understand
these sorts of things do you understand how to develop software.
I am aware that many will be pissed off by this attitude, but in
defense, it should be noted that a good number of people take software
development seriously. We spend years learning and improving our skills.
It takes an amount of dedication to get to the point where the question
about how to do something is a no brainer, and the tricks are purely
implementation issues on ever changing platforms.
C++ isn't dead, far from it. It is a power tool. people with few skills
are scared of powertools. Craftsmen love powertools because they know
how to use them, they make the job easier and, in the end, make a better
product.
--
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 00:00:34 -0500
Chris Ahlstrom wrote...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > "Chad Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:PvST5.5571$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > BZZZZZZT Wrong answer, While Win2K does perform nicely with 128MB RAM it
> > > performs rather well with a mere 32-48MB RAM as well.
> >
> > I also tested it on a 133 with 32MB (server version, you only need 64 for
> > the install) I wouldn't use it as my desktop, but it serves quite well as a
> > small server.
>
> You're using Windows 2000 Server on this machine. I truly don't
> believe it. 2000 Pro's performance for me was intolerable on a similar
> machine. Even Win98 on the same machine, with a 32MB memory injection
> (total of 64 MB) sucks royally.
I have to agree with you there. A tolerable starting figure for Win2k is
128MB of RAM.
> Maybe you guys need to try Linux to see what a really responsive
> system is like.
With a Linux system, outfitted with KDE and running similarly capable X-
apps and services, you're looking at pretty hefty resource requirements
as well.
> Win2000 on 96 Mb performs pretty shitty, as far as I can tell.
> Note that I'm talking about disk caching and the user interface.
> The networking code on Win2000 works damn fast.
--
| ,__o
!ACM _-\_<, A thing is not necessarily true because
<(*)>--(*)/'(*)______________________ a man dies for it.
mailto:martian*at*cwjamaica*dot*com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Date: 26 Nov 2000 05:01:00 GMT
On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:17:42 GMT, Mike wrote:
>
>"Donovan Rebbechi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 17:10:37 GMT, Mike wrote:
>> >
>>
>> >Without going into the historical context, what customers demand is an
>> >editable document.
>>
>> They may or they may not. It depends on the type of document.
>>
>> HTML is editable (and modern word processors can import it).
>>
>> RTF is also editable and can be created on any platform.
>
If you are going to write equations, just FORGET about MS word. Dump it like
a hot potato, because it is not up to the job. If you need a lot of equations
in your document, you need either LaTeX or some other professional publishing
software.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Date: 26 Nov 2000 05:06:40 GMT
On Sun, 26 Nov 2000 04:17:42 GMT, Mike wrote:
>
>nobody cares what format those are in. But when a document has to go into a
>document control system, and be added to other specifications, and be modified
>and returned for approval, and modified by others when they create similar
>specs later, and so on, LaTex isn't going to cut the mustard. It's just not a
>common, accepted format.
Sounds like word doesn't really cut it here either, because you will run into
endless versioning compatibility issues and all the problems associated with
attaching oneself to a proprietary vendor.
>Even if he was using a word processor, HTML is neither a page description
>language or a viable word processor storage format,
Word processors can read HTML.
>Netscape still have a difficult time printing it correctly. It's not good at
>tables, can't handle arbitrary embedded graphics, has no inherent equation
>capabilities, or much of an ability to handle complex page formatting, not to
>mention references, footnotes, page numbers, and on and on. That's not a bad
>thing: HTML is great for browsers. But trying to substitute HTML for a word
>processor isn't viable unless you don't do much.
If you need footnotes, cross references, and all that, word processors are
going to start choking too, and you really need some publishing software.
>LaTex document are part of the language. But something as simple as an
>embedded equation in RTF is saved in a long sequence of meaningless
>characters.
I don't see how that's a problem. BTW, word is useless for editing equations.
If you really need to do this, you need DTP software.
>that he hates. It's hard to imagine that Donn could recreate the RTF
>information for a simple equation using a text editor, and even harder to
I wasn't saying he should. My point is that the fact that MS Word is
windows-only is a stupid reason to use windows.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
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