Linux-Advocacy Digest #514, Volume #30 Tue, 28 Nov 00 23:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: Things I have noticed................ (Jacques Guy)
Re: Whistler review. (J.C.)
Re: Whistler review. (J.C.)
Re: Whistler review. ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Netscape review. (Jacques Guy)
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! (Andrew Suprun)
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Charlie Ebert)
Re: C++ -- Our Industry... (Charlie Ebert)
Re: Uptime -- where is NT? (.)
Re: C++ is very alive! (Bob Hauck)
Re: Whistler review. (Bob Hauck)
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Bob Hauck)
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Les Mikesell")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Les Mikesell")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (ELVIS2001)
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Les Mikesell")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 02:49:01 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Things I have noticed................
kiwiunixman wrote:
> I know the post I did was very "wintroll like", however, I am only
> trying to stir a bit of shyte in this newsgroups :)
It take it you meant a byte of shit. Or two.
> with the absence of
> Claire Lynn and co, things have been getting pretty boring, needed to
> post something to liven up the atmosphere.
Now you're asking for it! All right, I'll stand in for Sir Lynn.
> Here are the proper things I have noticed:
[Linonuts' rants deleted]
Tête de noeud.
Voilà! How did I do? "Tête de noeud"? Oh, sorry. That means,
literally and figuratively, "dork" in my lingo. Strangely too,
in Tsureviu, "na ree na kalamu" means anatomically "dork"
(rather, "your dork") and figuratively "you're full of shit"
(Tsureviu, that's a lingo spoken on the southwestern shore of
the Bay of St James and St Phillip, Espiritu Santo Island --
is Claire a Tsureviu? [*]).
[*] In-joke there. "Tsureviu" is the name of a village
and of the language spoken there, but it also happens
to mean "intersex pig". Honest! Was that enough stirring?
Over to you.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (J.C.)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 29 Nov 2000 14:10:19 +1100
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:42:38 +0200, Ayende Rahien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>> ... and for me, it isn't. It just isn't up to Solaris' or BSD's standards.
>There
>> _are_ people out there who've got 2k down as a good server for something
>or the
>> other, or as a good desktop. I don't care -- and there are millions of
>sysadmins
>> who agree with me in my saying that NT/2k just isn't up to Unix's
>standard.
>
>That wasn't what you said.
>You didn't say "for me", you talking about the system as general.
I speak _for_myself_, but I believe I _represent_ sysadmins (like me) in general...
HTH...
In any case it still doesn't change the point. NT/2k just isn't up to Solaris or BSD's
standards. There probably _are_ people out there who have 2k as a nice little
fileserver on
their LAN or as a decent desktop. But it still isn't up to Unix's standard, and that's
the
standard I require and demand as a sysadmin. I am not going to hold NT/2k to a
different
standard than Unix. Why should I?
[snip]
>> >TPC disagree with you.
>>
>> Should I care? Is Mr. TPC a Unix admin? (*sigh*, that's sarcasm...)
>>
>> Why should I trust TPC over my own judgement?
>
>Because it's a test that has been created by unix corporations?
Let me ask you again. Why should I trust TPC over my own judgement? If I was a
Holocaust
survivor, should I take the word of a Holocaust revisionist just because he might be a
better
historian than me?
Why should I trust TPC over my own judgement? My own judgement tells me that NT/2k
falls over
where Unix doesn't; what, that's bullshit, because some corporation disagrees?
[snip]
Welcome to the club =]
--
J.C.
"The free flow of information along data highways being piped into our
homes and offices will permit unimaginable control by a small elite..."
-- 'The Thunder of Justice', pg. 264
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (J.C.)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 29 Nov 2000 14:13:34 +1100
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:40:30 -0500, Simon Palko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>> If MS thinks that they are so hot, why don't they just release the
>> API spec, and challenge someone to come up with something better....
>> and pay the winner a prize
>
>Are you REALLY this dense? The whole Win32 API is freely available for
>ANYONE who wants to look at it. Have you heard of WINE? It's an
>implementation of Win32 on linux (may be on other *nixen now, haven't
>checked up on it in a while).
Um, WINE is purely the result of reverse-engineering... (why would MS
want to help get the w32 api set onto other OSs? to break their monopoly?
I can imagine them wanting that... not...)
>> I'll tell you why....
>> because EVERY DAMNED ENTRY WOULD SMOKE MICROSHAFT'S OWN VERSION!
>
>Ah, you ARE this dense.
Uh...
--
J.C.
"The free flow of information along data highways being piped into our
homes and offices will permit unimaginable control by a small elite..."
-- 'The Thunder of Justice', pg. 264
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:18:52 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:900a34$5s4t8$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > As for the whole .NET thing... Remember,
> > it's a documented fact that MS have illegaly used their power in the
> > market to enforce their own position.
>
> illegally?
> It's not illegal to use your power to enforce your position.
> It's illegal to prevent competitors from competing, which MS hasn't done.
> That is about as far as my understanding of US laws reach, though.
How did you avoid seeing the news about the long trial and subsequent
decision?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:21:33 +0000
From: Jacques Guy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Netscape review.
spicerun wrote:
> If you don't want intelligent people responding to this propaganda, keep it off
> the linux and mac newsgroups.
You really don't need overly much intelligence, just
experience and observation. I have an old AMD K-6
running at 200MHz, a little bit over 399 Bogomips,
and only 64M of RAM, which is rather pathetic these
days. I sometimes manage to get a dozen Netscape
windows open, each connected to a different URL, to
my horror, (some links have this nasty habit of
opening in a new window). Plus mail, plus a
download going on. And a konsole or two elsewhere.
It all works as if I had only a single window open,
usually. Netscape is definitely crash-prone, it
sometimes disappears in a puff of orange smoke,
and it sometimes manages to send the task bar AWOL
(or so I surmise, since the task bar has never
yet disappeared when I was not connected to the
NET, which is when using netscape). All this, running
KDE under Mandrake, which is not known for its
Scrooge McDuck-like parsimonious use of memory.
How all that manages in 64M, if we are to
believe Signor Rahien, search me, but
it does, and the problems seem to stem more from
dreadful throughput (what do get over a copper
pair? 2K/sec max -- and stupid Netscape
seems to wait for a response) than from memory usage.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andrew Suprun)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:20:01 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mike Byrns) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Doh. How do you get a trojan onto a unix machine?
>
>Ask the folks that used them for the widespread DDoS attacks on eBay et.
>al. earlier this year.
May be thay should switch from Windows they currently run on to
some Unix boxes to prevent such kinds of attacks.
Andrew.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:26:19 GMT
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:GlSU5.10851$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Nick Ruisi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Whats the old saying?
> >
> > "Your mouse has moved. You must reboot your system for the changes to
> > take effect. Pressk "OK" to reboot. [OK]"
> >
> > You can't even change the IP address of a ethernet adapter or change the
> > hostname without restarting the system.
>
> Not true. You can change them without restarting. Just ignore the
message.
> It's a bug that the reboot message comes up, except when changing the
> default gateway.
Or if the netbios name is changed to match the tcp name (or for any other
reason) you must reboot, even with win2k.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:37:45 GMT
In article <8vvrt2$as3$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Pete Goodwin wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps people who've been exposed to other systems realize there are
>> better things out there?
>
>Better than Windows or Linux, do you mean?
>
>I've worked on RSX/11M, VAX/VMS, OpenVMS, Ultrix, Digital UNIX, RISC-OS
>and a few others. I switched from RISC-OS at home (a far superior
>desktop at the time) to Windows on Intel simply because it hardware
>floating point. Shortly after that change Windows 95 arrived.
>
>I accept Windows 95/98/ME is unstable but its desktop and hardware
>support is currently better than Linux Mandrake + KDE 2.0.
>
>> For some reason, there's a lot of people out there who will accept
>> paying for useless crap. I wonder if that's unique to the IT
>> industry, or if it goes for any industry where the customer doesn't
>> have expert knowledge?
>
>I assume you're talking about Windows here? You know I could say the
>same about Linux... if you're going to dismiss Windows as "useless
>crap" then I see no reason why I can't do the same with Linux.
>
>--
>---
>Pete
Pete,
I keep having to come back to the FACT that Windows of any form
is UNSTABLE. They are making some BOLD marketing statements
about Whistler being STABLE, but I bet it's not. They have
never achieved stability and they are admiting it by taughting
this marketing fling concerning stability. Why if they
were stable to begin with....
And operating system is only worth it's weight in shit if
you can keep it up and OPERATING for a period of time
exceeding say a week without it crashing or blue screening
under normal business conditions. Windows hasn't made
anything yet which can make it a solid week yet under
business conditions without having to be re-booted.
It's either re-boot or crash. In my work, we turn
them around every 3 days now instead of every day
with W2k. That's an improvement over NT by a little.
The second important aspect which makes all this NULL
and VOID is the FACT that every release of a Window's
OS the price doubles. And it's because of this fact
I'm going to keep declaring Windows dead@WW for 2005.
By 2005, whether they are broken apart or not, the
price of a Windows OS will have exceeded $1,000 per
copy for the desktop and the server will be in
the 5-6 thousand dollar range. It will simply
be too expensive to run the crap and economics
will kill the system.
So,
Attitude or not, it's REALLY NOT YOUR CALL HERE.
Pete is not SUPERMAN. He can't fly around the
world and stop speeding bullets.
You are just Pete and you'll follow along with
the majority just like everybody else sweethart.
Now, in my book as it stands right now,
Windows is useless crap. It's actually legitimate
embezzelment of corporate funds. It's that
malignent tumor on the P&L we all need to shake.
And you need to be a good boy.
Charlie
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert)
Subject: Re: C++ -- Our Industry...
Reply-To: Charlie Ebert:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:38:54 GMT
In article <PhIU5.246991$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, mmnnoo wrote:
>
>But Charlie, you have got it all wrong,
>all you need to do to start a successful online
>business is color-by-numbers with Microsoft
>products. Check out the new section on
>Microsoft's homepage, "Building an Online Business."
>http://www.microsoft.com/business/ecommerce/build/default.asp
>See the section, "Identify IT Solutions." For instance, one
>thing you will need to do is "Offer a great customer experience."
>To do that, simply purchase Microsoft Passport (whatever
>that is). And the step, "Build and manage Web site" is all
>taken care of once you buy Microsoft(R) Commerce Server 2000
>and Microsoft Visual Studio(R). See? Just follow the
>chart, it's as easy as 1.2.3.
>
>"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
><snip>
>> They had NO DESIGN! When asked how did you develop
>> this crap for the last 3 years the answer was
>> we assigned everybody a loose idea of the project
>> in peices and had them spend 1.5 years writing it,
>> then they FITTED the peices together for the other
>> 1.5 years.
><snip>
>
I could say some other things here about OTHER sub-contractors
but since they are HERE on COLA, I DON'T THINK SO TODAY!
THANKS!
Charlie
------------------------------
From: . <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy,alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Uptime -- where is NT?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:39:45 +1300
> > So basically the guy on the phone at MS should have said "Do you expect
> > software testers to test the software properly?"
>
> For those reasons I can't blame software testers, I do blame software
> designers, and managers on top of them. But, given a monopoly condition,
> even such incredible errors don't influence profits, so nobody really
> cares. Except users.
Please excuse me, I didn't mean at all to place the blame on the testers!
Perhaps what I should have said was "Do you expect us at Microsoft to
test our software properly?".
I doubt as many testers as they had would have just sat by and rebooted
without reporting the problems. Professional testers know what they are
doing, but without some kind of support, the bugs they find will not get
fixed. I firmly believe many testers were told things like "Oh, that
happens sometimes, just reboot".
We already know MS don't like to fix bugs unless a major player is
screaming about it... why do they even have a testing procedure? Just to
make sure their product stands up long enough to look pretty and get
purchased?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: C++ is very alive!
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:44:06 GMT
On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:49:14 -0500, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Bob Hauck wrote:
>I can't think of too many applications where performance is not some of
>the an issue.
Sure, but it is _vastly_ overemphasized by many developers. Far too
many work way too hard at performance, and in the end it doesn't
matter. Meanwhile, they aren't doing the things they need to do to
make the software robust and maintainable.
Most applications only need to be "fast enough". It is not generally
necessary to get the maximum possible performance. More to the point,
it is almost never necessary for every part of the system to achieve
the maximum possible performance or even close to it. Simply choosing
the right algorithms for the problem will get you 90% of the way there,
and that is nearly always good enough without you having to go out of
your way.
It is almost always better to spend your limited time and resources on
correctness and robustness and maintainability. I know that lots of
developers disagree with this and feel that performance is always a
huge consideration. In my opinion this is nearly always a
rationalization for building unreliable maintenance nightmares. There
are exceptions to every rule of course, and knowing when you're looking
at one is part of being a good engineer.
>> >I would not mind seeing Java-like features come to C++ in a
>> >standardized form.
>>
>> The last thing C++ needs is more features. It would be nice to have
>> the equivalent of Swing and the other libraries for C++ though.
>
>I guess that is a big difference. I would rather have features which I
>do not use than want a feature that I do not have. Complexity doesn't
>scare me, simplicity for simplicity's sake does.
I believe in the power of simple things. It is perhaps a philosophical
difference, but I'm of the opinion that most things (languages, API's,
window managers) should have the smallest set of features needed to do
the jobs that need doing. Things should be "as simple as possible, but
no simpler". C++ tends to provide five ways of doing everything, and
to me that seems like overkill. Virtually nobody "in the trenches"
knows and understands all five ways anyhow.
The reason I feel this way is twofold. For one thing it is easier to
debug a small set of features than a big set. And that's a big deal.
Look how much effort it is taking to get reasonably complete and
reasonably debugged (but still very buggy) C++ compilers out there in
the world. For another thing, it is easier to master a smaller set of
features. If those features enable you to get the job done, what's the
point of adding more?
I guess I'd rather have a small set of features that work reliably and
predictably and that I fully understand than a big set that I don't
stand a chance of understanding completely. I guess I'm just not smart
enough to grok the whole of C++ and I therefore write more bugs with it
than I should.
I think that the vast majority of C++ users in fact are like me and use
only a subset of the language. They solve all problems using some
arbitrarily-chosen subset, which I think is inferior to solving all
problems using a well-designed subset. The trick is not to be simple
for simple's sake, but to pick the right set of features. That is hard
to do, of course, and different people will have different opinions.
That's ok, I don't mind having lots of good languages to choose from.
Maybe this difference in philosophy is part of the reason the open
source world is less enamored of C++ than the commercial world.
There's a place in the world for big, complex, languages. But there is
also a place, a bigger place I think, for smaller more focused ones.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:44:16 GMT
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:33:56 GMT, kiwiunixman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Bob Hauck wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:05:25 GMT, Matthew Soltysiak
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I have a p3 500...128 meg ram...runs fine...
>> So...I guess you think that's a small machine? What was the man saying
>> about bloatware?
>Finally, someone actually looked at the question. I want an OS that has
>a very small footprint (I don't really care about media players and
>integrated web-browsers), say 200MB, small memory requirement, say,
>around 32MB, if it was done to-day, I would be as happy as a clam.
I'm running with only 48 MB of memory on this P-120 laptop. Works well
enough that I've no plans to upgrade it. However, I'm using the
blackbox window manager and 16-bit color, not the latest 3D gizmo and a
"modern desktop".
The 800 MB disk has only about 250 MB free though, as I have a full
development system (several languages and target cpu's), xemacs,
wordperfect, and a whole slug of network tools on it.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:44:26 GMT
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:49:11 GMT, Pete Goodwin
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <_gIU5.25246$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Most Windows people buy their machines pre-loaded with the components
>> and matching drivers selected by a team of experts on the vendor's
>> staff.
>I'm not most people. I put together my own machines. Yet I have less
>trouble with Windows than I do with Linux.
How many years of experience with Windows? How many with Linux? Did
you build the machine for Windows, or for Linux?
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 03:55:05 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:900dli$5vpfk$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
> > This is win98 - I haven't tried win2k on any low-resource machine. If I
> > wanted to spend that much money I'd get some more RAM too (or
instead...).
> > However, I don't see much performance difference between NT and
> > Win2k on a box with 384 Megs running an in-house app. It just doesn't
> > crash as often as it did with a pre-sp6a NT.
>
> Used as a desktop? Of course you wouldn't see a difference in here.
> There is more than enough resources to supply either NT or 2K.
> Put them under some pressure, and you'll see how 2K excel NT.
No, actually the comparison is with a box running our in-house app
that memory maps a gig and uses it as a database for fast changing
data from commodity exchanges. Before NT's sp6a it used to crash
fairly often (maybe every two weeks) and about half of the time it
would take the whole machine with it. Win2k doesn't crash anymore
but sp6a fixed most of that problem too, and there really isn't much
difference in speed, which on this box is limited by the disk store
underlying the memory map. If you see a difference it must be an
illusion from better caching strategy.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:04:42 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:900dlk$5vpfk$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > >
> > > > You have a strange idea of flying. My 32MB machine crawls if you
> > > > open more than a couple of windows.
> > >
> > > What are you doing on it?
> > > What windows? What services run on the background?
> >
> > A P133 - the office quickstart is the main thing running automatically
and
> > it
> > can't run Media Player 7 playing an mp3. Other players work OK.
>
> Are you sure that the quickstart is the only thing that run on it
> automatically?
> Run msconfig and check.
Good point - it had the MS web server and a bunch of other invisible
gunk in there. Why isn't msconfig one of the things you can find in
a menu somewhere?
> That it is the only think in startmenu or the only thing visible mean very
> little.
> What error that MP7 gives you?
It doesn't give an error, it just doesn't sound right. It works fine on the
box with an 800Mhz PIII and 128 Megs RAM.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: ELVIS2001 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:04:57 GMT
By this logic, then DOS is the superior OS!
>> > vi editing is superior....hands don't leave the main keyboard area.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 04:09:42 GMT
"Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9002v7$5mp65$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > > MS went out of its way to fix this. Did it very fast, too.
> >
> > Note that this was at a time that MS had legal problems over
> > anti-competitive
> > practices. I remember having to upgrade many applications over the
years
> > because they quit working with some particular MS version change or
> service
> > pack, but can't remember the details. Did anyone keep records of which
> > app broke at each change?
>
> So, "MS broke a lot of application." and "I clearly remember that" and
"I've
> no details about it"*
> Somehow, I am finding this statement completely unbelievable.
OK, let's try approaching this from the other direction. How many large
apps
from MS's competitors are you still running unchanged from the first version
of Windows. Or even from 1995?
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
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