Linux-Advocacy Digest #621, Volume #30 Sun, 3 Dec 00 03:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Netscape review. (Jason McNorton)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: Don't believe the hype (jtnews)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (jtnews)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (jtnews)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? ("Tom Wilson")
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? ("Vann")
Re: OS tree - SOUND OFF! ("Les Mikesell")
Re: OS Sound OFF. ("Vann")
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Jason McNorton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Netscape review.
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 01:12:10 -0600
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> >
> > Have you ever developed web pages? Complex ones?
> > Guess who is the one that adher to standards and who is the one who isn't?
> > In this case, Microsoft was the one that most closely adhered standards.
> > Netscape can't *handle* standards.
> > They had to rebuilt their entire codebase because of that.
> > And guess who is the browser that forced me to break my pages' standard
> > compliance before?
> > Guess who is the browser that now force me to hack my own code, in order to
> > fix things that it made me do the wrong way in the first place?
>
> Much as I hate to admit it, you're right. Last summer, when I developed
> some pretty sophisticated web pages, I made the mistake of "debugging"
> them exclusively in Internet Explorer. I got them to the point where I
> thought they were finished, but then I loaded them in Netscape, and the
> damage was pretty severe.
>
> The most egregious example was in Javascript. You can declare a
> function to execute when you close a window, and in Internet Explorer,
> this works fine. But in Netscape, when the window closes, it
> immediately stops the execution of the function! You aren't guaranteed
> that even the first line of your function will execute under Netscape,
> which means that you can never use the feature.
Yep, you have to use netscape to debug. Otherwise you'll end up with
stuff that works in IE, but not Netscape. If you use Netscape to debug,
you'll probably be ok with both.
Netscape is just not up to it anymore. Go with IE5.0+ and save yourself
and your users a lot of trouble.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: 3 Dec 2000 07:19:47 GMT
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 01:40:07 -0500, jtnews wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>WITH Windows. The cheapest model uses a Soundblaster sound chip and
>Intel AGP
>graphics. There's no problem with Linux compatibility there.
There was a problem with the graphics chips when it first came out. I
had a friend who got one and I had to help him replace the video card.
And the memory wasn't correctly detected OOTB either. Even now, it
doesn't work OOTB, you have to download drivers.
The point is that sometimes the Dimension-L product line works with
Linux, sometimes it doesn't. Some time in the near future, they could
change the hardware in that model to something that doesn't work with
Linux. It's not really feasible for them to alternate between offering
and not offering Linux on a certain model every time they change the
configurations used in that model.
On the midrange product lines, they can consistently offer Linux, because
the hardware options for these models always include standard hardware
from reputable Linux-friendly manufacturers.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 02:20:12 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Don't believe the hype
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Gnome leaks and locks up frequently, machines reboot and run out of
> memory.
I've been running RedHat 6.2 with Helix GNOME
and it's been working great.
However, I'm still frustrated by netscape 4.76 as a web browser.
But it's still good as an email reader and news reader.
Sometimes the netscape 4.76 newsreader crashes if you have a large
number of messages that download but I find that to be very rare.
The latest nightly build of Mozilla is pretty good for Web browsing, it
even can run some java applets now and secure connections seem to work
well.
However, the news reader in Mozilla sometimes crashes if you try to
subscribe to newsgroup.
I use Linux mostly because I like the desktop environment and the
programming
environment + emacs. I do all my programming in java now rather than
C++ or C. The underlying kernel is very stable. Even if the GUI
crashes I can just exit the window manager and log back in and my
background jobs don't have to die. Since my background jobs run for
several
hours at a time, this is very important.
I also like the fact that everything is open source, and if there is a
problem
I need to fix, I can go ahead and do it myself by changing the source
code.
Another advantage of Linux is all the neat networking tools you get for
nothing like a DNS server. This past weekend I setup my own DNS server
to replace Verizon's broken DNS server. I was thrilled when I got it to
work. I thought it would be hard to do and it wasn't.
The last advantage of Linux is that everything is a lot more open.
There are plenty of howto's and people on IRC chat 24 hours a day who
are willing to help.
For people who like to tinker like me, there really couldn't be a more
ideal environment than Linux.
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------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: 3 Dec 2000 07:22:42 GMT
On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 01:40:07 -0500, jtnews wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>A brand new version of Windows ME costs in excess of $100 at retail.
It costs the OEM $50-.
>Unfortunately, a little tiny hardware shop can't compete with Dell when
>Dell
>gets huge volume discounts.
Last I checked, aslab offer better prices than Dell. IMO, you are at
fault for being too narrow-minded to support Linux-friendly vendors.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 02:27:44 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Hey! I've got an idea, can I buy Dell's cheapest Dimension models,
then wipe their hard drives, return the software to Microsoft, get the
refund, and resell the systems at a cheaper price and make money that
way?
I can tinker with RedHat linux until it works with the system and then
ship the modified RedHat with the newly transformed Dell! The only
problem I see is that I would effectively have to ship each system twice
to get it sold. Once from Dell to me and once from me to the customer.
With shipping costs, I might not be able to make any money. Is there
anyway around this problem?
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 01:40:07 -0500, jtnews wrote:
> >Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> >WITH Windows. The cheapest model uses a Soundblaster sound chip and
> >Intel AGP
> >graphics. There's no problem with Linux compatibility there.
>
> There was a problem with the graphics chips when it first came out. I
> had a friend who got one and I had to help him replace the video card.
> And the memory wasn't correctly detected OOTB either. Even now, it
> doesn't work OOTB, you have to download drivers.
>
> The point is that sometimes the Dimension-L product line works with
> Linux, sometimes it doesn't. Some time in the near future, they could
> change the hardware in that model to something that doesn't work with
> Linux. It's not really feasible for them to alternate between offering
> and not offering Linux on a certain model every time they change the
> configurations used in that model.
>
> On the midrange product lines, they can consistently offer Linux, because
> the hardware options for these models always include standard hardware
> from reputable Linux-friendly manufacturers.
>
> --
> Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
> elflord at panix dot com
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 02:34:44 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> Last I checked, aslab offer better prices than Dell. IMO, you are at
> fault for being too narrow-minded to support Linux-friendly vendors.
But I need a support contract so I'm not stuck with a system that
doesn't work. True I could fix it myself, but if I can get someone else
to do
the work for a minimal incremental cost, I'd rather go that route.
Dell has pretty good support. Plus, I know Dell will be around for a
while.
With the small-time companies, you don't really know what their balance
sheets look like, so I'm afraid to do business with them. They may not
be around tommorrow.
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------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 07:38:05 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 19:30:30 -0500, jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> >But I believe you should only pay for what is necessary.
>
> I agree, but all I am saying is that last time I looked, it was a
> better deal (hardware+software wise) to buy a Windows machine and then
> run Linux on it.
>
>
> >Clearly bundling things like Microsoft Works or Microsoft Office
> >along with Windows ME, forces users to buy software they do not
> >want. All I want is a Dell Dimension with a service contract that comes
> >with
> >a diagnostics diskette that's certified to run Linux without any other
> >software.
>
> They have Dimension models that run Linux.
Their OptiPlex GX1 runs it beautifully.
--
Tom Wilson
A Computer Programmer who wishes he'd chosen another vocation.
------------------------------
From: "Vann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 07:43:58 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Donovan Rebbechi) wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 19:30:30 -0500, jtnews wrote:
>>But I believe you should only pay for what is necessary. Clearly
>>bundling things like Microsoft Works or Microsoft Office along with
>>Windows ME, forces users to buy software they do not want. All I want
>>is a Dell Dimension with a service contract that comes with a
>>diagnostics diskette that's certified to run Linux without any other
>>software.
>
> You can have a dimension with Linux.
>
> Dell's diagnostic software doesn't require any operating system to be
> installed last I checked -- you boot from the disk.
>
> I don't understand what your complaint is.
>
I believe jtnews wants to get a computer without Windows ME, and all the
other MS software. He could then pay less, since he isn't actually
purchasing the licenses. Basically, he only wants what he needs, nothing
more, nothing less.
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OS tree - SOUND OFF!
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 07:49:19 GMT
"Charlie Ebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> I thought it would be interesting reading and
> refreshing to see your PC history's revealed here.
>
> So from the time you first got any kind of PC forward,
> SOUND OFF.
>
I started with the Radio Shack TRS80 model 1 (the first
computer I could afford) and got involved in Z80 programming.
Then had a MAX80 (a model 3 clone made by Lobo). Then
started with Xenix and Unix before IBM clones were really
usable. The next computer I owned was an AT&T 3B1 (a 68010
SysVr2 in a cute 1 piece box with a phone built in). I also
used some of these at work for a while along with 3B2's (briefcase
sized SysVr3 muli-user boxes with no built in console). PC's
were starting to come around by then and were networked as
clients to the unix servers. Later, 486 based servers running
SysVr4 took over most of the file serving. I was impressed by the
fact that nearly all the code I had written, even starting from
Xenix, recompiled and worked the same across the various CPU
types. Likewise, everything moved to Linux a few years later.
Shell scripts and perl code just copied over and ran, taking at
most a few changes in locations of files, and a recompile for
the C code. Linux even provided source level emulation of the
sysV style termio.h definitions that deal with serial ports, although
eventually I changed most of it to use posix termios.h instead in
order to work on the *bsd's too.
>
> RedHat has a large collection of software but the
> dependency problems and the broken parts of the
> distribution eventually just DROVE me away from
> RedHat.
I prefer the slightly modified VALinux version for servers.
You can find it at ftp://ftp.valinux.com/pub/software/VALinux/
Somewhere in each version there is a list of what they modified
from the stock RH. I started using this to get a working NFS
server, but haven't seen any reason to change.
> Slackware. No upgradability. Hardest to set up.
> Slackware was just an erector set for me. But
> it had the best documentation in their book of
> any of them.
I started with Slackware before RedHat was around but
it was too hard to keep updated.
> Mandrake. Here's a REDHAT improvement OS.
> Very nice. I like it probably the best of
> the RPM distro's. But it is RPM based and
> suffers from the same disease that Redhat
> has of poor dependency checking.
> You take a RedHat RPM and put it on here and
> it's the same story with Suse all over again.
> While they say they are RedHat compatible
> they really aren't.
I like Mandrake for desktop boxes, and have not
had much trouble exchanging RPM's with the
RH or VALinux boxes either direction. If there
is a problem, grabbing the src rpm and doing a
--rebuild has always worked.
> Redhat is our chevy while Suse and Mandrake
> are agruably the pontiac and buick of the line
> up.
So VA must be the Jimmy (GM truck).
> FreeBSD. These people know how to write
> an excellent unix system. FreeBSD is the
> FASTEST UNIX system in the world for PC's.
> FreeBSD is just a bolt of lightning.
I work with some of these that someone else
set up and can't really see any difference in
capabilities. Both should drive the hardware
to its limits.
> Problems I had with FreeBSD was the entire
> desktop they had was borrowed from Linux
> and about 80% of it actually worked because
> of this.
Mine is just remembering the arbitrary differences.
> After having searched for what I would consider the
> BEST OS for MY NEEDS, I stuck with Debian.
I looked at debian before it was ready for prime
time and never went back. The early problems
might be fixed now.
> Debian stable is absolutely bullet proof.
As is VALinux. It has always seemed to
me like there is a huge gap between Debian
stable and current versions of things. I
don't like living on the edge, but I don't
want to be more than 6 months behind either.
> Deb based distro's have solved the cross
> pollination problems also. If you want
> to run Helix Gnome, you can point your
> APT-GET to their ftp site and install
> it sucessfully. All the Deb based
> distro's are engineered to work with
> base Debian!
I see APT has been modified to accomodate
RPM based distribution. Maybe this will
soon work for all of us.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Vann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OS Sound OFF.
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 07:49:26 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Charlie Ebert) wrote:
>
> Everybody who reads this, sound off with your OS please. The one your
> using or like the most.
>
> Then the others you use follow.
>
> Using Debian 2.3 Woody
>
> Others None.
>
> Thanks
>
> Charlie
I use my own linux distro. It doesn't have a name, but I downloaded all
the basic software, compiled it, and wrote my own init scripts, etc. A
good waste of a week, I suppose.
At school I use Windows2000, although I'd have a much easier time doing
what I do ( programming ) on linux. For that, and only that, I don't
particularly want/need a GUI. Not that it is a bad OS or anything, I'd
just rather devote the resources to compiling than rendering menus, etc.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 03:06:06 -0500
Charlie Ebert wrote:
>
> In article <aMcW5.5420$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Pete Goodwin wrote:
> >Charlie Ebert wrote:
> >
> >> MF is of course the british company Micro Focus.
> >> I thought you would at least know that.
> >
> >Why would I know that Charlie? I've never heard Micro Focus referred to as
> >MF.
> >
> >So, Charlie, what's your answer? Why are you still using software to which
> >MF have no answer? Why aren't you suing them? Why aren't you changing to
> >something better?
> >
>
> No we are not sueing MF.
> MF is the only company in the world which provides a compiler
> adequate for replacing our mainframes Cobol compiler.
>
> MF say's the problem is with Windows but they don't
> know why.
>
> >You're in this group whining about Windows 2000 but what are you _doing_
> >about it?
> >
> >--
> >Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
> >
>
> There's nothing you can do about it.
> They don't have Net Express for Unix.
>
> They stupidly decided they were not going to support
> an equivalent product for unix.
>
> So there's another fucked company on planet earth.
>
> What can I say.
You can say to them, "In light of your decision not to support
Linux, we will be starting a search for a replacement product that
IS on linux, to be adopted 1st Quarter, 2002.
That should grab the attention of the sales department...
it CHALLENGES them to come up with a way to save the sales,
and gives them adequate time to demonstrate a reasonable effort
to meet your specifications.
In the mean time....do EXACTLY as what you have told them.
>
> Charlie
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 03:08:32 -0500
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:55:07 -0500, jtnews wrote:
>
> >but, the trouble is every single one of those machines are the more
> >expensive
> >models. Look at their cheapest Dell Dimension series, all Windows, with
> >no
> >option to buy them without Windows, at an even cheaper price.
>
> The Dimension is available with Linux.
>
> You can't get the ultra-cheap models because the ultra-cheap
> machines tend to use crap onboard components that aren't Linux
> compatible.
>
This will change. As the Linux market grows, the ultra-cheap
board makers will start making Linux-friendly ultra-cheaps.
Or maybe really cheaps ($5 to $10 more than ultra-cheaps)
> --
> Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
> elflord at panix dot com
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
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