Linux-Advocacy Digest #624, Volume #30 Sun, 3 Dec 00 08:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: C++ -- Our Industry... (jtnews)
Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's? (jtnews)
Re: Red Hat drops Sparc support with new Linux version (Tim Smith)
Re: Red Hat drops Sparc support with new Linux version (Tim Smith)
Re: OS Sound OFF. (Stefan Ohlsson)
[OT] Gore & Bush (Stefan Ohlsson)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Bruce Ediger)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 13:53:15 +0200
"Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > "Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Ayende Rahien wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
message
> > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > Ayende Rahien wrote:
> > > > > [...]
> > > > > > Now I've found it.
> > > > > > Do you consider unix/linux to be a good OS?
> > > > > > Do you consider Netscape 6 to be a good browser?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Apperantly, it suffers from exactly the same problem.
> > > > > > Netscape 6 require /usr/local/netscape to have read/write to
*all*
> > > > users.
> > > > > > Since it stores *user spesifics* settings in there, instead of
> > storing
> > > > them
> > > > > > in /home/<user>/netsacpe
> > > > >
> > > > > Not exactly the same case. It's just a suggested default
> > > > > path (unwise suggestion, I agree). I didn't like it, and I
> > > > > installed to /home/<user>/netscape. Didn't need to get an
> > > > > updated version, just entered the right path in place of the
> > > > > default. However I'm not sure it was necessary, because user
> > > > > specific data are kept in a .mozilla folder on my user home
> > > > > directory.
> > > >
> > > > T. Max & I have been arguing about the HKLM & HKCU in the registry.
> > > > I complained that too many programmers don't adher to MS
recommendations
> > > > about programming, and store user spesific data in the HKLM key in
the
> > > > registry.
> > >
> > > Yes I've been following the thread. What I wanted to point out is that
> > > the choice of Netscape is undeniably bad, but it may be easily
overcome,
> > > on Linux, because we're not dealing with a "closed" registry system as
> > > in Windows.
> >
> > closed registry system?
> >
> I mean that in *nix you only have a filesystem, with some conventional
> setting which are intended to provide security. An user or a sysadmin
> has easy means to increase or decrease security for a single application
> or for a full range of them. Therefore it's possible to run in a safe
> mode an application whose programmers screwed up security because of
> error/stupidity reasons.
> On Windows you don't have such a possibility: the registry has been
> designed on a fixed way, you can't move an entry from HKLM to HKCU in a
> way transparent to the application, so either the security scheme
> designed by MS or selected by the applications suits you, or you're
> screwed up.
You can move nodes around, using registry exports & some minor text editing.
The problem is that you've to define to the application where to look for
it, which is impossible unless the programmer gave you a way to do so, or
you've the code.
Also, you can fine-grain the security of every node & key in the registry.
That is how I got my dailer to work.
I just don't like it when I have to do extra work because lazy programming.
> > > >
> > > > BTW, my testing of netscape 6 aren't unusual, so it seems.
> > > > http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-11/lw-11-netscape6.html
> > >
> > > I agree with Linuxworld critics. I too have been unable to use the
> > > authomatic download install program, and I have been forced to
download
> > > via FTP. Then to have the install script to work, I changed on some
.ini
> > > file the URL to point to ftp://localhost/pub/.... and I faked a
download
> > > from my very local machine. Not really the easy way!
> > > The only point in favor of Netscape6 (Linux version) I've found so far
> > > is that it withstands the crashme test without crashing.
> >
> > Where can I test the windows version?
>
> Easy. You make sure not to have unsaved work around, then, with
> JavaScript enabled, you just follow this link:
>
> http://www.crashme.com/
>
> It will give a 1 minute countdown and then it will flood your browser
> with random stuff. With it Netscape 4.75 crashes immediately, with
> Netscape 6, after I had 36 open windows I got tired, went to a CLI
> console and terminated it. If you test also with IE and Opera, I'd be
> curious to know the results.
> I discovered this site just because of the crashme tests referenced in
> this NG. I performed a search for crashme, and, among other stuff, I
> found that.
I'll go and test that now.
Didn't do anything, I forgot that I disabled scripting.
Let's restore scripting and see what happens.
How shameful for me.
I readied the task manager so I could close it upon request, but I set it to
follow CPU, instead of naming, so it sleep from my mouse. And I closed
tskmgr.exe instead :)
I let it run for a about a minute or two, I got to the point where the
entire task bar (in 1280X1024, with only quick launch with 4 icons & system
tray holding time and 7 icons) was covered completely with IE icons and they
were several lines deep (could really use whistler's grouping feature here.)
I didn't bother to count, but it was 40 or 50 windows at least, before I
CTRL+ALT+DELETE & fired task managar from there, and terminated IE from
there.
Overall, it wasn't nice while is lasted, but nothing remained as memory's
footprint or instability to show that it happened once IE terminated.
For some reason, the memory footprint was only 20+MB I expected it to be
much higher.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 11:45:06 GMT
Tom Wilson writes:
>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
> You'd be surprised....
> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
We're talking about intuition, not incompetence.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 11:48:38 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>> You'd be surprised....
>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
> The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
You mean you need to consult a manual to learn how to turn a computer
on???
> Proof: put a primative tribesman in a room with electric appliances
> and tell him to start the things into operation.
How does that represent proof for your claim? Intuition comes from
experience. If you don't have the experience, then you need to consult
a manual. You're hypothesizing a situation in which there is no
experience.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 11:55:09 GMT
Tom Wilson writes:
> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>> I wrote:
>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>> You'd be surprised....
>>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>> The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>>
>> Proof: put a primative tribesman in a room with electric appliances
>> and tell him to start the things into operation.
> I'm in agreement.
You shouldn't be. His example doesn't represent proof for a power
switch not being intuitive.
> The language I used, in hindsight, was wrong.
That doesn't justify your agreement.
> Read: Never underestimate the ignorance factor.
>
> I used "idiot" because i'ts been one of those nights...
Go to the store. Buy a lamp. Take it home. Do you consult a manual
to find out what to do with the cord? I hope not. Yet the hypothesized
"primative tribesman" could have no idea what the cord is for. Does that
prove that the power cord is not intuitive?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 07:19:41 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: C++ -- Our Industry...
C++? Why bother? Use Java!
I switched all my development from C++ to Java and the results have
been fantastic! Ever since JDK 1.3 came out, performance is no longer
an issue and I can crank out applications faster than ever!
You should try out Java, you'll never want to go back to C++ again!
:-)
Charlie Ebert wrote:
>
> After having been thru the C++ thread I started, I got
> real mad!!!
>
> I wasn't mad at anybody I debated with. It caused me to
> think about the entire development process here...
>
> It happened when I started viewing job ad's from other
> towns. In my area, Cobol and the mainframe are predominate
> with a smattering of VB jobs and web jobs here and there.
>
> If you take a look at east and west coast newpapers
> you find more C++ jobs there. I'd have to say they
> are about tied with VB and Cobol in quantity of ad's.
>
> What made me really mad wasn't that other area's had
> the C++ jobs. It was the bullshit which was being
> spouted off here in my local area by local developers!
>
> We're modern, join us doing VB! VB is bullshit!
> You might have a debate about the usefullness of C++
> but VB is definitely bullshit!
>
> The VB developers claim to be industry models for
> contemporary software development. The future is
> VB! This is their rallying cry.
>
> So some dumbass company comes up with a few VB apps
> to run on the internet and all of a sudden they've
> become industry leaders!
>
> That just makes me sick. Doesn't it you?
>
> The point is how can you be an industry LEADER if
> your just another class clown FOLLOWER! Every company
> of small size is doing some VB development.
>
> And VB sucks. It's not even a language. It will
> never be forced to meet some standards committee.
> There are no standards for VB as it's a Microsoft
> ONLY show!
>
> I pity the dumb bastard who writes VB. I really do.
> They don't know what being an industry leader is
> all about! You don't be an industry leader by
> following Microsoft around. Since when does following
> Microsoft around like a lost puppy dog qualify you
> as being an industry leader????
>
> The term "INDUSTRY LEADER" is just as interesting
> as the term "SOFTWARE ENGINEER". But it's much
> more vague and meaningless when they use it in
> conjunction with the words "VISUAL BASIC".
>
> I can respect a person who codes in C or C++ or
> even the many COBOL's out there. I can respect
> a person who writes in JAVA. I can respect a
> person who writes in ADA. I think these people,
> not inclusive, are our "INDUSTRY LEADERS".
>
> I have NEVER FELT that the title of "INDUSTRY LEADER"
> should go to any company with any product being
> produced by Visual Basic because there are
> 10's of thousands of them all doing the same thing.
>
> Where is the leadership of the industry in pushing
> a set of tools 10,000 other companies have around
> a palet and writing a little sloppy code behind them.
>
> It's almost hideous to consider that VB is currently
> the #1 choice development tool for Windows users.
>
> Saying that using "Visual Basic" at your company makes
> US an "INDUSTRY LEADER" is very much akin to saying,
> "I'M A LEADER IN THE FIGHT FOR THE ENVIRONMENT" for using
> recycled toilet paper to whipe!!!! Point being, "VISUAL
> BASIC" is as much of a computer language in reality as
> "recycled toilet paper" exists on store shelves.
>
> It's functionally as funny as reading all those ad's from
> the early 90's where people were trying to hire FOX PRO
> PROGRAMMERS. I actually did a job for an attorney firm
> who was using FOX PRO during those days. One of the
> attorney's was a neighbor of ours and I asked him
> after he did the job, why didn't you just run an ad
> looking for somebody who might know something about
> FOX PRO instead of demanding they have FOX PRO experience!
> The answer was they only wanted somebody with FOX PRO experience.
> Then I asked him, why did you want me to come over and help you?
> I fixed your problem and I don't have any FOX PRO experience!
> The answer was, I knew you worked on mainframes and I trusted
> you to try and fix it and you did. Then I asked again,
> why did you run an AD looking for people with FOX PRO experience?
> Were you expecting a large number of people from the area to
> come forth with their experience and fill this job?
> I never got a good answer from the guy, Attorney's are great
> at not answering questions.
>
> Microsoft has it's own little world of shit out there.
> It's a shame that idiots nationwide are spending
> millions of the shareholders money chasing loonacy.
>
> Bottom line! If the area of software expertise you
> are investigating is not supported across multiple
> platforms, then quit investigating it. You've hit
> a NON-ARTFORM!
>
> Everybody looks at Microsoft as if they were FORD motor
> company! Well, last year I had a pinto and now I'm
> going for that big diesel duelie over there!
>
> NO! You can't just start up your own high tech
> company just because you bought a bunch of Microsoft
> shit! Sorry! It don't work that way!
>
> I'll say something else which might make you mad
> but it would be true. The typical WEB "engineer" you
> get out of your local ISP with limited VB experience
> is not your PRIME CANDIDATE to be project lead on
> your next greatest adventure. Yet this is happening
> EVERYWHERE.
>
> In my company, we just cancelled a 6 million dollar project
> and set the company back several years as the VB development
> crew they hired didn't develop software for a living.
> 3 years and 6 million down the drain. The customer complaints
> were so severe they had little choice.
>
> This was MY company! The company I work for!
>
> This is what is wrong with Microsoft! They give
> you the DREAM and leave it up to you to see if you
> can finish it. It's just not he same structured
> philosophy we had comming from mainframe land.
>
> What I'm trying to say here is if your reading this
> and your thinking of starting up a Microsoft shop
> with VB being your core enterprise tool, then THINK AGAIN!
> Who are you going to hire to man the guns colonel!
>
> Funny how they require 6 years of COBOL experience before
> you can even be CONSIDERED for a job in my company YET,
> if you know VB your word is just great with them.
>
> THIS IS WHAT IS FUCKING WRONG PEOPLE!
> DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING HERE!
>
> IT'S FUCKING WRONG PEOPLE!
>
> Charlie
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 07:27:59 -0500
From: jtnews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: how come Dell makes you buy Windows with all their PC's?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> No, you said "How come Dell bundles Windows with every PC?"
>
> Answer. They don't. You are wrong.
You're correct, the title should read,
"How come Dell bundles Windows with all their *cheap* PC's?"
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Smith)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red Hat drops Sparc support with new Linux version
Date: 3 Dec 2000 04:25:20 -0800
Reply-To: Tim Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Besides, if I wanted to run Linux on Sparc, I still can (6.2), and just
>> do my own upgrades to the kernel et al along the way.
>
>Do your own upgrades? Give me a break.
Why not? That's what most of us do on our servers, I suspect. For
non-kernel stuff, here's how you upgrade a RedHat system:
1. download the new package.
2. Type "rpm -Uhv foo", where foo is the package you just
downloaded.
That's if you can find a binary of the foo package. If not, you
download the source RPM, and then it is a couple more commands to build
from that and install the newly built binaries.
For the kernel, you don't update that as often, because changing kernels
requires bringing down the server. Still, it's not hard, and I suspect
that most people running Linux servers also run Linux workstations,
where they do update the kernels themselves often, so they already know
how.
In fact, the ease of upgrading is one of the things that makes it harder
for companies like RedHat to make money. I've got 6.1 on my computers.
I have no need for 7.x, because I've updated the things I use. All 7.x
would give me is convenience if I needed to install from scratch on a
new computer.
--Tim Smith
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Smith)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Red Hat drops Sparc support with new Linux version
Date: 3 Dec 2000 04:34:07 -0800
Reply-To: Tim Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Chad C. Mulligan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Few apps existed because Microsoft did not update development tools.
>>
>
>What about third party tools?
Serious development on Windows in the general case is basically not
possible without using the Microsoft tools. Microsoft fairly frequently
updates MFC, and releases SDKs for new things, and stuff like that, and
these often require significant diddling to get them to work with
non-Microsoft tools. By the time your tool vendor has an update that is
working with the latest Microsoft stuff, (1) your competitors using the
Microsoft tools already have products out with the new stuff, and (2)
the "latest" stuff is no longer "latest".
--Tim Smith
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stefan Ohlsson)
Subject: Re: OS Sound OFF.
Date: 3 Dec 2000 13:45:12 +0100
Charlie Ebert wrote:
>Everybody who reads this, sound off with your OS please.
>The one your using or like the most.
>
At home: AmigaOS3.5 (Am I going to be flamed now?)
At work: Debian2.2 (potato)
Windows98 for Photoshop and scanning
/Stefan
--
[ Stefan Ohlsson ] · There will always be survivors - Robert A. Heinlein · []
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stefan Ohlsson)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: [OT] Gore & Bush
Date: 3 Dec 2000 13:54:46 +0100
Bob Hauck wrote:
>On Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:38:26 -0500, Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>well to be honest the legal system never thought we would have such a
>>crybaby loser like we have with Gore so b/c of him we are having a 30
>>day election instead of a 1 day election with some votes counted 5 times
>>and the other 95% counted once.
>Gore did win the popular vote nationally, so your man Bush was really
>the minority choice. If the tables were turned, would you be telling
>Bush to concede or would you be insisting that he's only taking
>advantage of the options available and saying that the electoral
>college system needs to be thrown out?
>
I'm sorry to budge in, but I just want to say what I think of this
and that is that it is just sad.
Gore is afraid to lose if a recount isn't made
Bush is afraid to lose if a recount _is_ made.
Why couldn't they just have done the recount and then accept the
result of it? Instead they act like children in a sandbox trying to get
votes included and excluded, recounts made and disallowed.
Oh well...
/Stefan
--
[ Stefan Ohlsson ] · There will always be survivors - Robert A. Heinlein · []
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bruce Ediger)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: 3 Dec 2000 05:58:32 -0700
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>
>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>
>Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>anything without having had a tutorial, won't get very far because
>of that "every letter key is a command" approach. Most people
http://www.asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html
Jeff Raskin, "Intuitive Equals Familiar", Communications of the ACM,
vol 37, no 9, Sept, 1994, pg 17.
--
Once, galactic empires might have seemed a Post-Human domain.
Now, sadly, even interplanetary ones are.
------------------------------
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