Linux-Advocacy Digest #690, Volume #30 Wed, 6 Dec 00 16:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Linux is awful ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windows review (Brian V. Smith)
Re: Windows review ("Ayende Rahien")
Video ("mu6sys")
Audio ("mu6sys")
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! (Steve Mading)
Re: Linux growth rate explosion! (Steve Mading)
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Tore Lund)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Steve Mading)
TCO's (sfcybear)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 18:38:51 GMT
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:hdvX5.839$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:I0tX5.5092$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:EQlX5.5$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:iKaX5.683$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:PS0X5.1752$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in
> message
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > > > No, actually, it's part of the C2 security requirements. You need
a
> > way
> > > > to
> > > > > initiate a login which cannot be masked by a user mode program.
On
> a
> > > > > typical unix or Linux machine, you need only run a 10 line program
> > that
> > > > > clears the screen and prints login: to steal peoples passwords.
> > That's
> > > > not
> > > > > possible under NT if you don't have administrator privs.
> > > >
> > > > Say what!?
> > >
> > > From the TCSEC orange book manual:
> > >
> > > "The TCB shall support a trusted communication path between
> > > itself and users for use when a positive TCB-to-user
connection
> > is
> > > required (e.g., login, change subject security level).
> > > Communications via this trusted path shall be activated
> > exclusively
> > > by a user or the TCB and shall be logically isolated and
> > > unmistakably
> > > distinguishable from other paths."
> > >
> > > In other words, you must have a way to login that you cannot simulate
> with
> > a
> > > user program.
> > >
> > > Under NT, a user program cannot capture C-A-D, thus any program (such
as
> > the
> > > login) that does react to C-A-D can be reasonbly trusted to have been
> > > installed by someone with administrator privs.
> >
> > I'm sure a little hacking would undo that. I was questioning the "That's
> not
> > possible" quote. The second I hear that statements like that in regards
> to
> > security, I have to disregard them. There are skinny and dateless pencil
> > necks out there who, i'm sure, can blow right by it. Never say never.
>
> I said "not possible unless you have admin privs". Which is true. You
need
> to get admin privs in order to install a trojan that could do this.
Are we talking about a false dialog being left on the server console or a
workstation or are we talking about physically pre-empting the logiin
sequence with a trojan?
--
Tom Wilson
Registered Linux User #194021
http://counter.li.org
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux.x,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.os.linux,alt.os.linux.mandrake
Subject: Re: Linux is awful
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:42:13 +0200
"Uncle Fester" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > You linux assholes who
> > post pure lies like "Windows won't run more than a few days
> > at a time" are full of shit. You are sitting there with your head
> > stuck under the ground, trying to tell people what the world is
> > like. Those of us who aren't hiding can look and see that the
> > world is nothing like you claim.
>
>
> Then you never use your Windows machine much. Try this:
>
> !)Fire up a session of Q3A. After a hour or so, exit
> 2)Fire up a session of UT. Same procedure.
> 3)Fire up your ISP & Netscape. Don't be shy. Open your email window,
> your newsreader window, have 5 or 6 browser pages open, chasing down
> those hot leads on whatever topic interests you.
> 4)Shut it down & check your system resources.
>
> Odds are, you're under 80% free. As a gamer, anything under 85%
> required a reboot or thing started getting slow. And it's only been a
> couple hours! ;-) But I'm just a BS'ing Linux asshole, what do I know?
>
Switch Netscape with any other combination of Brwoser & newsreader & email
program.
You will have no problem playing in the same speed you had before.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows 2000 sucks compared to linux
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:45:45 +0200
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:xerX5.17275$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:90jvri$1dhfu$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > "Dennis Popov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:90juau$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > You're right, they do use it for web servers. But why would they?
Isn't
> > > linuix, according to most of you win2k advocates, nothing but a buggy,
> > > crashy, good for nothing os? Doesn't this prove that linux is actually
> > > superior to windows when it comes to serving web pages?
> >
> > No, it proves that those companies think in advance and are worried
about
> > the time when MS would change its license so CAL is everybody who send
GET
> > to your server :)
>
> It might snow in Miami tomorrow too. How come you're not worried about
that?
I'm several thousands kilometers away.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brian V. Smith)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt,comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: Windows review
Date: 6 Dec 2000 18:55:01 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JM) writes:
|> >The cards I've seen at Office Depot are a little over a dollar a megabyte.
|>
|> And you call that cheap? That would mean 128MB would cost about
|> $130!!!
Big deal. That IS cheap. Several years ago 128MB would have cost MUCH more.
--
===============================================================
Brian V. Smith ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www-epb.lbl.gov/BVSmith
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
I don't speak for LBL; they don't pay me enough for that.
Check out the xfig site at http://www-epb.lbl.gov/xfig
To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the
glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big
as it needs to be.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows review
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:28:11 +0200
"Brian V. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:90m225$dr$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JM)
writes:
>
> |> >The cards I've seen at Office Depot are a little over a dollar a
megabyte.
> |>
> |> And you call that cheap? That would mean 128MB would cost about
> |> $130!!!
>
> Big deal. That IS cheap. Several years ago 128MB would have cost MUCH
more.
I just bought a 256MB RAM chip in about 180$US, that translate to 1.4MB per
1$/0.7$ per MB
------------------------------
From: "mu6sys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Video
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:48:55 +0200
I need program that can play video files with provided SDK (or sources).
If anyone can give me any information please reply me.
Thanks,
Alex
------------------------------
From: "mu6sys" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Audio
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:57:30 +0200
I need program that can play to device starting from any place within the
mpeg file with provided SDK(or sources) , interface to TCL and volume
control.
If anyone can give any information please reply me.
Thanks,
Elena
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: 6 Dec 2000 20:23:54 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy D'Arcy Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: "Steve Mading" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
: news:90k07s$ge2$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
:> Interesting, you try to refute my point about Windows NT not having
:> such a thing by showing me an example of UNIX having such a
:> thing. (Note the use of the word "root". I've seen these types
:> of dialogs on UNIX machines many times. When do they happen on
:> NT?)
: What does this have to do with Java?
I should ask, why was Java added as a crosspost to a thread
about security in OS'es? Someone mentioned the JVM sandbox
and added a java newgroup, but that was not originally the
gist of the thread.
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux growth rate explosion!
Date: 6 Dec 2000 20:26:21 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Windows2000 has the runas command which is operable from both the
: command line:
[snip]
Good. I stand corrected then. It's about f'ing time Windows got
something like that. Now (when I'm stuck using Windows, which
thankfully is less and less often now) I don't have to be logged
in as Administrator just on the off chance that I might want to
install something.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:39:32 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Charlie Ebert in alt.destroy.microsoft on Wed, 06 Dec 2000 05:35:05
>On Tue, 05 Dec 2000 11:31:47 -0500, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Said Charlie Ebert in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 05 Dec 2000 01:51:20
>> [...]
>>>Fukenbusch! You are full of shit!
>>>By this argument your actually trying to sell the crowd
>>>that there IS a way to REMOVE TCPIP from Windows 2000
>>>and not just TURN IT OFF!!!!
>>>
>>>You need a bone marrow transplant to the BRAIN Fukenbusch!
>>>
>>>Who is going to listen to this 3 year old shit!
>>>
>>>Get off COLA!
>>
>>You know what? Erik Funkenbusch is one of the biggest Wintrolls I've
>>ever seen, and you're *still* full of shit. If you can't even
>>understand that in even a trivially technical discussion of software,
>>the concepts of 'remove' and 'turn off' aren't so arbitrary that you're
>>argument is pathetic ranting, then I'd prefer someone else's bone marrow
>>to your brains.
>>
>>--
>>T. Max Devlin
>> *** The best way to convince another is
>> to state your case moderately and
>> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
>>
>
>
>He was implying you could REMOVE the TCP-IP function from
>Windows 2000 by simply fiddling with a driver.
Well, he was *saying* that you could REMOVE the TCP/IP function from W2K
by simply removing a driver.
>Now, are you going to tell me this IS possible?
Yes, most definitely.
>IF you dont' believe me go back and read what the nitwit
>said.
Yes, that's what the nitwit said, and he's right, in that regard.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:39:37 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Charlie Ebert in alt.destroy.microsoft on Wed, 06 Dec 2000 05:32:20
[...]
>Are we to assume we can just remove the TCP-IP stack from
>ANY WINDOWS PRODUCT WITHOUT INVOLVING A RECOMPILE OF THE KERNEL?
>
>JEEZUS CHRIST MAN!
Are you just trolling? Were you not aware of the fact that TCP/IP is
not built into the kernel, as it is in Unix?
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:39:50 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Simon Cooke in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Mon, 04 Dec 2000 11:17:12
>"Ketil Z Malde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> "Chad C. Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> >>> Are you psychic or psychotic?
>>
>> >> You don't have to be either, just a bit less than dim-witted. If you
>> >> use e.g. SGML for your data format, it isn't very hard to be forward
>> >> compatible.
>>
>> > But that isn't the case, and IIRC nobody is doing that.
>>
>> Yes, a lot of people use closed and proprietary data formats, since
>> they then get an interface they're used to. Not everybody,though.
>>
>> It's not a technical problem, though, the lack of forward
>> compatibility is either due to
>>
>> a) incompetence and short-sightedness
>> b) wishing to lock in users and force software upgrades
>> c) malice
>>
>> In most cases, I'd be inclined to suggest a). Feel free to make up
>> your own mind.
>
>You forgot:
>
>d) business, time-to-market and cost constraints.
While 'a' is second-guessing, and 'c' is double-checking, 'b' is a
certainty and an anticompetitive (and thus illegal) mechanism. Simon's
'd', obviously, is an empty charade to mask 'b', when intentionally used
to monopolize.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:39:55 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Matt Kennel in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Tue, 5 Dec 2000 02:56:57
>On Mon, 04 Dec 2000 08:19:45 GMT, Ketil Z Malde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>:"Chad C. Mulligan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>:
>:>>> Are you psychic or psychotic?
>:
>:>> You don't have to be either, just a bit less than dim-witted. If you
>:>> use e.g. SGML for your data format, it isn't very hard to be forward
>:>> compatible.
>:
>:> But that isn't the case, and IIRC nobody is doing that.
>:
>:Yes, a lot of people use closed and proprietary data formats, since
>:they then get an interface they're used to. Not everybody,though.
>:
>:It's not a technical problem, though, the lack of forward
>:compatibility is either due to
>:
>: a) incompetence and short-sightedness
>: b) wishing to lock in users and force software upgrades
>: c) malice
>:
>:In most cases, I'd be inclined to suggest a). Feel free to make up
>:your own mind.
>
>The subpoenaed record of internal Microsoft documents over the last 10
>years has shown that in many reasonably similar situations, the intent
>was principally (b), the motivation being "anti-competitive practices
>to get more money for Microsoft", which some people might consider to
>be malicious.
>
>Think about it this way.
>
>Microsoft is making a really BIG push for XML, and working with
>various XML standardization committees for various industries to
>decide on their data formats.
>
>Note that XML is just syntax by itself; the definition of the semantics of
>the tags by such committees is the crucial piece.
>
>Where is the XML standardization committee for
>
> THE WORD PROCESSING INDUSTRY?
>
>and will Word 200x use the standard format therein as its native format?
An extremely succinct argument, and a very important (VERY IMPORTANT!!!)
point, Matt.
Thanks for your time. Hope it helps.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
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------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:39:57 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Ayende Rahien in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Tue, 5 Dec 2000 06:44:09
>"Matt Kennel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
[...]
>> Where is the XML standardization committee for
>>
>> THE WORD PROCESSING INDUSTRY?
>>
>> and will Word 200x use the standard format therein as its native format?
>
>Yes.
>And when it does, it would be a a POC just to look at the file with a text
>editor, and build a compatible word proceccor.
Compatible with which version? You are aware that within the 'text',
the XML tags are arbitrary designations?
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
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======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 02:40:04 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said Steve Mading in comp.os.linux.advocacy on 5 Dec 2000 00:50:42 GMT;
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>: That would be a pretty stupid way of handling the situation. There are
>: more productive ways of avoiding monopolization. Bear in mind, however,
>: that simply *acquiring and maintaining* a large market share is evidence
>: of monopolization. Free markets, you see, generally work to prevent one
>: vendor from gaining a "plurality of the market".
>
>I disagree strongly. Take for example, a brand new market that was
>created by the invention of one company producing one product.
Such an special case would hardly be a representative example, would it?
>For
>a while (until other companies figure out how to make similar
>offerings),
Itself a result of how much money there is to be made, which is to say
how valuable the market. So the more one wonders how long "a while"
might be, the shorter it should become, if you follow me.
>that product will be the only one of its kind on the
>market, and would thus qualify the company selling it of
>"monopolization" in your definition.
Certainly not. What definition of "monopolization" do you think I've
provided that this example would match? Certainly someone who just
happens to be first doesn't have the ability to exclude competition, and
thus is unable to control prices (the market does that).
>This would be true even if
>that company did nothing wrong yet. In 1903, the Wright Brothers
>were monopolists becuase they built 100% of the working flying
>machines in the world, at least according to your definition.
"The Wright Brothers" wasn't a profit-seeking company, precisely. Try
to stick to the real world, please.
>(Actually, technically you are right that they had a monopoly,
>but only if you use the term monopoly the right way, where it is
>not a crime until it gets misused. In the past you have shown that
>you don't use the word that way, hence my complaint.)
No, "monopolization" is a crime, as well as attempts to monopolize,
which is to say that acquiring, defending, or maintaining a monopoly is
crime. In the current message, you show that you don't use the term
"monopoly" correctly. For your edification, I'll be specific. A
"monopoly" is the power to control prices or exclude competition; that's
the "right way" to use the term.
>A good way to look at it is this: Let's say you run a company that
>has a massive majority of the market in some type of product.
Oops. Having over 47% of the market is itself evidence of criminal
activity. Better be careful you're acting competitively, because
chances are you shouldn't be in the positions of having a "massive
majority".
>You
>are trying to decide whether or not to instigate a new sales program
>or not. You are concerned that it might be illegally anti-competative.
>To find out if it is or not, ask yourself this question:
> - Would this technique I am comtemplating work if we were not
> already in the lead? In other words, is this idea something that
> is dependant on our pre-existing majority position in order to
> work, and therefore can't be countered by our smaller competitors?
>If the answer to that question is "yes", then it's an anti-competative
>illegal practice. If not, then it is legal.
You have so perfectly and accurately characterized the idea that I am...
flabbergasted.
>The terminology is such that ANY company that is already in such a
>massive majority position is called a "monopoly" regardless of
>whether they've done something wrong or not to get there.
The fact is, in a free market economy, you cannot get to the starting
point you indicate, really, unless you've already "monopolized", the
criminal offense involved. Free markets breed competition, not market
dominance by one producer for no reason other than some particular and
singular and potentially esoteric benefit which could only possibly
materially matter to some limited percentage of the customer base.
There is always a market for alternatives.
>It only
>becomes illegal when they start abusing that power to instigate
>programs that depend on their majority position to succeed.
The power to instigate programs to defend a majority position is called
"monopoly power", and *having* it is illegal. (The courts call it
"enjoying" monopoly power, because they can only be sure a company has
it if they attempt to use it. This is the issue you're really referring
to; the fact that 'monopoly power', and having it, is illegal, but an
abstraction.)
>(Such
>programs cannot be fairly countered by their competitors, who do not
>have that position.)
And avoiding such programs is, practically speaking, impossible once you
have the power to use them, since it will increase the return on
investment. Perhaps we *should* hold the investors responsible for a
corporation that monopolizes. Maybe that's the only way to ensure that
amoral corporations will be fair in market competition.
>An example of this was Microsoft telling PC vendors that they will be
>charged two prices for DOS, one cheaper price if they agree not to
>install any competing OS on any of their PCs, and another more
>expensive price if they want to also be able to install other OS's.
>This is clearly a tactic that would fail if it was tried by a company
>that was not already in the majoritiy, and as such, it was illegal.
Yes, this is why the consent decree was created, in the end. Too bad
the Reagan-era DoJ had shit for brains, and practically gave MS a
license to steal.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
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======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: Tore Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:27:15 +0100
Bill Vermillion wrote:
>
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Tore Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Bill Vermillion wrote:
> >>
> >> Many people have a hard time adjust to modal editors just because
> >> of this. If I press 'i' I either get 'i' on the screen or
> >> I'm placed in 'insert' mode if had pressed Escacpe to enter command
> >> mode.
>
> >Some indicator that showed which mode you are in would have been a
> >help. The lack of things like that in vi is, well, fairly typical of
> >programmers.
>
> A good typist NEVER looks at the paper/screen. They keep their eye
> fixed upon the notes they are transcribing. My mother typed
> between 110 and 120 and wore out parts of electrics that IBM has
> said they had never seen worn out before. She was a court-reporter
> and legal transcripts [then] took a lot of typing and NO errors and
> NO erasures were permitted. If you made a mistake on a page you
> retyped it. Anyone from that era would never look at a keyboard
> to see whats on the screen.
Hmmm, did I say otherwise? vi is specifically meant for *editing* text
and you certainly have to look at the screen in order to do that. Which
is why it would be nice to have some telltale signs to show which mode
you are in. Speed typing is another matter entirely.
> >On the old telex machines we had three bars where the space bar is:
>
> > +--------------------+ +--------------------+ +--------------------+
> > | Letters | | Space | | Signs and numbers |
> > +--------------------+ +--------------------+ +--------------------+
>
> I'll have to look at that keyboard the next time I see a Telex
> machine. One is in the front of a place I do some work. They put
> it in place when most people were removing them as they found it
> was easier to communicate with their European customers that way.
If it is a machine with 5-bit code (producing tape with 5 holes) you
might indeed find that arrangement.
Otherwise, thanks for your historical comments.
--
Tore
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: 6 Dec 2000 20:36:26 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: Steve Mading writes:
:> I would disagree strongly. Using the typewriter keys (like hjkl) is
:> much, much faster than losing the home-row placement of your fingers
:> to go hit the arrow keys, or the 'ins/home/end.etc...' keys, or to
:> move the mouse.
: Except that while you're typing, if you want to go back and correct an
: error, you first have to get out of insert mode by finding that escape
: key, which isn't on the home row, and then you have to get back into
: insert mode with the i key, which also isn't on the home row.
To hit ESC, you don't have to move your whole arm, just stretch
your finger a bit (Especially so on the older keyboards for which
VI was designed, which put the escape key at the left edge of the
numbers row.) Not only that, but you use your LEFT hand, while the
RIGHT stays by the hjkl keys. To hit 'i', you don't have to move
your hand at all. You would have to be a really terrible typist to
lose track of the home row just becuase you hit a key on the top row.
Now, when you have to move your whole hand by swinging your forearm
in order to reach the 'special keys', then you have to look down
to find your finger positions. The only thing I would change about
HJKL would be to have made it be JKL; instead, so that you use all
four home-row fingers rather than just three of them with the index
finger doing double-duty. But this is a very small difference.
------------------------------
From: sfcybear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: TCO's
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:35:32 GMT
Good read on from SlashTCO
http://www.slashtco.com/article.pl?sid=00/12/06/110250
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
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