Linux-Advocacy Digest #37, Volume #31 Sat, 23 Dec 00 19:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: This group should rename itself (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Windows - Is It Really Easier to Use? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: An Entire Day With Linux (Yukkkkk!!!) (Yatima)
Re: This group should rename itself (Shane Phelps)
Re: An Entire Day With Linux (Yukkkkk!!!) (Yatima)
Re: This group should rename itself (Mig)
Re: This group should rename itself (Yatima)
Re: Annoyed at installations ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: New to Linux, and I am not satisfied. (Bob Hauck)
Re: Question with Security on Linux/Unix versus Windows NT/2000 (Bob Hauck)
Re: Troll playground (Optional Identity)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: This group should rename itself
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:20:55 +0000
Shane Phelps wrote:
> I asked a serious question, Pete. It requires more than a yes/no answer.
> A WM does not an OS make. How am I misinterpreting your argument?
You ask for more than a yes/no answer, I thought I gave you that.
> BTW, I just installed Mandrake 7.2 on a Dell Dimension L566cx
> and allowed it to use XFree86 4 and KDE2. There are definitely
> problems with screen redraw on terminal sessions. I am far
> more inclined to put this down to problems with Xfree86 4 than
> anything else (possibly the accelerated video support) since
> it worked fine with XFree86 3.x and Enlightenment in its earlier
> life with Red Hat 6.2.
KDE applications have problems. Try accessing a directory with a large
number of files. Watch what happens, try to click on a file whilst it's
running. It doesn't crash, but it picks the _wrong_ file.
KWord is definately buggy. It has redraw problems and it crashes quite
regularly. KDE aspires to be a desktop manager - it's the closest I've seen
to Windows, including applications. Yet there are problems with these
applications. KDE 2.0 is showing all the signs that certain Linux bigots
claim Windows has.
--
Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Windows - Is It Really Easier to Use?
Date: 23 Dec 2000 22:19:22 GMT
On 23 Dec 2000 19:16:27 GMT, Perry Pip wrote:
>On 22 Dec 2000 15:57:45 GMT,
>Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Do you understand "not supported"??? The video card in question is
>*not* supported under Xfree 4.01 *nor* supported by the vendor. I am
>not defending Mandrake but at their web site:
>
>http://www.linux-mandrake.com/en/fhard.php3
If it's not supported, then I suppose the distributor doesn't have any
obligation to support it. I believe someone did claim it was supported
by the distributor.
>good vendors in any industry. Just becuase Yugo makes a shitty car
>doesn't mean all cars are shitty. Does it?? Just because some
>distributers make a shitty Linux doesn't mean Linux is shitty.
Didn't say it did.
>So in the twenties did so many people hate cars and radios?? How about
>TV in the fifties?? Microwave ovens in the seventies?? For that
>matter, Mac's in the eighties??
These were all somewhat simpler than modern computers (even the macs). But
yes, I do know people who have all sorts of trouble with their VCRs, hifi
systems, digital watches, etc. (especially the older people in my family. I
sort of act as their support person for these things )
Of course the more complex the device, the more likely people are to have
trouble with it. BTW, I find the interfaces on a lot of appliances considerably
more cryptic than computers.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Yatima)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: An Entire Day With Linux (Yukkkkk!!!)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:34:47 GMT
On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:56:39 GMT, Kyle Jacobs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I love how you idiots "plonk" people when they have something logical to
>say.
You have no idea why he plonked him. Steve/Claire_Lynn/Swango/Flatfish
etc. is a well known troll who keeps changing aliases and as a result is
difficult to filter for any period of time. Perhaps it was just a matter
of rescoring.
>Well, whatever keeps you in your little Linux world, where Linux is supreme,
>the only available choice, and your own, personal Microsoft.
Dramatize it bit more pal. WTF, does this have to do with killfiling
anyways?
This may come as a shock to you but many of the linux advocates
here are familiar with and still use MS products from time to time (I
dual boot to play games).
--
yatima
------------------------------
From: Shane Phelps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: This group should rename itself
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:39:21 +1100
Pete Goodwin wrote:
>
> Shane Phelps wrote:
>
> > I asked a serious question, Pete. It requires more than a yes/no answer.
> > A WM does not an OS make. How am I misinterpreting your argument?
>
> You ask for more than a yes/no answer, I thought I gave you that.
I think I misread your reply. Apologies. Let's try again.
You're saying that the Win32 interface is a better WM than KDE2?
If that's the case, I agree with you. I also agree about stability.
KDE2 seems to have a fair way to go. I think I'll go back to
Gnome for a bit longer. To be honest, I prefer olwm. Sun did me
a grave disservice going over to the dark side with CDE :-(
Why not try Gnome instead of KDE? Gnome is missing a couple of KDE's
features, but it seems to be a good solid system.
>
> > BTW, I just installed Mandrake 7.2 on a Dell Dimension L566cx
> > and allowed it to use XFree86 4 and KDE2. There are definitely
> > problems with screen redraw on terminal sessions. I am far
> > more inclined to put this down to problems with Xfree86 4 than
> > anything else (possibly the accelerated video support) since
> > it worked fine with XFree86 3.x and Enlightenment in its earlier
> > life with Red Hat 6.2.
>
> KDE applications have problems. Try accessing a directory with a large
> number of files. Watch what happens, try to click on a file whilst it's
> running. It doesn't crash, but it picks the _wrong_ file.
>
> KWord is definately buggy. It has redraw problems and it crashes quite
> regularly. KDE aspires to be a desktop manager - it's the closest I've seen
> to Windows, including applications. Yet there are problems with these
> applications. KDE 2.0 is showing all the signs that certain Linux bigots
> claim Windows has.
>
> --
> Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
Thanks for the warning. Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's back to Gnome I go :-)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Yatima)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: An Entire Day With Linux (Yukkkkk!!!)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:38:38 GMT
On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 05:43:56 GMT, Kyle Jacobs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What USER INTERFACE?
>
>That's two words that "The Community" insists is blasphmany.
Really? When did they decide this as a "Community"? (URLs are much
appreciated).
BTW, stop top posting and quoting entire messages. It's very poor
netiquette and consumes bandwith that costs people with pay per min
dialup connections.
--
yatima
------------------------------
From: Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: This group should rename itself
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:37:00 +0100
Pete Goodwin wrote:
> Shane Phelps wrote:
>
> > I asked a serious question, Pete. It requires more than a yes/no answer.
> > A WM does not an OS make. How am I misinterpreting your argument?
>
> You ask for more than a yes/no answer, I thought I gave you that.
>
> > BTW, I just installed Mandrake 7.2 on a Dell Dimension L566cx
> > and allowed it to use XFree86 4 and KDE2. There are definitely
> > problems with screen redraw on terminal sessions. I am far
> > more inclined to put this down to problems with Xfree86 4 than
> > anything else (possibly the accelerated video support) since
> > it worked fine with XFree86 3.x and Enlightenment in its earlier
> > life with Red Hat 6.2.
>
> KDE applications have problems. Try accessing a directory with a large
> number of files. Watch what happens, try to click on a file whilst it's
> running. It doesn't crash, but it picks the _wrong_ file.
No problem here Pete...are you sure your fingers are not trembling?
> KWord is definately buggy. It has redraw problems and it crashes quite
> regularly. KDE aspires to be a desktop manager - it's the closest I've
Kword is buggy and is preBeta software.. Koffice should never have been
include in a KDE2 release..
> seen to Windows, including applications. Yet there are problems with these
> applications. KDE 2.0 is showing all the signs that certain Linux bigots
> claim Windows has.
Its no more close to Windows than Gnome.
And the signs are?
--
Cheers
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Yatima)
Subject: Re: This group should rename itself
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 22:59:29 GMT
On 23 Dec 2000 17:47:47 +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
>Then again, I really *like* my MP3 player. It runs on the machine that
>is connected to the right one of my three monitors, and whenever it
>starts playing a new title, it puts the scanned album cover in the X
>background, with a list of all titles on the album next to it (and the
>currently playing one highlighted), and the current title in nice
>big letters underneath.
Cool! What program(s) are you using to do this?
>But the good part is that with the keyboard I
>have in my lap (which is shared between 4 machines, and might at any
>point in time be logically connected to any one of them --- physical
>connection is to the computer driving the left hand screen), I can
>always press NUMPAD-0 to skip to a random song from my collection, or
>press NUMPAD-'.' to stay within the album and (upon subsequent pressed)
>skip to the next song on the album.
This sounds really handy as well.
<more snippage>
>I don't do word processing (when I do write formatted text, I do
>typesetting), so I can't comment on it.
LATEX RULEZ :) Hrmm, sorry, got carried away.
--
yatima
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: Annoyed at installations
Reply-To: waldo
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:15:56 GMT
On 23 Dec 2000 17:18:39 +1000, "x" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi
>
>I'm not a Linux hater
You will be shortly.
> but I am annoyed at some of the major Linux websites
>out there. I initially installed Red Hat Linux 5.2 (Apollo) from a CD-ROM
>that came with a computer magazine and small instruction book. I don't
>have the instruction book anymore and I thought the internet would be able
>to help me. It hasn't really helped at all.
If you haven't spent at least a week looking for the information, then
you haven't really tried at all now have you?
>I'm interested in setting up a webserver and heard about Apache which is
>installed on my Linux partition. The configuration file was just not
>friendly enough for me so I searched the internet for relevant material.
>Ahh Comanche! (Configuration Manager for Apache) By the screen shots it
>looked very user friendly, so I downloaded it.
Linux not friendly?
What blasphemies are we spouting here?
Where Linux is concerned looks are always deceiving. So is Linux for
that matter.
> Ofcourse I read the
>instructions before hand. I uncompressed it, then untarred it, and ... no
>executables, no relevant readme files, no Makefile, nothing! What's gone
>wrong!
Be thankful you didn't hose your entire system. You need to write your
own makefile, and you might have change a few options in the compiler
but you'll get it sooner or later. We are all counting on you now so
don't let us down.
>Anyway after 9 hours, 12 reboots, 8 internet connections, and more reading
>and downloading, I'm were I started at the beginning of the day. Sure I
>can understand configuration files. If I didn't I'd go read up on them.
Only 9 hours?
Come back in a week.
>But when it comes to installation of any software, websites just give the
>crappiest information.
Why should you even have to go to a website for instructions on how to
install software? Oh yea I forgot , this is Linux. The system that is
supposed to be better than Windows.
>For example: Instructions for downloading and installing the latest TCL
>Compiler.
>(The only instructions on this website for UNIX users)
>
>After you've downloaded the appropriate file, run gunzip -c tcl8.3.2.tar.gz
>
>All that did was verbally list the contents of the archive to screen (for
>15 minutes). Thanks for the installation instructions! (They were the
>only installation instructions for UNIX users by the way).
Sounds like something a Peguin-pal will go wild over. I mean all that
text scrolling by on the screen has got to light them up!
>I'm just not having any luck installing new software and no luck running
>existing software. I can't get the dial-up networking to work, so I can't
>use the internet while I'm in Linux. And the damn X-windows is running at
>1280x1024 on my 15" monitor and I can't change the resolution.
Welcome to Linux the system that RUNS the internet but doesn't allow
you to CONNECT to the internet.
>More people would take up Linux if there was a Help Website or Linux
But they are not, mainly for the same reasons you are having troubles.
Linux sucks.
>Reference for setting up things. A simple table of Contents would suffice;
>ie. Linux Installation, X-Windows Setup (including desktop and resolution
>:) ), Installing New Software, Installing New Hardware. New Linux OS
>packages should come with user-friendly interfaces or atleast user-friendly
>configuration utilites.
It's on the To-Do list, after another 100 text editors, compilers and
perl scripts are written. We should see some relief by 2100 or so.
>From what I've seen, the only people who know what their doing with Linux
>are those who have studied it for a long time. I shouldn't have to know
>how to program various languages in Linux just to run a couple of
>applications. After all, that's all a webserver is, an application with
>settings.
Wasted their time, not studied.
>Anyway I'll keep trying. It just seems that the only way newbies can
>progress through the Linux system is if they ask questions and get answers
>or spend a fortune on books or courses. And I'm just talking your average
>wannabe Linux user.
The true Penguin-pal never admits to Linux's many faults and
absolutely NEVER admits to having problems.
That's why they call it Lie-Nux.
>A good example, is someone putting forward a configuration problem, and
>another person replying "it's this config file in this path". How are we
>supposed to know???
Another week of reading and maybe you'll find the answer. Hint: man
path won't do it for you.
>By the way, Windows 95 users want small taste of webserving, check out
>Simple Server. It's a puny program about 1/4 MB but it impressed me. From
>download to installation (actually there was no installation) and running
>it, about 15 minutes. Hehe
That's what Windows is all about. Easy to use, setup and run
applications that real world people can use. Not a hodgepodge of a
conglomeration of junk like Linux is.
>Cya
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: New to Linux, and I am not satisfied.
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:43:42 GMT
On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 19:40:31 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Said Bob Hauck in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:43:43
>GMT;
>>RemarQ/Supernews offers an NNTP service to ISP's who want to outsource,
>>as opposed to the web-based thing they offer to the public.
>I am aware of all that, and as I stated in the original message, I am
>entirely unwilling to pay a service which doesn't consider my market to
>be their main source of business, or at least *a* main source of
>business.
I don't think you're following along here Max. My suggestion is that
your ISP pay them, not you. We included Usenet in the subscription fee,
just like email. For the most part we had fewer problems than when we
were trying to do it ourselves. At least I didn't get paged at 4am
because some bozo in Florida with a cable modem uploaded a couple GB of
Grateful Dead tunes and filled up my spool.
> RemarQ has already proven in the past that it will screw over
> NNTP users, because its going for the "web idiot gold mine".
Ok, whatever. You don't like them. I guess I had a better experience.
There's other suppliers.
>> Usenet is one of those things where there really are economies of
>> scale.
> So how come you had to pay by the number of simultaneous users?
How else would you price it? You could do flat-rate, but that would
mean the little customers subsidize the big ones.
The economies of scale I spoke about are related to the fact that a
small ISP doing their own news server will be carrying thousands of
groups that literally none of their customers read. Yet there is no way
to know in advance which groups to leave out and if you do leave some
out sooner or later somebody will ask about them (even if they only read
it once). So they are paying for disk space and bandwidth to download
groups that nobody reads. And that's a lot of disk space and a lot
of bandwidth these days.
A bigger operation avoids this waste, but they still have to provide
per-user resources too.
> They already do things like this, although their supplier is even more
> focused on this type of thing than RemarQ is.
Apparently they aren't satisfying you though.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Question with Security on Linux/Unix versus Windows NT/2000
Reply-To: bobh{at}haucks{dot}org
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 23:43:44 GMT
On Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:54:04 -0500, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>This one small difference is a huge example of how NT is not designed to
>be a truly secure system. It does not have the infrastructure to provide
>sufficient functionality within a sufficient security level. The only
>way to use the system -- casually -- one must have some dangerous
>privileges.
Well, I think it does have the infrastructure to be secure, it just
isn't used much. One huge reason for this is that a default install of
NT is so insecure. If the default install of NT had restrictions on
users like a default Unix install does, then vendors would be much more
incentivized to do things right.
The problem is that many programs are written to a Win9x model and don't
do the right things as far as use of registry keys and such. The
vendors get away with this because the poor security on a default
installation of NT allows it to work. OTOH, one could probably make an
agrument that the whole registry mechanism is too complicated and that
is the reason that developers don't use it as they should. There seems
to be a lot of random and unexplained complexity in Win32.
Perhaps the Unix scheme of using hidden files in $HOME to store per-user
configuration is easier to program. On the Unix side there's also a
long-established culture of how things ought to be done that NT seems to
lack.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: Optional Identity <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.flamenet,alt.hackers.malicious,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.troll,alt.flame,alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk,alt.romath,alt.stupidity,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.fan.karl-malden.nose,alt.pizza.delivery.drivers
Subject: Re: Troll playground
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 11:02:25 +1100
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Replace NOSPAMM with optionalidentity to reply)
According to the old (pre-meow) calendar, on Thu, 21 Dec 2000 20:04:56
-0500, the Troll çü <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Expectorated this gratuitously
obvious, attention, seeking, statement into the aethyr of
alt.usenet.kooks :
>On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 19:42:21 -0500, "Ignorant Lutefisk"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Well, what can you expect from an ignorant lutefisk? :)
>
>i think that you misspelled "ljutefisk" you're welcome.
>
>>
>>PS: Didn't somebody promise not to reply to this "obvious troll" only a few
>>hours ago?
>
>really? promised? are you sure?
>
>
>>PPS: Tipping a pizzaboi should be considered a sin.
>
>nope. if you tip them over sometimes they land in the pizza. this can
>be quite amusing.
>
It's like cow tipping, dubious morally, but way fun.
--
--
Optional Identity
Skepticult Rank: Colonel
Skepticult Serial Number: 321-29337-833
"During the space race, the Americans spent $4 million developing a
space-pen (a biro that does not rely on gravity: it uses compressed
gas). The Russians used pencils."
Weyoun the Dancing Borg AKA 420 explains the Cold War,
in msg ID <PujJ5.10959$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
What is all this shit about masutrbating. Are you saying you don't, or
didn't in the past? Any man who doesn't whack it isn't a man, and
doesn't have a penis. Cock Rocket explains his masculinity in msg
ID <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
You're Optional Identity??? Oh, I forgot, everyone in this group is a
carbon copy wannabe of the Cock Rocket. Get over it.
Cock Rocket has delusions anyone wants to be him!!! in msg
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"UM, i do NOT care what phone numbers you have dippy. if you
do what you say you will do, this will NEVER end. because simply
this, the more you do, the worse i get. BBQ Man (Emmutt Gulley)
explains Usenet dancing and invites Obsidian to lead, in msg ID
<bikj0t4tuuqg2t1b3hk0cu71pbnhgfetna@news-server>
"I have admitted to my possibly being a troll in this very thread."
Flagship1 of the Paranormal redefines his raison d'être in
msg ID<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Posting nude photos of children, regardless of content, is hardly
proof that I am a child molester."
St00pid, Richard Bullis, tries to justify the unjustifiable in msg ID
<pscT5.12628$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"WRONG! i am quite sane til you piss me off."
BBQ Man (Emmett Gulley) describes the anger management
skills he has developed since leaving prison, in msg ID
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"There are 20 billion people on the earth."
Dore Williamson explains how she counted herself as the
fourth member of the trinity, in msg ID
<JwAR5.6927$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
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