Linux-Advocacy Digest #667, Volume #30 Tue, 5 Dec 00 14:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: OS Installation Help? (Craig Kelley)
Re: Linux is awful (WorLord)
Re: Linux is awful ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux is awful ("scatterman")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux is awful ("Tom Wilson")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: OS Installation Help?
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 05 Dec 2000 11:54:39 -0700
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I'm expecting to get a new hard drive in the next few weeks :) Let's
> say it's an 80 gig drive.
>
> I would like to have the following OS's installed on it. Linux
> (Corel), Windows Me (i know but i love games), and Windows 2000 (java
> and oracle development).
>
> How should i proceed? I would like to have 20 gig set aside for Linux,
> 40 gig for Me and 20 gig for Win 2000.
1) Install Windows Me first
2) Install Windows 2000 next
3) Install Linux last (and DO NOT USE Corel Linux unless you know what
you're getting into -- try the *latest* Mandrake for any
easy-to-use distribution)
> I don't know anything about how to install multiple os's because the
> whole partitioning thing is confusing to me.
>
> I'm sure this has been asked a million times and i apologize. If you
> can point me to some FAQ's, that would be great.
You can pretty much follow the instructions you get with any Linux
distribution, they all cover this in detail.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: WorLord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:55:23 -0800
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Taken from the obscure and questionable writings of "Erik Funkenbusch"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> :
>> A simple switch added to lilo.conf does it.
>Perhaps on some distros, but no longer on Mandrake 7.2,
This is misinformation. MD adds the switch, just to rc.local instead
of lilo.conf. However, I've not had to add it myself, MD does it for
you.
>Hmm.. I haven't found this utility yet. It's certainly not available from
>any menus or in the DrakConf.
That's wrong. 100% wrong.
Unless you chose not to install it, DrakFont is in DrakConf.
>As opposed to click a drop down box in a GUI?
Mandrake uses DrakX to configure resolution, color depth, and Montior
Refresh. It then asks you to test the configuration, to make sure it
works before you switch to it.
Easier and more presise then Windows, IMO, and all *done in a GUI*.
I'm noticing a trend, here, about you being completely ignorant of the
GUI methods of doing things in MD and then subsequently claiming that
such things imply don't *have* a GUI method. I'm here to tell you
that they exist, and you simply are not aware of any of them. Go to
Mandrake's site, and watch all the tutorial movies... they are well
done, and go through just about everything you're asking.
>You honestly think messing
>with config files is simple for someone that doesn't know how to set their
>VCR?
I'd argue that a person who can't set their VCR has no business on a
computer, but that is simply my conjecture.
>The subject was Aaron claiming
>that Linux is only more difficult on things that you can't do in Windows.
>That's patently not true.
Yes, it is, and simply because you aren't aware of the "easy way", via
GUI, doesn't mean that easier way doesn't exist.
--WorLord
"You could spend an hour counting the petals in a flower
It might take you a year to count the veins in each petal
If you spent ten lifetimes, maybe you could count its cells...
...but you'd have completely missed the point
You fuckhead."
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:59:18 -0600
"WorLord" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >Or how about turning on ultra DMA?
>
> Done for you on install.
Not in Mandrake 7.2 it's not.
> >What about installing TrueType Fonts?
>
> Done in a colorful dialog box; all it asks for is the location of your
> true type font collection, and FontDrake does the rest.
FontDrake (or rather drakfont) doesn't exist on my 7.2 install. I do see
conf files, but a locate doesn't find it.
I did find it in the RPM's on the CD though.
> >How about setting your monitor refresh rate?
>
> Dialog box, complete with testing before accepting an unknown/untested
> rate.
If it works for you. It doesn't for me.
> Next time you list a few things "off the top of your head," you may
> want to make sure that you know what you're talking about - currently,
> you don't.
You cannot give me an "idiot simple" way of doing these things that work on
every distribution. Some distros give you better tools than others for some
things, but then are lacking in others.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:26:00 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>> Tom Wilson writes:
>>>>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tom Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Donovan Rebbechi writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The movement keys are placed sensibly in vi (hjkl),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is not intuitive. First-time vi users, if they try to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>>>>>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>>>>>>>>> You'd be surprised....
>>>>>>>>>> Never underestimate the idiot factor.
>>>>>>>>> The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Proof: put a primative tribesman in a room with electric appliances
>>>>>>>>> and tell him to start the things into operation.
>>>>>>>> I'm in agreement.
>>>>>>> You shouldn't be. His example doesn't represent proof for a power
>>>>>>> switch not being intuitive.
>>>>>> I'm agreeing that my choice of "idiot" was wrong.
>>>>> But Aaron didn't say that your choice of "idiot" was wrong.
>>>> He did that very thing by intimating the situation to be a question of
>>>> intuitiveness as opposed to stupidity.
>>> He didn't even intimate that situation. He simply repeated his claim
>>> that the power switch is not intuitive, and then tried to offer some
>>> proof for that claim.
>> Well then, offer a valid and credible argument to the contrary and can the
>> foolishness.
>>>>>> The hypothesis, strange as it is, points it out. It's a matter of
>>>>>> experience and environment, not intellect.
>>>>> "Experience" is the word I used for it. Someone else chose
>>>>> "familiarity".
>>>>>> I used the word idiot because I had been trouble-shooting over
>>>>>> the phone to complete morons that evening and had a dim view of
>>>>>> humanity as a result.
>>>>> Someone who couldn't find the "any" key on the keyboard?
>>>> Worse. This was an professional moron.
>>>>
>>>> An old Novell customer who consistantly forgets his Administrator
>>>> password. He's STILL running Novell 3.12 which is good, in a way,
>>>> because you can hack into console debug mode and trick it into
>>>> believing all system passwords have time-expired. That way he can
>>>> log on as Administrator and get prompted for a new one.
>>>>
>>>> Ever tried to talk someone, who constantly interrupts and thinks he
>>>> knows everything, through hacking Novell from the debug console?
>>> No; I don't know anyone who hacks through Novell debug consoles.
>> It's a not-so-common trick used to remedy the above situation and it only
>> works for 3.12. I'm certainly not the only one who knows about it. For
>> years, Novell denied it was possible, though, since it was admitting to a
>> major security loophole. They closed it in the later versions.
>>>> I would have done it myself, but, he lives 600 miles away.
>>> Behind a firewall?
>> You have to have physical access to the server's console to do this. Its' a
>> security loophole, not a gaping chasm. Besides, you just can't assume that
>> all businesses are online. This one is a smallish construction company and
>> has no need to be.
>>>>>>>> The language I used, in hindsight, was wrong.
>>>>>>> That doesn't justify your agreement.
>>>>>> How do you figure? I was agreeing that my wording was off track and
>>>>>> Aaron's post had pointed that out.
>>>>> Aaron's post wasn't pointing to your wording. He was simply repeating
>>>>> his claim that the power switch was not intuitive.
>>>> He was pointing to my wording's intent - That it was a question of
>>>> intellegence.
>>> Where did he do that?
>> You really aren't this dense are you?
>>> AK] The power switch is NOT "intuitive"
>>>>>>>> Read: Never underestimate the ignorance factor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used "idiot" because i'ts been one of those nights...
>>>>>>> Go to the store. Buy a lamp. Take it home. Do you consult a manual
>>>>>>> to find out what to do with the cord? I hope not. Yet the
>>>>>>> hypothesized "primative tribesman" could have no idea what the cord
>>>>>>> is for. Does that prove that the power cord is not intuitive?
>>>>>> Oh for God's sake!
>>>>> Which presupposes the existence of God.
>>>> Yep, you're anal....
>>> An illogical conclusion.
>> No, an obvoius one.
>>>>>> His hypothesis was extreme, yes. However, it makes a valid point
>>>>>> regarding experience.
>>>>> On the contrary, it ignores the essential element of intuitive design,
>>>>> which involves experience with similar items. If someone states
>>>>> something about trees, you don't go to a desert and then proclaim the
>>>>> statement about trees to be wrong.
>>>> You watched a lot of Kung Fu as a kid, didn't you?
>>> No.
>>>> You sound like a fortune cookie.
>>> On what basis do you make that ridiculous claim?
>> Your "If a tree falls in the woods..." psuedo-intellectual arguments. You
>> sound ridiculous. You come across as an unemployed philosophy major.
> You left out the word "permanently" ----+
Where, allegedly?
>>>>>> You're bordering on anal retention, i'm afraid.
>>>>> How ironic.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:28:41 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>> Steve Mading writes:
>>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>>>>> I wrote:
>>>>>> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>>>>>>> Big fucking deal. NOTHING about computers is "intuitive"
>>>>>> Incorrect; consider the power switch.
>>>>> Only to those with previous experience with power switches.
>>>>>
>>>>> Put a computer in front of a person from a remote village which
>>>>> has no electrical service, and let's see how "intuitive" the
>>>>> power switch is.
>>>> OK, now you are getting silly. Give those villagers electricity, and
>>>> all the usual electrical applicances other than computers, and let them
>>>> become comfortable with them, THEN give them a computer. The power switch
>>>> on the computer will be intuitive to them.
>>> This demonstrates the point, actually. It's "intuative" only
>>> because it's similar to what was already learned.
>> Why do you say "only"? It's quite sufficient to justify use of the
>> term "intuitive".
>>> At some point, it *did* have to be learned because it was not
>>> intuative *yet*.
>> The whole point of designing something that is intuitive is to
>> avoid the need to "come up the learning curve". That is, you
>> intentionally try to use something familiar, something that has
>> already been learned, so that you don't have to learn something
>> new. One of the impediments to the adoption of new things is
>> the "can't teach an old dog new tricks" syndrome.
>>> If you show someone how to use vi who *hasn't* used a different
>>> sort of editor yet, it's not as difficult to teach it to them.
>> The fact that it needs to be learned is what makes something not
>> intuitive.
>>> The difficulty comes from assuming incorrectly that it should
>>> behave exactly the same as some other company's editor.
>> However, if you've used several screen editors and they all behave
>> in such a way that the pressing of a letter key either overwrites
>> or inserts that letter into the text, then vi's "every letter is a
>> command" approach will not be intuitive.
>>> Vi is *different*, which makes it harder to learn,
>> It also makes it not intuitive.
>>> but this difference is also the source of its incredible speed at
>>> the hands of an experienced user (fingers don't lose the home-row
>>> keys - everything complex can be done without moving your right
>>> hand over to the 'special' keys, and this makes a gigantic
>>> difference in typing speed.)
>> Power is not the issue here. You'd get greater adoption of the
>> editor if there wasn't a steep learning curve. If the only way
>> you can get power is to force a steep learning curve, then the
>> authors should be prepared to accept slow adoption.
>>> There's that, and the powerful commands that only take a
>>> few keystrokes, like ">%" to indent a squiggly-brace section, or
>>> "d$" to delete to end-of-line, and so on. They are not
>>> instinctive to the new user,
>> As someone else pointed out, there is a difference betweeen
>> instinct and intuition. The discussion is about the latter.
>>> but they *are* internally consistent, so picking up new commands
>>> is intuative to someone who has the basics.
>> Not necessarily. Having learned that every letter key is a command
>> won't necessarily help you identify which letter is used for which
>> command.
>>> (d-something means delete it, and '$' means end-of line,
>> It also means end of file. Try :$ and see where it takes you.
>>> therefore 'd$' means delete to end-of-line
>> Why shouldn't someone think that it could mean delete to the end of
>> the file?
>>> - it's internally consisent,
>> End of line and end of file are not that consistent. At least they
>> both mean "end".
>>> and thus very fast to build upon your knowlege once you
>>> get over the hump of initial contact with it.)
>> If you find that some new command is intuitive after having learned
>> several other commands, then there is something about computers that
>> is intuitive, contrary to Aaron's claim.
> You don't have to specifically learn "d$" to synthesize if
> from previous knowledge.
What previous knowledge tells you the function of "d$"?
> Conversely, the use of an on/off switch canNOT be intuitive,
Incorrect, given that I have personally witnessed first-time users
knowing what to do with a power switch, even without consulting a
manual.
> as the use of such cannot be synthesized from previous knowledge.
Obviously incorrect, given that I've witnessed first-time users
knowing what to do with a power switch, even without consulting a
manual.
------------------------------
From: "scatterman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 19:00:03 GMT
Lets face facts, as far as "Home users" go Microsoft has awful support and
even less concern. Back in the days you could call and get a tech on the
line, not any more unless you want to pay extra for it. I can see their
point, millions of boxes and users with little or no knowledge, I'd think
they'd build a more stable system just because of the situation. So what do
you do, pay too much for a version of windows that is what even their lowest
end software should be, and still get no support, or fire a shoot and opt
out all together?
"JM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Tue, 5 Dec 2000 01:27:37 -0600, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> ("Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
>
> >"Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:k_ZW5.152190$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> news:vMXW5.1336$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> > That's just off the top of my head, I can list dozens of tasks that
are
> >> much
> >> > much harder under Linux than Win 2000. Which tasks are easier under
> >> Linux?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Keeping a stable box.
> >
> >Strange, I get that without any effort at all. Getting my Mandrake box
to
> >work with the tseng ET6000 card is a diffent story. It freezes the
entire
> >system for minutes at a time. Can't telnet in when it's frozen, it's not
> >accepting connections, then suddenly it comes back. There's nothing
wrong
> >with the card, since it worked fine in Mandrake 7.1, but not in 7.2.
> >
> >> Looking at the source code.
>
> >There you go. In the highly unlikely event that 99% of the general
computer
> >population needs to look at the source code, Linux wins.
>
> The source code obviously IS useful, otherwise no-one would bother
> supplying it.
>
> >> Using my machine the way I want to use my machine.
>
> >I have no problems with that either.
>
> So you use Linux too?
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:32:06 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>> Marty writes:
>>>> Invective five times does not make a logical argument, Aaron.
>>> How ironic.
>> Where is the alleged irony, Marty?
>>> DT] Still suffering from reading comprehension problems, Marty?
>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>> DT] Reading comprehension problem noted again.
>>> DT] Still suffering from memory problems, Marty?
>> Where did any of those appear in my responses to Aaron, Marty?
>>> MA] I'll give you a limit of 5 before the discussion ends.
>> Any particular reason you chose to reproduce that quotation, Marty?
>> Do you intend to apply that to this discussion? Of course, if you do,
>> I know better than to believe it.
>>
>> I'll also note that you chose not to say anything about the issue,
>> which is whether anything about a computer can be intuitive. No
>> surprise there. You'd rather play more of your "infantile game".
> Tholen...do you smell all that shit?...
You mean yours or Marty's?
> it's the inside of your rectum.
Illogical.
> I suggest removing your head from that place.
I suggest that you practice what you preach.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:31:02 GMT
Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>> Steve Mading writes:
>>>> Why are you citing evidence that destroys your argument, Aaron?
>>>> Familiarity (or experience, to use my word for it) does not have
>>>> to be universal before something can be declared "intuitive".
>>>> Here's a good rule of thumb: if you need to consult the manual,
>>>> it's not intuitive.
>>> Everyone has to "consult the manual" (or a friend, or the on-line
>>> help) at some point early in their learning process.
>> I know some first-time computer users that did not need to consult
>> the manual or a friend to know what to do with the power cord, for
>> example.
>>> Intuative means similar to what you already know, which means that
>>> once you've learned A, its easier to learn B and C if they are
>>> intuatively similar to A.
>> So if your computer's power switch is similar to the power switch on
>> your television or radio, then it could be intuitive, contrary to
>> Aaron's claim.
>>> But if you start with someone who doesn't already know A, B, and
>>> C, then they aren't intuative YET.
>> Aaron's claim doesn't include the "yet" part. That's where the
>> problem with his argument lies.
>>> Vi is only unintuative for people who already are used to using
>>> some other editor that works differently.
>> My point is that vi seems to be unique in its default "every letter
>> is a command" design approach. That uniqueness is what makes vi
>> not intuitive. I did ask whether there are any other screen editors
>> that use that design approach, besides vi clones, of course (such as
>> elVIs or steVIe), but so far nobody has mentioned any, so I have no
>> reason to change my statement about vi's uniqueness in that regard.
>>> To someone who doesn't know *any* editors, and has had no contact
>>> with them, it's no more or less intuative than anything else.
>> That's equivalent to Aaron's "primitive tribesman" argument. Just
>> because it may not be intuitive to one person does not mean it can't
>> be intuitive to someone else.
>>> Vi's only crime here is being unique.
>> Uniqueness breeds non-intuitiveness. I haven't said whether that is
>> good or bad.
> Wrong.
Where have I allegedly said that it's good or bad, Aaron?
> Within the context of vi, learning new commands is more intuitive
Previously you claimed that nothing about computers is intuitive.
Here you're contradicting that claim. Interesting.
> than discovering rather arbitrary placement of "print" in the
> "file" menu of most applications.
I haven't made any claims about the "print" feature. I did mention
the power switch, however.
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 19:02:52 GMT
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:BxaX5.2712$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:2i9X5.674$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > As usual, you are very wrong.
> > > Not only it's an option, but windows will detect the safe refresh
rates
> > for
> > > your resultion and recommend to you that you would only use those.
> >
> > And this depends on the video and monitor driver combination....
Sometimes
> > you are only given two options, optimal and adaptor default. This can be
a
> > pain in the ass if you, in my case, like to back the refresh down a few
> > notches to eek out better 3D hardware rendering performance in a game.
> > (Backing your refresh down from, say 120Hz to 60 Hz can give a noticable
> > improvement by easing the display adaptor's workload).
>
> Actually, you can install the generic monitor definitions if you like, and
> then you can set it to whatever, even if your monitor doesn't support it.
That's what I eventually had to do. I prefer NT's way of handling video in
that you can easily specify refresh rates. I wrote a small, command line
program that allows me to select whatever resolution/frequency combo I
desire. (One of those 20 minute hacks). I then tie it to a shortcut. Real
simple. Click it - play the game. Program works under 95/98, of course but
all frequency options are 0Hz (Windows way of saying default).
--
Tom Wilson
=====BEGIN GEEK CODE=====
GCS d- s++ a C UL+++ P+ L+++ E W N++ o K- w++ O- M-- V-- PS-- PE++ Y PGP-
t-- 5-- X-- R- tv-- b+++ DI++ D+ G- e++ h* r++ y++
======END GEEK CODE======
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:38:18 GMT
Tim Smith writes:
> Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
>> I wrote:
>>> You shouldn't be. His example doesn't represent proof for a power
>>> switch not being intuitive.
>> Then please provide a COGENT differing explanation.
> The problem with your example is that a similar example can be used to
> disprove the intuitiveness of pretty much everything except how to turn
> off an alarm clock.
Even that. Does a six-month-old even know what an alarm clock is for,
let alone turn it off?
That's the problem with Aaron's argument. It can be used to claim that
nothing is intuitive. You're quite right to note that intuitiveness is
not an absolute.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:36:38 GMT
Tim Smith writes:
>> My point is that vi seems to be unique in its default "every letter
>> is a command" design approach. That uniqueness is what makes vi
>> not intuitive. I did ask whether there are any other screen editors
>> that use that design approach, besides vi clones, of course (such as
>> elVIs or steVIe), but so far nobody has mentioned any, so I have no
>> reason to change my statement about vi's uniqueness in that regard.
> If you want to get pedantic, emacs is that way, also, but the command
> bound to each letter is the command to insert that letter into the text,
> so you don't notice you are running a command. :-)
Yeah, that's pretty pedantic.
> If you don't limit yourself to screen editors, then most old editors used
> that approach. E.g., teco, ed, qed. I think vi was aimed at people who
> used such editors.
The discussion should be limited to screen editors, because the issue
was cursor movement. The movement of a cursor up, down, left, right
seems to make sense only in a screen editor context. Yes, I have seen
line editors, which are just a one-dimensional version of a screen editor,
so left and right cursor movement applies in that case.
> When I edit a document with vi, my mental state is that I am using vi.
> When I edit a document using a good GUI editor, my mental state is that
> I am working on my document. That's pretty unclear...basically, with a
> good GUI editor, the document somehow seems to be the focus, whereas
> with vi, the editor is the focus. (If anyone understands what I'm
> trying to say, and can restate it more clearly and coherently, please
> jump in!)
I understand.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 18:40:27 GMT
Bill Vermillion writes:
>> Steve Mading writes:
>>> Vi's only crime here is being unique.
>> Uniqueness breeds non-intuitiveness. I haven't said whether that is
>> good or bad.
> vi was good. Having the ability to see all the lines on the screen
> instead of one line, and being able to move onto a word to delete
> it instead of .s/old-word/new-word/ was so much better.
The "good" thus comes from being a screen editor, not from using hjkl
for cursor movement.
> The first system I used had only ed, but I got my regexs down prety
> good.
We could probably swap stories about some primitive editors we've used.
> In those days on a new system it was ed or vi [and it's friends
> view and ex]
Ever use one of the early editors on CTSS?
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