Linux-Advocacy Digest #427, Volume #31 Fri, 12 Jan 01 21:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: A salutary lesson about open source ("Bobby D. Bryant")
Re: Global Configuration tool (WAS: Re: linux does NOT suck (oh yes (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: KDE Hell ("MH")
Re: Why does Win2k always fail in running time? ("Joseph T. Adams")
Re: Why does Win2k always fail in running time? ("Tom Wilson")
Re: Why does Win2k always fail in running time? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: you dumb. and lazy. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: KDE Hell (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Whistler review. ("Daniel Usmar")
Re: KDE Hell (T. Max Devlin)
Re: KDE Hell (Donovan Rebbechi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Bobby D. Bryant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A salutary lesson about open source
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:15:54 -0600
Mig wrote:
> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> > It took them 6 months to find this backdoor, with thousands of people
> > looking at the source code.
>
> And i dont think that so many developers have been working on Interbase. Or
> where did you get the thousands number?
There are two entries at SourceForge. (forked?)
o For "Interbase V6.0 Open Source SQL Database", 9 developers.
o For "Firebird", 35 developers.
The project may have been renamed, since the "Interbase" stuff tends to be
older, and the "Firebird" download kit has some files named "interbase" (albeit
with a much lower version number than the other, matching that of the whole
Firebird suite). However, I didn't spot any common names on the two developer
lists.
If you get the whole Firebird source, the *compressed* tarballs work out to
over 12 Mb. This is not counting binaries, such as *.exe and *.rpm downloads.
A very unscientific spot check in my own directories shows that development
files compress by somewhat over a 4:1 ratio, so if that is true for theirs as
well, those 35 Firebird developers have about 50 Mb of material to wade
through, an average of 1.4 Mb each.
I have a project that's about 1/3 Mb of code and support files, and even though
I wrote every line of code myself, and that within the past 13 months, and a
huge percentage of is just boilerplate GUI code anyway, that 1/3 Mb is *still*
big enough that I have trouble remembering what all is in it. (It works out to
5K lines of code and 2.5K lines of comments.)
I think five months to fathom a 1.4 Mb of someone else's code, most likely on a
part time basis, is nothing at all to be ashamed of. If it happens to scale
like mine does, that's 21K lines of code *each*.
Oh, yeah. The download pages show zero downloads for the two projects. Not
even binaries. (Die hards can get it through CVS, though.)
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
p.s. - SourceForge's "Top Downloads" list shows Back Orfice 2000 as the most
downloaded software on the site, with over 23K downloads in the past week.
Somehow that doesn't make me feel safer running closed source software.
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux,alt.microsoft.sucks,alt.linux.sucks,alt.linux.slakware
Subject: Re: Global Configuration tool (WAS: Re: linux does NOT suck (oh yes
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:29:40 GMT
Craig Kelley wrote:
>
> Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > In comp.os.linux.advocacy Donal K. Fellows <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > : Steve Mading wrote:
> > :> ANY basic is "better than Visual Basic".
> >
> > : No. There have been some truly shockingly bad BASIC variants... :^(
> >
> > Okay, that's true. But back to the original, there do exist basics
> > on Linux that are better than Visual Basic.
>
> The best part of VB is that it's married to a GUI toolkit; I don't see
> anything like it (ie, RAD) for Linux using BASIC (yet).
In any significant project (except for certain games or plotting
programs, etc.), the GUI is trivial.
The only RAD project you will ever find is a small project.
Chris
--
Flipping the Bozo bit at 400 MHz
------------------------------
From: "MH" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: KDE Hell
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:39:42 -0500
> "Donovan Rebbechi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:10:40 -0500, MH wrote:
> > >
> > >> Joe Home Developer can't afford to blow thousands on proprietary dev
> > >> tools. BTW, the Linux dev tools are very good. They're not as pretty
> > >> and slick as what's available on Windows, but they're certainly very
> > >> functional.
> > >
> > >'Joe' can purchase windows dev tools at educational prices by taking
one
> > >stinking class at a CC.
> >
> > The CC class itself is probably not that cheap (and not that convenient
> > either). People talk of Linux costing excessive amounts of time, and
> > yet one must enroll in a CC course to get a decent price on Windows dev
> > tools ?
CC classes in my neck of the woods are running < 45$ a credit hour.
Most CS classes are 3 to 4 credits. So, say 'Joe' wants to check out C++.
40 * 4 + 59 for Borland Turbo C++ suite, or, add another 30 for MSVC++ 6.
Not bad considering 16 -3 hour classes with an instructor in a computer lab
for one out of the three hours. We all know the value that a classroom
setting provides is worth much more that the $$ spent to take it.
Is 'Joe' better off spending nothing for Linux to have GCC and not taking
the class?
Joe could go Linux & take the class, but then he has to deal with GCC, and
he had better learn GDB to have a fighting chance at figuring out what is
wrong with his compiled code. Now, we are talking about a beginning student,
correct? I don't know about you, but if I'm learning C I'll take an
integrated debugger and editor in my ide in a heartbeat.
> > >Even ANSI C doesn't always port well from Linux to windows.
I have not had that many problems, but then I have not ported any apps of
consequence.
I did, however, run into two problems during a C class at a CC (of all
things) where the code was to the book using ansi IO, and even the
instructor - after taking the code home and futzing with it could not figure
out the anomalies exhibited when compiled under GCC\Linux. It ran without
fault when compiled (unaltered) with Borland Turbo C, Turbo C++ 3.0 and 4.5.
Mix PowerC, and VC5.
------------------------------
From: "Joseph T. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Win2k always fail in running time?
Date: 13 Jan 2001 01:45:16 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: "Mig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:93o1ek$leb$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
:> Well.. it sure looks like lots of the old MS faces are leaving the ship.
:> The shares are down from near 120 to under 50 in about one year... i think
:> the dumping started long ago.
: The shares will go back up. No matter what happens with the antitrust
: trial, they will go up. If they're split, existing shareholders will get
: shares in both companies, thus doubling their holdings. If they stay
: together, then confidence will remain and shares will go back up. Either
: way, this is a short term situation.
If you really believe that, then you have a great opportunity to
profit by putting your money where your mouth is.
I for one wouldn't touch Mafia$oft stock even if it were morally and
ethically permissible for me to do so. Mafia$oft has never been good
at anything except organized crime, and lately it hasn't even been
very good at that. It's only a matter of time before the financial
markets figure this out.
Joe
------------------------------
From: "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why does Win2k always fail in running time?
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:57:53 GMT
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:WAK76.1167$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:UOo76.450$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:yBm76.402$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > "Tom Wilson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:ztf76.2261$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > news:7Y076.13$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > "Donal K. Fellows" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > (Mind you, it seems that Matt is one of these strange people
that
> > > > believes
> > > > > > that writing and debugging device drivers should be easy and
> > > > > straightforward.
> > > > > > Shows what a know-nothing kid *he* is, and what a fool you are
for
> > > > rising
> > > > > to
> > > > > > his bait. :^)
> > > > >
> > > > > Not to mention that he claims to NOT be writing a device driver,
but
> > > still
> > > > > somehow manages to have his code run in kernel-mode AND claims
this
> > > should
> > > > > not crash the system if the code is faulty. ;)
> > > >
> > > > You gotta admit, a world so forgiving that your OS stays up after
your
> > > > home-brew device drivers and Explorer extension objects crap out,
> would
> > be
> > > a
> > > > wonderful place to live.
> > >
> > > The OS stays up just fine if explorer extensions fail. They're just
> > > userland DLL's.
> >
> > I sometimes manage to screw things up badly enough to require shutting
> down
> > and bringing back up Explorer. Sometimes the system remains unstable
> enough
> > to require a reboot. Especially if the DLL in question is still locked
and
> > can't be unregistered. Rebooting is actually the quickest and most sure
> > solution I've found.
>
> All you have to do is ctrl-alt-del in NT/2000 and choose logoff, then log
> back in.
I prefer rebooting. It gives me the chance to refill the coffee mug and
stretch out bit. Also, even with logging back in, it can take a few minutes
for the OS to unlock the misbehaving DLL so I can rebuild and reinstall
after a quick edit. I've noticed, though, that 2K seems to take 1/2 the time
NT4 did in that respect.
--
Tom Wilson
Sunbelt Software Solutions
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Why does Win2k always fail in running time?
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:36:35 +0100
In article <A4M76.1197$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Mig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:93o1ek$leb$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Well.. it sure looks like lots of the old MS faces are leaving the ship.
>> The shares are down from near 120 to under 50 in about one year... i think
>> the dumping started long ago.
>
> The shares will go back up. No matter what happens with the antitrust
> trial, they will go up. If they're split, existing shareholders will get
> shares in both companies, thus doubling their holdings. If they stay
> together, then confidence will remain and shares will go back up. Either
> way, this is a short term situation.
You really are deluded. Wasn't it Balmer who said they were betting the
farm on W2K? It's been a marketing disaster. Now they are betting the
farm on a games console. Microsoft have failed in any market they have
tried to enter apart from their monopoly OS and office market. The SEC
are investigating how they report their quarterly figures. They are
including earnings from investments not related to their core business.
This is not allowed. I think we can expect Microsoft to pre-announce
bad figures before they are due to try and soften the blow. Their shares
will tumble. Of course Microsoft have huge cash reserves and normally
a company in that situation would just ride the storm. I expect a large
exodus of Microsoft employees in the first half of this year and when
their share options hit the market Microsoft's shares will go into
freefall.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:54:23 +0100
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Sounds like my KDE upgrade CDROM from Mandrake.
> Just pop the CD in and select "LiveUpdate" from DrakConf, or at least
> the instructions claim..
> What they forget to mention is that your system will be rendered
> useless after the upgrade.
>
> Linux GREAT?
>
> No, I think Linux stinks.
>
>
> Flatfish
> Why do they call it a flatfish?
Grief you are pathetic. Still your fake name reminds me of a joke,
slightly modified on your behalf.
Whats the difference between flatfish++++ and a fish?
Ones smelly and full of bones and the other is a fish. :-)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: you dumb. and lazy.
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:40:30 +0100
In article <53M76.52803$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Kyle Jacobs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Alt.Linux.sux.
>
> What part of "sux" doesn't make sense to you?
>
> Some idiot cross-posted this thread (someone from COLA) and now the two
> groups are intertwined in schools of thought.
Whatever. You are still a pathetic troll. If Linux is so crap why
do you spend so much time bothering about it? If it was crap it
would just die. You are obviously scared of your future job prospects
in a world not dominated by Microsoft.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:50:53 +0100
In article <D2K76.170316$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Oopsie!
>
> I just rebuilt my 166MHz server with a 30GByte ATA66 drive and an ATA100
> controller. I reinstalled Linux Mandrake 7.2, chose some options and
> rebooted. Oh dear, we have a hung system. It won't boot, it won't continue,
> it's totally stuck. All I could do was drop out of what looked like X and
> nothing worked.
>
> This from the system is supposed to be GREAT!
>
> Reinstall!
Look Pete, you obviously are not very gifted when it comes to computers.
Why don't you post to the excellent Linux newsgroups that are meant for
people who find it difficult? Posting to cola is not the place to seek
help although many people do try and offer assistance to you. If you
won't seek help in the right newsgroups then just stick with windows.
It appears that that is all you are able to use.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux Mandrake 7.2 and the banana peel
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:58:38 +0100
In article <93o2ch$sev$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (.) writes:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> On 12 Jan 2001 21:29:07 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.) wrote:
>
>
>>>Again, I did it just to see if you were full of shit.
>>>
>>>It worked perfectly for me, first time.
>
>> Whatever makes you feel better....
>
> It doesnt make me FEEL better, claire. It is quite simply the
> truth. I didnt have any problem at all upgrading KDE. It went
> perfectly smoothly (though ummm...I didnt restart---because you
> dont HAVE to).
>
> Though I have restarted since the upgrade and everythings just
> peachy.
>
> Seriously claire, youre doing it wrong if its breaking like that.
>
> Youve already admitted repeatedly that you patently refuse to
> read instructions, and that things should be intuitive and "just
> work" the way they do in windows.
>
> Well, that explains why you break linux all the time. Seriously,
> if you arent willing to read the instructions, why use it at all?
> Surely the hamptons must offer some form of entertainment beyond
> getting frustated at linux, eh?
Living on the other side of the pond I don't know what the hamptons is
but if flatfish++++ is anything to go by there is a lot of inbreeding
going on there.
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: KDE Hell
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:00:38 GMT
Said MH in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:39:42 -0500;
[...]
>CC classes in my neck of the woods are running < 45$ a credit hour.
>Most CS classes are 3 to 4 credits. So, say 'Joe' wants to check out C++.
>40 * 4 + 59 for Borland Turbo C++ suite, or, add another 30 for MSVC++ 6.
>Not bad considering 16 -3 hour classes with an instructor in a computer lab
>for one out of the three hours. We all know the value that a classroom
>setting provides is worth much more that the $$ spent to take it.
Oh, we do?
>Is 'Joe' better off spending nothing for Linux to have GCC and not taking
>the class?
OH-yea!
>Joe could go Linux & take the class, but then he has to deal with GCC, and
>he had better learn GDB to have a fighting chance at figuring out what is
>wrong with his compiled code. Now, we are talking about a beginning student,
>correct? I don't know about you, but if I'm learning C I'll take an
>integrated debugger and editor in my ide in a heartbeat.
No, most "beginner students" (new users, they're called) start out with
shell scripts. There's no reason at all to launch yourself into
compiled code for years to come. Not with stuff like perl and python
around. Joe isn't planning on becoming a professional programmer; he
already has a job, and just wants to be able to tell his computer how to
do things without repeating himself a million times.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: "Daniel Usmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:59:00 -0000
No - honestly. Sperm is produced in the balls, but the other (90%+)
component of semen is produced elsewhere, in the prostate gland.
So. There you go.
Daniel Usmar
Department of Biological Science
University of Warwick
"Monkeyboy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, JM
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 13 Dec 2000 21:10:11 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> > (Monkeyboy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
> >
> > >In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, JM
> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Wed, 13 Dec 2000 07:06:51 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
> > >> ("Monkeyboy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >"Real computers don't do x, y or z" is a stupid argument. Computers
> > >> >are
> > >> >hardware. Hardware fails. OSs are software (yes, even ROMs).
Software
> > >> >fails.
> > >> >Accidentally (bugs) or deliberately (user). To pretend otherwise is
> > >> >not
> > >> >unlike an eunuch attempting to masturbate. Distracting but
ultimately
> > >> >futile. Nothing of any consequence will come of it (pun intended).
> > >>
> > >> Actually, eunuchs can masturbate etc, they're just jaffas.
> >
> > >And have no balls. No balls = no Monica stain.
> >
> > It's not the ball that produce it, but some gland somewhere else.
>
> Ooooohkay....
>
>
> M
>
> --
> - Sig. Space For Rent -
------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: KDE Hell
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 02:08:10 GMT
Said Donovan Rebbechi in comp.os.linux.advocacy on 12 Jan 2001 15:40:08
>On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:18:32 GMT, T. Max Devlin wrote:
>>Said [EMAIL PROTECTED] in comp.os.linux.advocacy on Tue, 09 Jan 2001
>
>>You haven't a clue of the subject as a whole. Then again, neither does
>>Roberto; he trumpets KDE because he's a big fan who stands to profit
>>from the deal.
>
>No one is paying Roberto to write KDE. You're putting the cart before
>the horse here -- he works on KDE because he likes it, not the other
>way around. (It's not as if he couldn't have worked on GNOME instead)
I've got mixed feelings about that, honestly. ;-/
>> I'm not sure why Donovan's concerned that we not confuse
>>kwm with KDE.
>
>Well, because they're different. Is that not a good enough reason ?
Yes, it is. Sorry for catching you in my blatant trolling. I *really*
would like to hear a lot more about GNOME.
>I think an important point here that a lot of people don't get is that
>one can benefit from KDE without having to run kwin (formerly kwm)
Yes, but can one benefit from KDE applications without running KDE? How
much of the silent gap between KDE and GNOME (I must presume that the
noise I hear more or less reflects development [I'm not limiting this to
newsgroup chatter]) is or is destined to become a function gap?
>> Me, I've still got a bad taste in my mouth from Windows,
>>and would just as soon avoid KDE, simply because it *is* the default, in
>>so many implementations.
>
>If you've got the time to do so, I'd recommend that you play around with
>all the available applications and Window managers and decide for yourself
>which ones you like.
Indeed. Were I a younger man, I'd relish the very prospect of doing so,
as I have on three or five occasions in the past. But I grow old and
fragile, my zeal and my patience tarnished with age, and the pressing
matters of getting rich, getting happy, and changing the world all
before I die, which will be shortly, before me. I haven't time to marvel
at the ingenuity or possibilities; just getting rid of the monopoly
crapware is all I'm going to have the stomach for, and I hope to do that
with a minimum of migration pain.
>I think you'll find some of the KDE applications pretty convincing.
That's what I'm afraid of; KDE applications will be 'pretty convincing',
and mostly in comparison to a general malaise from everywhere else.
Leaving me in scarcely better a position to benefit from competitive
development of middleware than with Microsoft.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: KDE Hell
Date: 13 Jan 2001 02:08:48 GMT
On Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:39:42 -0500, MH wrote:
>
>CC classes in my neck of the woods are running < 45$ a credit hour.
>Most CS classes are 3 to 4 credits. So, say 'Joe' wants to check out C++.
>40 * 4 + 59 for Borland Turbo C++ suite, or, add another 30 for MSVC++ 6.
So that's $229, and you haven't started buying books. Most likely,
the instructor is going to choose books that are a complete waste
of money. For that money,
you could have several good books. Let's see, you could get:
C++ How to Program
Accelerated C++
The C Programming Language
The C++ Programming Language
Effective C++
>Not bad considering 16 -3 hour classes with an instructor in a computer lab
>for one out of the three hours. We all know the value that a classroom
>setting provides is worth much more that the $$ spent to take it.
I know what value such a setting provides because I teach. Most undergrad
instructors are incompetent, especially at the weaker schools. Students
tend to learn very slowly in these classes, and learn how to regurgitate
the instructors (wrong) ideas on the exams.
>Is 'Joe' better off spending nothing for Linux to have GCC and not taking
>the class?
Joe could get gcc and take the class -- if it was worth it. I'd dispute
the value of such a thing though -- the beginner would learn more by
self-studying and lurking on comp.lang.c++
>Joe could go Linux & take the class, but then he has to deal with GCC, and
>he had better learn GDB to have a fighting chance at figuring out what is
>wrong with his compiled code.
Nonsense. Basic fact: most 1st year students don't use debuggers, largely
because they do not need them. Personally, I use debuggers for tracking
down obscure errors with dynamic memory allocation.
> Now, we are talking about a beginning student,
>correct? I don't know about you, but if I'm learning C I'll take an
>integrated debugger and editor in my ide in a heartbeat.
One also has to learn how to use the IDE. Beginners have all sorts of
problems with the IDE. For example, they have to deal with the
"disappearing console" in Borland. They have to deal with the "Crashing
operating system" with any compiler. They get confused by all the
bells and whistles. IDEs are not a silver bullet. They need to be
learned as with any environment.
If you believe that IDEs make beginners more productive, I'm going to
flatly contradict you and point out that I've taught courses and
watched students use IDEs and use emacs/gcc. There's not a substantial
difference.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
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