Linux-Advocacy Digest #858, Volume #30 Wed, 13 Dec 00 18:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:27:18 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>
> >> Russ Lyttle writes:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Steve Mading writes:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not exactly uncommon. When my VCR is "off", it's still on by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to keep a clock running and monitor its programming to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine whether to turn "on" (or should I say "more on") and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> record a program. Doesn't make the power switch any less
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, I would say that that sort of power switch is highly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> unintuitive. Intuitively, you'd expect that turning something
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> off would, you know, actually turn it off.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on what you consider "off" to be. When you turn your
> >>>>>>>>>>>> microwave oven off, do you expect it to lose the time? (Yes,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that does presuppose an oven with a clock on the display.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any new models that don't have one of those built in?)
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I haven't seen any microwaves with an on/off button lately.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Okay then, "Start/Stop", if you must be pedantic.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> If they had them, then yeah, I'd expect them to at least turn
> >>>>>>>>>>> the display off, and go down to a trickle that only serves
> >>>>>>>>>>> to maintain a few K of RAM (for the clock and maybe some programs)
> >>>>>>>>>>> (which takes very little power, as evidenced by calculators and
> >>>>>>>>>>> watches, and could be done by battery like it is for CMOS
> >>>>>>>>>>> settings on computers.)
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Even with the display on, it could still be a trickle.
>
> >>>>>>>>> All this "unintuitive" behavior of power switches is causing a major
> >>>>>>>>> problem in California.
>
> >>>>>>>> Illogical. It is quite possible that people will generally know what
> >>>>>>>> to do with a power switch without needing to consult a manual, but will
> >>>>>>>> not generally know how much power is consumed in the on and off states.
> >>>>>>>> Consider the AC adaptor for a modem, for example. The power switch is
> >>>>>>>> on the modem, not the AC adaptor.
>
> >>>>>>> Logical. The behavior of the power switch changed from its traditional
> >>>>>>> role. People *think* it still works the way it did 10 years ago.
>
> >>>>>> Oh really? Your Curtis Mathes is older than that. You claim it kept
> >>>>>> the power on.
>
> >>>>> Yes, but it was very unusual for its time.
>
> >>>> Really? I had a clock-radio that when "off" kept the clock on. Very usual
> >>>> for its time.
>
> >> Note: no response.
>
> >>>>>>> Its behavior isn't capable of being comprehended without logical thought.
>
> >>>>>> And with logical thought, the average consumer will know how much power
> >>>>>> is still being consumed by a unit even when the switch is in the off
> >>>>>> position? That's not the issue here.
>
> >>>>>>> (See definition of intuitive).
>
> >>>>>> Practice what you preach.
>
> >>>>>>> They are still trying to make decisions
> >>>>>>> based on the traditional use of the power switch - power cord setup.
>
> >>>>>> On the contrary, sounds like your example involves a mislabeled
> >>>>>> button. There is a difference between "video blank" and "power off".
> >>>>>> You've described the former. I've been talking about the latter.
>
> >>>>> No, they concern the device that serves as a power switch these days.
>
> >>>> An "off" switch that leaves 10 amps of power running isn't much of an
> >>>> off switch.
>
> >> Note: no response.
>
> >>>>>>>>> The issue of all these devices still drawing power is keeping a
> >>>>>>>>> load on the system that it wasn't designed to handle.
>
> >>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that systems outside of California were somehow
> >>>>>>>> designed to handle it?
>
> >>>>>>> No. Outside CA, NY, and MA, there have been more plants built. These
> >>>>>>> plants are now selling some of their excess off peak power to CA. In the
> >>>>>>> past CA would sell power to Texas during the peak time in Texas and
> >>>>>>> Texas would sell to CA during the peak time there. Now the transfer is
> >>>>>>> all one way. To CA. But it is getting difficult for Texas utilities to
> >>>>>>> justify building more plants just to have power to sell to CA. They have
> >>>>>>> to justify the need for plants based on need in Texas.
>
> >>>>>> That has nothing to do with being designed to handle the load.
>
> >>>>>>>>> That coupled with lack of new power generation in California is putting
> >>>>>>>>> a strain on the system now, promising a major breakdown in the near
> >>>>>>>>> future.
>
> >>>>>>>> Sounds like those Californians are going to have to do without their
> >>>>>>>> 72-inch projection televisions. (Did your Curtis Mathes need 10 amps
> >>>>>>>> to keep its filament going?)
>
> >>>>>> Note: no response.
>
> >>>>>>>>> Relying to much on intuition and not enough on reason is going
> >>>>>>>>> to get a lot of people killed.
>
> >>>>>>>> The power consumed by a device in the off state has absolutely
> >>>>>>>> nothing to do with the issue of whether the power switch itself
> >>>>>>>> is intuitive.
>
> >>>>>> Note: no response.
>
> >>>>> OK, what is your intuitive concept of the operation of a power switch?
>
> >>>> One position is "on" and the other position is "off".
>
> >>> The switch marked "on" and "off" on my 1903A4 Springfield is a Power
> >>> Switch?
>
> >> Show me your 1903A4 Springfield.
>
> >>> Not all switches marked thus perform the same functions or
> >>> perform the same functions the same way!
>
> >> Irrelevant, given that I didn't say they do.
>
> > Tholen...
> > when you finally realize how utterly worthless your life is...
> > remember to slit lengthwise.
>
> Kulkis, when you finally realize how utterly worthless your invective
> is, remember to come back here and apologize.
Tholen...
When you finally realize how utterly worthless your life is...
remember to slit lengthwise.
Or maybe you can offer yourself to one of the local Hawaiian volcano gods.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:27:26 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>
> >> Les Mikesell writes:
>
> >>>>> Not true. What if you want to look for something ("Please find the
> >>>>> word "goose" in this document")?
>
> >>>> You don't use hjkl.
>
> >>> You do if you want to move the screen a line one way or the other
> >>> after finding the match.
>
> >> You can do that with control-U (for up) and control-D (for down), which
> >> actually have mnemonics.
>
> >>>>> Do that in traditional 'more' and you still have to scan
> >>>>> the page with your eyes once it comes up.
>
> >>>> Finding an occurrence of a string is a rather different matter from
> >>>> simply viewing a document. The latter was what he brought up.
>
> >>> No it isn't.
>
> >> Balderdash. I suggest you review the thread.
>
> >>> I almost always search for something when I view a document.
>
> >> What you almost always do is irrelevant. Viewing a document is
> >> what was brought up, not searching a document. By the way, you
> >> can search a document with grep.
>
> >>> Being able to do it the same way in the viewer as in an editor
> >>> makes the one you learned second intuitive.
>
> >> Only if you know beforehand that the two operate the same way.
>
> >>>>>> My point is that its action isn't intuitive.
>
> >>>>> To whom?
>
> >>>> To someone who hasn't used it before. Who else? Intuition
> >>>> doesn't apply to something that someone already knows.
>
> >>> Of course it does.
>
> >> I suggest you learn the definition of intuition. Knowing how to
> >> brush your teeth in the morning because you've been doing it for
> >> years doesn't mean it's now intuitive.
>
> >>> How can someone that doesn't know anything at all use a computer?
>
> >> By reading the manual. That doesn't involve intuition; it involves
> >> learning.
>
> >>>> You have a peculiar notion of intuition. Needing to know a bunch
> >>>> of things suddenly makes something intuitive.
>
> >>> Being able to re-use the same thing you already know in
> >>> another context makes the subsequent one intuitive.
>
> >> How many previous editors use hjkl for cursor movement like vi?
>
> >>> Vi lets you re-use almost everything you learn in many different
> >>> ways.
>
> >> I learned to use Alt-C to mark a block column; vi doesn't let me
> >> re-use that. I learned to use Alt-W to write a buffer to disk;
> >> vi doesn't let me re-use that. I learned to use Alt-X to exit
> >> the editor; vi doesn't let me re-use that. I learned to use the
> >> Home key to go to the top of the screen; vi doesn't let me re-use
> >> that. Need I go on?
>
> >>>>> If you stick '$' in where a character or character mover could go -
> >>>>> it means eoln, if you stick it where a line number could go - it
> >>>>> means last line. It's 100% consistent.
>
> >>>> You mean the $ never means the dollar sign?
>
> >>> Not in the range/motion part of a command.
>
> >> So in other parts, it could be inconsistent.
>
> >>>>> In the statement :1,$...something... the '$' is being used in the
> >>>>> place of a line number.
>
> >>>> Thus the symbol is overloaded, and not consistent.
>
> >>> But the meanings have something in common so it is consistent.
> >>> Note how our use of consistent is overloaded and not consistent.
>
> >> Not consistent with one another. Your use could be erroneous.
>
> >>> We do this all the time and find it easier than remembering a
> >>> different symbol for every nuance of meaning.
>
> >> But you need to remember a different meaning.
>
> >>>>>> Is 4dk a special case?
>
> >>>>> It fits the generic pattern: {number}{command}{movement}
>
> >>>> I see you missed my point.
>
> >>> I did as well.
>
> >> Glad you agree.
>
> >>> What point? It re-uses the same information you learned for
> >>> every other vi command.
>
> >> The key words here are "you learned".
>
> >>>>>>> Carriage-returns are control-M characters
>
> >>>>>> So one might expect to enter a control-M into the document by typing
> >>>>>> control-M. Doesn't work. Oh, so you need a prefix. Now, what is so
> >>>>>> intuitive about control-V as the prefix? A UNIX novice might expect
> >>>>>> the backslash to be used as the prefix.
>
> >>>>> Ctrl-V is common in many other unix interactive tools.
>
> >>>> Backslash is common in many other UNIX applications.
>
> >>> Backslash is the 'high level' escape actually seen by application
> >>> level input and a backslash preceding the end-of-line typically
> >>> means the app should ignore the line end and consider the next
> >>> line a continuation.
>
> >> That there might be different levels of escape is also not intuitive.
>
> >>> The control-V is normally the 'lnext' character in the tty input
> >>> subsystem below application level.
>
> >> The average user isn't going to know about tty input subsystems.
>
> >>> For example you can input a literal control-C or control-Z
> >>> into an application through the keyboard by preceding with
> >>> the control-V, even though they would normally generate
> >>> a signal at the OS level.
>
> >> The average user isn't going to know about signals at the OS level.
>
> >>> Vi is actually doing raw input and is in control of this escape
> >>> mechanism so it doesn't have to match the OS 'lnext' character,
> >>> but since the function is exactly the same, this is yet another
> >>> place vi does the intuitive thing and re-uses what you know in
> >>> another context.
>
> >> You're presupposing knowledge of tty input subsystems and OS signals.
>
> >>>> Do you consider yourself a UNIX novice?
>
> >>> Why would that matter?
>
> >> Intuition doesn't apply to people who already have experience.
>
> >>> A novice has less chance to re-use knowledge in intuitive ways.
>
> >> A novice has a greater chance to rely on intuition.
>
> >>>>> It's mnemonic is "verbatim", as in, "Do this next character verbatim,
> >>>>> ignoring any special meaning it may have."
>
> >>>> And do you consider the mnemonic intuitive?
>
> >>> Mnemonics are usually made up after the fact, but they are
> >>> as intuitive as anything else.
>
> >> Are you suggesting that control-U and control-D were chosen before
> >> the "up" and "down" mnemonics were made up?
>
> > Tholen...
> > when you finally realize how utterly worthless your life is...
> > remember to slit lengthwise.
>
> Kulkis, when you finally realize how utterly worthless your invective
> is, remember to come back here and apologize.
Tholen...
When you finally realize how utterly worthless your life is...
remember to slit lengthwise.
Or maybe you can offer yourself to one of the local Hawaiian volcano gods.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 17:27:34 -0500
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Aaron R. Kulkis writes:
>
> >> Steve Mading writes:
>
> >>>>>> And that somehow makes the use of hjkl for cursor movement intuitive?
>
> >>>>> It is neither intuitive nor non-intuitive, since the term is so
> >>>>> relative that you've have to spend a long time detailing all the
> >>>>> user's previous circumstances before you can make a statement
> >>>>> either way on it.
>
> >>>> How many users have previous editor experience where the cursor is
> >>>> controlled by the hjkl keys?
>
> >> Note: no response.
>
> >>>>> Simply saying, "never used vi before" isn't enough.
>
> >>>> Fortunately, I've said more than that.
>
> >>> True enough. It still isn't enough to just say, 'never used a text
> >>> editor before' either.
>
> >> Irrelevant, given that I didn't say just that either.
>
> >>> Arguing whether something is intuitive or
> >>> not CANNOT BE DONE UNIVERSALLY.
>
> >> Irrelevant, given that I didn't argue that either.
>
> >>> That is my point.
>
> >> Why make an irrelevant point? If you'd been paying attention, you'd
> >> already know that I've said that intuition is not an absolute.
>
> >>> You have to give a *HUGE* list of pre-conditions, one little sentence
> >>> like that isn't enough to narrow it down.
>
> >> Fortunately, I've given more than that one little sentence.
>
> >>> That's why arguing whether or not something is "intuitive" is silly.
>
> >> I don't find it silly. If you do, then why are you arguing about it?
>
> >>> It's too vague and slippery a term.
>
> >> I disagree. Just because it isn't an absolute doesn't necessarily
> >> make it "vague and slippery".
>
> >>> Unless you feel like getting pendantic enough to list zillions of
> >>> criteria, the term won't mean anything.
>
> >> Funny how so many people make valid use of it without listing zillions
> >> of criteria.
>
> >>> (This is not the same as what Aaron was saying, that nothing can be
> >>> intuitive.
>
> >> That's not what he said. He said that nothing about computers is
> >> intuitive. He distinctly called a wagon intuitive. It's now quite
> >> clear where the problem is: you don't pay attention to what you
> >> read.
>
> >>> Things can be intuitive, but in a way that is not nearly
> >>> as universally applicable as the user interface designers trick
> >>> themselves into thinking.
>
> >> Who said anything about "universally applicable"?
>
> >>> There is no such thing as universal user friendliness, and there
> >>> is no such thing as *universal* intuitiveness.
>
> >> Irrelevant, given that I haven't encountered anyone in this discussion
> >> who believes otherwise.
>
> >>> User interface designers make assumptions about the
> >>> users' previous experiences without realizing it.)
>
> >> Some designers do realize it.
>
> >>>>> I never used it before, the first time I got my hands on
> >>>>> it, but I picked it up fast. And no, I didn't like it at first,
> >>>>> I hated the HJKL thing.
>
> >>>> Liking or hating it isn't the issue. The issue is whether the cursor
> >>>> movement using those keys was intuitive or not.
>
> >>>>> But I *did* remember it and not have to waste time looking it up,
>
> >>>> Remember it from what?
>
> >>> The first time I looked at the 'cheat sheet', saw the 'hjkl',
>
> >> Thus you needed to consult a "manual" of sorts.
>
> >>> I immediately recognized that they must have been chosen because of
> >>> thier proximity on the keyboard, and *poof*, I never forgot what
> >>> they were.
>
> >> Irrelevant, given that intuition is different from ease of remembering
> >> something.
>
> >>> I still didn't like the modal nature of it (yet), but
> >>> I never sat around pulling out my hair going, 'Oh, damn - what was
> >>> that command again - gee if only it were more intuitive so I could
> >>> remember.'
>
> >> Do all such vi commands fall into that category?
>
> >>>>> so it wasn't a matter of intuitiveness that made me hate it - it
> >>>>> was that I thought modal editing took too many keystrokes,
> >>>>> constantly switching modes.
>
> >>>> That is one of my dislikes as well.
>
> >>>>> After I got really fast at it, and could compare, I was seeing that
> >>>>> the modal editing was actually faster for me, precisely becuase I
> >>>>> had less keys to have to cover with my fingers.
>
> >>>> It's slower for me. So what? Speed wasn't the issue either.
> >>>>
> >>>> Actually, I'm quite surprised at how much the discussion has
> >>>> diverged from the issue. Seems like vi fans are trying to defend
> >>>> their choice of editor, as if the comment that the use of hjkl for
> >>>> cursor movement being non-intuitive was some sort of attack against
> >>>> which a defense had to be mounted.
>
> >>> It's becuase you *also* lace your comments with disparaging comments
> >>> about vi, as side points.
>
> >> What alleged "disparaging comments"? I simply said that the use of
> >> hjkl for cursor movement was not intuitive, and the vi defenders showed
> >> up right after that.
>
> >>> In usenet, side points like this spawn replies all the time.
>
> >> What alleged "side points"? I simply said that the use of
> >> hjkl for cursor movement was not intuitive, and the vi defenders showed
> >> up right after that.
>
> >>> It's not surprising at all.
>
> >> It that supposed to be some sort of justification for your diversions?
>
> > Tholen...
> > when you finally realize how utterly worthless your life is...
> > remember to slit lengthwise.
>
> Kulkis, when you finally realize how utterly worthless your invective
> is, remember to come back here and apologize.
Tholen...
When you finally realize how utterly worthless your life is...
remember to slit lengthwise.
Or maybe you can offer yourself to one of the local Hawaiian volcano gods.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
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