Linux-Advocacy Digest #134, Volume #31 Sat, 30 Dec 00 05:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: linux does NOT suck (oh yes it does) (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Global Configuration tool (WAS: Re: linux does NOT suck (oh yes it does) )
("Kyle Jacobs")
Re: Windows - Is It Really Easier to Use? ("the_blur")
Re: Windows - Is It Really Easier to Use? ("the_blur")
Re: Please don't laugh. ("[Bad-Knees]")
Re: Windows - Is It Really Easier to Use? ("Les Mikesell")
Re: An Entire Day With Linux (Yukkkkk!!!) ("Martin Eden")
Re: Operating Systems? Where would you go next? ("Tim Clarke")
Re: Linux, it is great. (Yatima)
Re: Why Advocacy? (Form@C)
Re: Could only... (Ralph Miguel Hansen)
Re: Advocacy: A Definition from Webster (Form@C)
Re: An Entire Day With Linux (Yukkkkk!!!) (John Travis)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: linux does NOT suck (oh yes it does)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 06:07:43 GMT
Kyle Jacobs wrote:
>
> Yes, standards would make this fascinating idea possible. Pity NONE exist.
>
> This is why the Windows registry shines. It's truly uniform.
You've got to be kidding. It's as uniform as the directory hierarchy
on an arbitrary hard drive.
Each Linux program has its own standards. Sufficient, and simple.
Trying to warp all programs into the same configuration format
is time-consuming, especially if the configuration items for are
not nested.
That being said, XML is pretty cool. The Registry is an organized
shit can.
------------------------------
From: "Kyle Jacobs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.microsoft.sucks
Subject: Re: Global Configuration tool (WAS: Re: linux does NOT suck (oh yes it does)
)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 06:09:51 GMT
Ah yes, "Linux is easy to use".
Alright, fine, LINUX is easy to use.
Now make ALL the programs under it easy, and then we'll talk.
"Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > "Kyle Jacobs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:ycd36.71114$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > Your pleas fall on deaf ears.
> >
> > I still have faith that somebody here thinks that it's a good idea to
make
> > Linux easy to use.
> > This method alone should be able to eliminate much of the learning curve
in
> > linux.
>
> Linux is already easy to use. Easier than Windozzzzzzz anyway,
> with its big fucking Control Panel where you can never be sure
> where to find the config item for which you're searching.
> Or is it in Network Neighborhood properties? On in Adminitrative
> Tools? Or is it only in the Resource Kit?
>
> Such a load of crap, "intuitive NT", "intuitive 2000". Yeah, intuitive
> if you're the original developers. Or should I say "innovators".
> Or should I say, "copiers".
>
> Propaganda city -- Microsoft.
>
> Chris
------------------------------
From: "the_blur" <the_blur_oc@*removespamguard*hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Windows - Is It Really Easier to Use?
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 01:21:33 -0500
> Because they learn the shell's features for automating repetitive tasks.
> Nearly
> anything done in the CLI can be automated by simply putting the same lines
> you would type into a file, and the variable parts can often be provided
> at runtime through prompting or some completely automatic operation.
>
> Les Mikesell
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Euh...yeah...I'm sure that office workers and cube drones the world over
will be thrilled when you tell them that. CLI is DEAD. Useful only for
servers and low end computing applications (programming, PINE, that kind of
telnetable crap). Real work (with the exception of simple programming)
basically requires a GUI. Also, if I'm not mistaken the kind of scripting
you're talking about is available in a GUI, you just have to use it.
------------------------------
From: "the_blur" <the_blur_oc@*removespamguard*hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Windows - Is It Really Easier to Use?
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 01:29:34 -0500
> Because the command line is FAR more powerful than point-drool-and-click.
Hmmm...is there any text-based version of photoshop/illustrator/quark.
(you realize how foolish the above seems right?)
CLI is for servers, IE: machines that serve the requests of other machines
but that humans don't have to endure. This is the kind of thinking that will
have Linux forever at 4% market share. I'm surprised people don't embrace
visual computing, it's obviously the dominant form of computing and that's
not likely to change. I think the best compromise is to have a window
manager by default with available command lines. CLI only is a BAD idea for
regular users. Why do you think 75% of people here post from windows?
------------------------------
From: "[Bad-Knees]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Please don't laugh.
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 06:38:39 -0000
There's a distro out there called smalllinux, it sucks but it runs on 1MB
ram.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skrev i en meddelelse
news:92efnv$huu$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <92ed9c$36n$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> "Adam Warner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Bonnie,
> >
> > > I'd like to look at Linux but the only pc I can play with it on is a
25
> > > Mhz 486 with 4 meg of RAM and a 170 meg hard drive. Is there a free
> > > version of Linux that'll work on this and where can I find it?
> >
> > Unless you know exactly what you are trying to achieve it's not worth
it.
> >
> > Give the group some more info about what you want to do. If you just
want to
> > route some data or play with the command line you might be OK.
> >
> > You certainly won't be able to try out X and Gnome or KDE. Well if you
did
> > get it running you'd measure response times in minutes given all the
hard
> > disk thrashing.
>
> I agree. *Maybe* if you put in a little more RAM and a bigger HD you could
> pull of running OpenWin or some similar, light weight Window Manager. But
> honestly, these days, you can build a decent computer for under $200. And
I
> really would hate for you to put Linux on that 486 as a test drive, cuz
you
> won't be impressed. If you wanna see how Linux stacks up against Windoze,
> please give it a fair chance.
>
> Btw, I LIKE old 486s, I run some command line stuff on one. Nostalgia
effect.
> So, I wouldn't laugh at that. But I don't recommend doing a comparision of
> Linux vs Windows on that machine. At least put them on similar boxes. C
> Pungent
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows - Is It Really Easier to Use?
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 06:50:06 GMT
"the_blur" <the_blur_oc@*removespamguard*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ehf36.13084$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Because they learn the shell's features for automating repetitive tasks.
> > Nearly
> > anything done in the CLI can be automated by simply putting the same
lines
> > you would type into a file, and the variable parts can often be provided
> > at runtime through prompting or some completely automatic operation.
> >
> > Les Mikesell
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Euh...yeah...I'm sure that office workers and cube drones the world over
> will be thrilled when you tell them that. CLI is DEAD. Useful only for
> servers and low end computing applications (programming, PINE, that kind
of
> telnetable crap). Real work (with the exception of simple programming)
> basically requires a GUI. Also, if I'm not mistaken the kind of scripting
> you're talking about is available in a GUI, you just have to use it.
In many cases it is, but it is generally added on as something entirely
different from interactive operation. That means that an ordinary
user would never encounter it, let alone learn to use it as a side
effect of normal operation. Also, the GUI programs tend to be
single-purpose, so scripting that involves separate steps done by
different programs means you now have to deal with many different
internal macro-language concepts, a different one for each step.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Martin Eden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: An Entire Day With Linux (Yukkkkk!!!)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 07:10:16 GMT
"John Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2000 02:51:26 GMT, "Kyle Jacobs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> :Then I used the rest of Debian.
>
> No you didn't. I am pretty sure you couldn't even figure out how to
> install it. Maybe once Woody's installer is done you can actually give it
> a try though.
Hey! Woody is going to have an installer? That's really good news! I loved
installing Caldera so many weeks ago. Just pop in the CD, answer a few
questions and go do some work for a half hour... hehehe.
>
> jt
>
> P.S. Learn to post right and snip! Oh yeah, ^PLONK^
I think I am going to plonk myself for a while from this group in a couple
of days. All this bullshit about checking headers... squawking about how
wonderful this is or how that sucks. It's lunacy.
I don't mind flame wars, and don't mind participating in them, provided they
produce some worthwhile intellectual fodder. alt.linux.sux has changed in
that regard. There used to be plenty of interesting topics cropping up. Now
it is reduced to pointless arguing over minutia that no intelligent person
could possibly care about.
The mindset on this group in insane. Linux advocacy and Linux bashing are
two arms of the same bizarre religious movement, with all logic and
proportion thrown out the window to facilitate a perception of purpose in
the otherwise empty and useless existence of the devotee.
The very notion that one can have, and enjoy the usefulness, of both
Microsoft and Unix seems to be the ultimate heresy in opposition to the
prevailing orthodoxy here. Heaven forbid anyone use (and like to use) more
than one tool depending upon the particular task he needs to accomplish.
I wonder just how long it will be before the handful of sane, thoughtful,
open-minded people who still read and sometimes participate here will depart
for good; leaving the reins in the hands of mental masturbators with too
much time on their hands.
>
> _________________________________________
> Debian GNU/Linux http://www.debian.org
> FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org
------------------------------
From: "Tim Clarke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.os.linux,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.os2.apps,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.networking.tcp-ip
Subject: Re: Operating Systems? Where would you go next?
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 08:31:34 -0000
> IBM makes GREAT hardware.
>
> There standards for software (usability and efficiency), on
> the other hand, tend to be quite low.
>
> Ever use VM/CMS?
> XEDIT
>
> Bleaaaaaaaah!
Although I tend to agree, it's one of those "cultural" things. Either you're
primarily an MVS TSO/E+ISPF user or a VM/CMS user. You get to know the tools
of you primary environment inside-out and anything dissimilar is a large
"culture shock".
Tim
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Yatima)
Subject: Re: Linux, it is great.
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:01:49 GMT
On 29 Dec 2000 18:00:25 +0100, Bruce Scott TOK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>KDE and Gnome are a waste of time for me...
>
>Is WM smaller and more flexible than fvwm/2?
Try Blackbox. Small, fast, and highly configurable. Be sure to pick up
bbpager for a desktop pager and bbkeys which will let you assign
arbitrary key bindings to various windowmanager functions (cycling
workspaces, windows, maximize etc.) as well as launching applications.
Other niceties include bbmail (like xbiff) and bbrun (lets you enter a
command to run in a pop up box w/ command history).
Blackbox homepage: http://blackbox.alug.org
Blackbox Tools: http://bbtools.thelinuxcommunity.org
There is also support for WM dockapps.
--
yatima
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Why Advocacy?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Form@C)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:19:32 GMT
J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>Hey, I get my kicks playing the straight guy around here -
>
That's cool! I can live with that.
:-)
--
Mick
Olde Nascom Computers - http://www.mixtel.co.uk
------------------------------
From: Ralph Miguel Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Could only...
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:20:18 +0100
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
eXistenZ wrote:
>
> I live in a country (Italy) where there are excesses of the opposite
> form. Recently people here got angry because someone in the parliament
> said we should have the navy shoot on the outlaws that get paid to bring
> albanian (Kurd, Serb it doesn't matter) clandestines in Italy by sea and
> then toss them offboard if they get caught.
>
> I was one of them: I think the solution is helping these people in their
> own countries (by helping them to create a solid democracy --> a solid
> economy --> jobs), so that they will not feel the urge to come over
> here.
>
> My point is, sometimes the solution is not so obvious - criminals have
> guns so we give guns to everyone, and let the shooting start.
>
>
>
> Sorry for my english - it's not what it used to be.
>
> Happy new year
>
> Marcello Barboni
>
> P.S: I too vote for the green party (Verdi - Sole che ride).
>
Well, if somebody kills these assholes, there would be no loss for the
mankind. Violence causes violence, this is a masterpiece of a dilemma and I
fear there is no solution. When the Soviet-Union crashed and cold war
stopped, I thought better times will rise...... . And look what happened
all around in the last 10-12 years! What we will get is cutting down of
civil rights and a mixture of Orwell´s 1984 and Huxley´s Brave New World
-and this is my optimistic way to see the future. I see no way to stop this
nightmare. Do you remember the 70s when anti-pollution-campaigns started?
They went on building nuclear power plants -never heard of Chernobyl-, no
thaughts of alternative power plants -there is no glasshouse effect- and
etcetera pp. And helping people in the 3rd world? Give them a place to earn
money like Bhopal in India? Look at Africa, a continent full with
intelligent and talented people, but still the chaos rules and there is no
need to claim this to the former colonialists. 50 Deutsche Mark a month
will give a child there food, education and basic medication. And we don´t
have this 50 DM to give it to a starving child! You are right, we have to
help them in their own country, not necessarily to keep them away from
Europe but necessarily for helping them to survive and for the sake of
humanity.
Good luck for 2001!
Ralph Miguel Hansen
Auf der Donau 29
45139 Essen
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Advocacy: A Definition from Webster
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Form@C)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:52:33 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in <92jqk3$kqt$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
<snip>
>would be boring for everyone to be polite. However, what I am seeing a
>lot of in here is simple "Windows sucks" "Linux sucks" "Kde sucks" "Red
>Hat sucks"......not too much intelligence and not very useful to a
>newbie looking for the *right* OS for him/her. I dunno. Thats what
>forums are for. Discussion. C Pungent
I completely agree here. It is especially true of Linux that lively
discussion should take place. Without it there would be little to push the
development along as there is no real commercial development. Slagging off
*anything* doesn't contribute (unless, of course, the criticism is accepted
as valid by the other party, in which case they may fix something!)
I'm not sure that this newsgroup would be such a good place to ask advice
on choice of OS, or anything else for that matter! The place is full of
extremists on all sides and unbiased opinion is in *very* short supply...
It *is* a good place to just see what people say about OSs before going out
and looking closer though. Don't ask specific questions - just look.
--
Mick
Olde Nascom Computers - http://www.mixtel.co.uk
------------------------------
From: John Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: An Entire Day With Linux (Yukkkkk!!!)
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:45:41 GMT
On Sat, 30 Dec 2000 07:10:16 GMT, "Martin Eden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:Hey! Woody is going to have an installer? That's really good news! I loved
:installing Caldera so many weeks ago. Just pop in the CD, answer a few
:questions and go do some work for a half hour... hehehe.
Yep, it still needs *losts* of work though. They are also concerned about
the slight rise in bug reports since potato was released. So Woody won't
be out for some time (not surprising since potato is quite young). With
the restructuring of the archives, releases should be much more frequent
in the future however.
:> P.S. Learn to post right and snip! Oh yeah, ^PLONK^
:
:I think I am going to plonk myself for a while from this group in a couple
:of days. All this bullshit about checking headers... squawking about how
:wonderful this is or how that sucks. It's lunacy.
LOL! See my post above :-). Agreed. I gues these groups serve their
purpose and keep this kind of shit out of the real help groups though, for
the most part anyway.
:I don't mind flame wars, and don't mind participating in them, provided they
:produce some worthwhile intellectual fodder. alt.linux.sux has changed in
:that regard. There used to be plenty of interesting topics cropping up. Now
:it is reduced to pointless arguing over minutia that no intelligent person
:could possibly care about.
Amen. Once the threads keep reviving themselves for eternity in
.advocacy/.sux/etc I usally feel it is time to leave.
:The mindset on this group in insane. Linux advocacy and Linux bashing are
:two arms of the same bizarre religious movement, with all logic and
:proportion thrown out the window to facilitate a perception of purpose in
:the otherwise empty and useless existence of the devotee.
:
:The very notion that one can have, and enjoy the usefulness, of both
:Microsoft and Unix seems to be the ultimate heresy in opposition to the
:prevailing orthodoxy here. Heaven forbid anyone use (and like to use) more
:than one tool depending upon the particular task he needs to accomplish.
This is why I missed your presence here Martin 8^). Certain things here
are very sad, on both sides. I like W2k as a desktop. And I have a ton
of very nice windows software. Yet anything I say about it (even if it is
actually just about the poster being a dumbass) gets asinine replies
having nothing to do with what I said. So either reading comprehension
is poor, or some idiots see my sig and think everything I have to say is a
flame against windows. The latter being quite amusing since my posts are
almost *never* about windows at all. Just about a misrepresentation of
the truth about GNU/Linux or misperception of common sense.
:I wonder just how long it will be before the handful of sane, thoughtful,
:open-minded people who still read and sometimes participate here will depart
:for good; leaving the reins in the hands of mental masturbators with too
:much time on their hands.
Not very long I imagine. My filtering has increased while my
participation has decreased (been pretty sick...therefore bored lately
though). Speaking of that does Knode support kill/watch files yet? Last
time I used it, I don't think it did. It is a little sad actually. I
kind of liked our little group. So I'll probably just try to filter out
ALL of the nonsense or leave for a while. Maybe kK will forward me his
funny flames (on all users of all Osen ;-).
jt
They are all _just_ operating systems after all...
_________________________________________
Debian GNU/Linux http://www.debian.org
FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org
------------------------------
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