Linux-Advocacy Digest #934, Volume #31 Sat, 3 Feb 01 12:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: Linux is a fad? (Karel Jansens)
Re: Linux is a fad? (Karel Jansens)
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( (Karel Jansens)
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( (Karel Jansens)
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( (Karel Jansens)
Re: MS executives at LinuxWorld Expo (Craig Kelley)
Re: Linux is a fad? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: NTFS Limitations ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Linux is a fad? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( ("--====--" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>)
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( ("James Bond")
Linux Desktop looks better on Win2k :-/ ("James Bond")
Re: Linux Desktop looks better on Win2k :-/ (J Sloan)
Re: More Mandrake Fun :( (J Sloan)
Re: Best way to learn Linux? (Salvador Peralta)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is a fad?
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 15:47:04 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 Feb 2001 21:28:33 -0500, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Microcenter in my area has a whole section of the store for Linux, where do you
> >shop.
>
> Ask a sales person why the boxes are dusty and how many customers buy
> Linux programs.
> I do it all the time and the answer is always the same.
>
I do hope it's not: "Oh no! Not _you_ again!" <G>
> >I do not have any USB peripherals, when they become competitive with
> >traditional counterparts, and I have need, I will get them. The 2.4 kernel
> >seems to have very good support for USB.
>
> Competitive?
>
> Try to NOT buy a USB device and see what happens.
> For better or worse USB is the new standard.
> Of course like with most standards, Linux need not apply.
>
What I've seen in the shops, the USB-variants are always more
expensive. Not much, but enough.
> >
> >Ahem, what? Have you know idea what .dll hell is in Windows?
>
> Yep.
> Something that was a nightmare under Win95a.
>
Er, hold on. I don't know much about Windows' innards, but are you
saying that it is impossible for a badly written app to take down a
Windows system? If that is true, then why are so many people claiming
they switched to linux because of Windows' stability issues? I mean,
regardless of whether linux is actually more stable or not, those
people were not satisfied with the stability of Windows. What did they
do wrong in Windows then?
> >
> >I have yet to see a browser that I would consider good software. They all
> >crash, Windows, Linux, etc. At least in Linux, it doesn't take down the
> >machine.
>
> Sour grapes.
> Only browser that crashes under Windows is Netscape.
> Opera sucks, and if they think people will PAY for it they are stark
> raving mad.
>
It's fast, lean and the version I used a while ago looked stable to
me. The good thing about Opera is that you can try it out for nothing
more than the price of the download (which is a lot less than that of
its competitors). If it does what I want it to, and I can't get the
equivalent for free, why should I not want to pay for it?
> >This is flat out incorrect. What ever distribution you have will have a recent
> >kernel should you ever need an update. I have yet to see a Linux distribution
> >that needs a patch for ppp.
>
> Oh yea?
> Take a look in the setup groups and see how many newbies can't find
> ppp.
>
Hmmm. A newbie will most likely have KDM-ed into KDE, which would
bring them almost effordlessly to kppp (I mean, it's basically
click-click. They're usually coming from Windows, so that oughtn't be
a problem) and kppp is as easy to configure as it gets.
With the appropriate changes, the above is valid for Gnome as well, of
course.
> >> g) I can use standard applications at home and then go into any office and
> >> hey, the same things...wow......
> >
> >So do I.
>
> Doubtful.
>
> >This is a compatibility issue, not a usability issue. I have seen plenty of
> >sound cards that have a 95/98 driver but not an NT or 2K driver, or a 98/2K
> >driver, but not a 95/NT driver.
>
> >So what?
>
> There are many, many,many more that either half work under Linsux, or
> just plain don't work at all.
>
> Like most hardware.
>
"Most" is a very subjective term. Strictly speaking, for your
statement to be true, you'd have to prove somehow that more than 50%
of the available hardware is not supported in linux.
However, I do realise that that would be quite a task to put upon
anyone. So, if you like to continue this issue, would you be so kind
as to elaborate how you came to use the term "most"? Did you in fact
do some research, or might there be some - err - subjective background
noise involved? (please note that there is no intention to be
demeaning: I realise that in the issue of Windows vs linux emotions
play an important role. But it would be nice to know, of course)
> >
> >I know of several companies that are using Oracle on Linux with an apache web
> >server (also Linux).
>
> A couple of months ago Oracle was screaming foul at Linsux and how
> slow development of Linsux was going.
> Big articles in Infoworld and EWeek.
>
I sincerely doubt they were shouting, or indeed using the term
"Linsux". As to slow development, allow me to quote from the January
issue of "Linux magazine" (p. 62): "... as any good kernel hacker will
tell you, you can release software that's good, software that's
inexpensive, or software that's available on time. You can usually
release software that has two of these three attributes - but not all
three".
Besides, Oracle or whoever can shout all they want, but they cannot
influence linux quality control - and that is IMHO a good thing.
The gripping hand: regardless of it's alleged "shouting", Oracle seems
to very much stick with linux.
[snip]
>
> >In answer to your question? Smart people that can out think FUD.
>
> Smart people stick with standards, like four wheels on a car.
> They are also the ones most likely to keep their jobs.
Agreed, but it all depends on what standards are important for your
job.
Regards,
Karel Jansens
------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux is a fad?
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:08:55 +0100
No, (s)he got a bonus point: I finally got the Mandleson crack (I'm
typing this blind while still ROTFLMAO).
Does Jeepster = flatfish AKA "Claire"? They don't seem to share a
style of writing IMO.
Regards,
Karel Jansens
Gardiner Family wrote:
>
> hang on, 8 track is sometimes used by small recording studio's, so now his
> (flatfish) contribution is 0
>
> Karel Jansens wrote:
>
> > "--==<( Jeepster )>==--" wrote:
> > >
> > > and TiVo, 8-track, betamax and videtext?
> > >
> > An incarnation of Betamax is still used as a professional recording
> > system. Videotext became Teletext (or CeeFax) and is hugely popular,
> > at least in Europe. I don't follow the TiVo developments, but isn't it
> > a bit early to call it a dead duck, as you seem to imply with your
> > ill-conceived list.
> >
> > And why isn't BOB in your list? It seems like the proverbial examople
> > to me.
> >
> > But I guess you were right with 8-track. 1 out of 4 isn't actually
> > that bad for an astroturfer.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Karel Jansens
------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:27:30 +0100
Craig Kelley wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> > So today I go to shut down Mandrake 7.2 and it won't shut down
> > properly. It goes through the menues of turning things off but then
> > just goes back to the KDM login screen which blinks for a second or 2
> > and then it tries to start the X-Server, which blinks a couple of
> > times and it goes through the same routine, over and over and over
> > again.
> > Can't kill the X-server via key presses.
> > Can't login to another terminal.
> > Ctrl-Alt-Del does not work.
> > BRS time.
>
> Just give up on Linux already. You're cursed.
>
> I've been using it for 6 years now, and that's never happend to me.
>
Could it have been a keyboard-related problem (assuming for the moment
flatfish is describing a real scenario)? Everything (s)he reported
having tried was done with the keyboard. Bad contact? It still leaves
the mystery of KDM with a mind of its own...
Regards,
Karel Jansens
------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:29:08 +0100
How do you see the problem described as distribution-related?
Regards,
Karel Jansens
Gardiner Family wrote:
>
> use SuSE Linux with reiserfs, then life will be easier. Also, until you
> actually use other distro's and stop bitching like an old hen, NOW ONE
> will take you seriously as a Linux critic, instead most will view you as
> a 15 year old punk with a chip on his shoulder.
>
> Matt
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > So today I go to shut down Mandrake 7.2 and it won't shut down
> > properly. It goes through the menues of turning things off but then
> > just goes back to the KDM login screen which blinks for a second or 2
> > and then it tries to start the X-Server, which blinks a couple of
> > times and it goes through the same routine, over and over and over
> > again.
> > Can't kill the X-server via key presses.
> > Can't login to another terminal.
> > Ctrl-Alt-Del does not work.
> > BRS time.
> >
> > Next boot up entire file system is scrambled and after 5 hours of
> > churning still has not produced a working system.
> >
> > I'm going to let it churn over night and see what happens but I don't
> > expect much.
> >
> > Great system this Linux.
> > Great system indeed.
> > Great system NOT!!!!
> >
> > And before you tell me that Mandrake is NOT Linux, to me it IS Linux
> > because that is the distribution that I bought.
> >
> > Flatfish
> > Why do they call it a flatfish?
> > Remove the ++++ to reply.
------------------------------
From: Karel Jansens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:31:19 +0100
"--==<( Jeepster )>==--" wrote:
>
> Frence?
>
> Is that near Eyetally?
>
> Oh, for what it is worth, I am from England.
>
That's not a country; that's part of an island, that is. <G>
Regards,
Karel Jansens
------------------------------
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: MS executives at LinuxWorld Expo
Date: 03 Feb 2001 08:44:21 -0700
imekon@$$$REMOVE$$$.freeuk.com (Pete Goodwin) writes:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in <95aeu4$h7f$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> >Is anybody here going to Linuxworld? Anybody have any idea if the MS
> >execs are going to try to pull any sort of this FUD nonsense over there?
> >
> >http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2680345,00.html
>
> "While we are threatened by the Linux business model, where companies give
> away free software, we are not at all worried about that operating system
> from a technological standpoint," Miller told eWEEK before heading off to
> the conference. "There are no earth-shattering technological innovations in
> Linux -- actually, there's a lot less than can be found in the Windows and
> Unix platforms."
>
> Interesting.
Laughable.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux is a fad?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 15:58:27 GMT
You're an idiot.
First of all I didn't say that, you're misquoting.
Second of all I am assuming the other person meant 8 Track Cartridges
which were a fad in the 1970's that died.
So it is actually YOU whose contribution is "0"
On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 21:30:20 +1300, Gardiner Family
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>hang on, 8 track is sometimes used by small recording studio's, so now his
>(flatfish) contribution is 0
>
>Karel Jansens wrote:
>
>> "--==<( Jeepster )>==--" wrote:
>> >
>> > and TiVo, 8-track, betamax and videtext?
>> >
>> An incarnation of Betamax is still used as a professional recording
>> system. Videotext became Teletext (or CeeFax) and is hugely popular,
>> at least in Europe. I don't follow the TiVo developments, but isn't it
>> a bit early to call it a dead duck, as you seem to imply with your
>> ill-conceived list.
>>
>> And why isn't BOB in your list? It seems like the proverbial examople
>> to me.
>>
>> But I guess you were right with 8-track. 1 out of 4 isn't actually
>> that bad for an astroturfer.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Karel Jansens
Flatfish
Why do they call it a flatfish?
Remove the ++++ to reply.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: NTFS Limitations
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:57:44 +0200
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:4cVe6.8202$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> We know that NT and Linux can both be deployed in a secure
> maner to prevent most attacks under most conditions (because
> we've never seen www.microsoft.com hacked, or www.redhat.com),
> but yet there are all these thousands of defacements.
>
> Why? That's the question.
Microsoft has been hacked, and while I'm not aware of a redhat hacking,
slackware was hacked.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux is a fad?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:01:36 GMT
On 3 Feb 2001 08:44:24 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David
Steinberg) wrote:
>Grand. That would be because whoever made your scanner, printer, and
>camera wrote drivers for Windows and Mac. If the device interface was
>actually a standard, you'd see support on Linux.
>
>Hint: USB is not the device interface; it's the bus interface.
Clue. People don't care they just want their devices to work.
>Complain to the hardware manufacturer; they're the only ones who can do
>anything about it.
I'll leave that to the Penguinista's, they have been begging for years
and have gotten quite good at it.
>(Not that it matters any. If your goal was to run Linux, you would have
>bought a USB scanner, printer, and camera that were supported. Since your
>goal is obviously to invent and spread lies about Linux, your choice in
>hardware is irrelevant).
I read the reviews and bought the best products for my needs. They
just work with Win and Mac and fail with Linux.
Funny it says right on the Mandrake box that USB is supported.
>Right in front of me. Running beautifully on my hardware.
Good for you.
Flatfish
Why do they call it a flatfish?
Remove the ++++ to reply.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:07:25 GMT
On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 05:23:19 GMT, "Adam Warner"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi [EMAIL PROTECTED],
>
>I only use a text login. It sounds like you only logged out though.
>
>At a command prompt type this:
>
>shutdown -h now
>
>(In other words "shutdown and halt now")
>
>And report back on results.
>
>Regards,
>Adam
I selected shutdown from the kdm login screen.
Machine is completely hosed now. It churned overnight and is now dead.
Flatfish
Why do they call it a flatfish?
Remove the ++++ to reply.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:08:26 GMT
On 3 Feb 2001 17:13:12 +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Running the Encyclopedia Britannica, something went wrong, and my disk
>(with about 200MB free normally) filled up. The usual "your disk is getting
>full, let's clean up this mess" requester came up --- and utterly failed
>to make any more space.
>I then went in and searched for large files with the find file utility.
>Nothing showed up.
So why don't you run Britannica under Linux ?
Flatfish
Why do they call it a flatfish?
Remove the ++++ to reply.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 16:12:29 GMT
On Sat, 03 Feb 2001 21:25:27 +1300, Gardiner Family
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>use SuSE Linux with reiserfs, then life will be easier. Also, until you
>actually use other distro's and stop bitching like an old hen, NOW ONE
>will take you seriously as a Linux critic, instead most will view you as
>a 15 year old punk with a chip on his shoulder.
>
>Matt
I have tried SuSE and to be honest I haven't had anywhere near the
troubles with it that I have had with Mandrake and Redhat. I tried
Mandrake because I like the interface and install process and the Yast
drove me crazy because it kept changing things on me all the time.
I never had all of the loc ups and stuff I had with Mandrake though.
I'm waiting for the latest SuSE to come out on Feb 10th to try it.
Flatfish
Why do they call it a flatfish?
Remove the ++++ to reply.
------------------------------
From: "--==<\( Jeepster \)>==--" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:16:38 -0000
lol
"Karel Jansens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "--==<( Jeepster )>==--" wrote:
> >
> > Frence?
> >
> > Is that near Eyetally?
> >
> > Oh, for what it is worth, I am from England.
> >
> That's not a country; that's part of an island, that is. <G>
>
> Regards,
>
> Karel Jansens
>
------------------------------
From: "James Bond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:26:13 +0200
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> So today I go to shut down Mandrake 7.2 and it won't shut down properly.
> It goes through the menues of turning things off but then just goes back
> to the KDM login screen which blinks for a second or 2 and then it tries
> to start the X-Server, which blinks a couple of times and it goes
> through the same routine, over and over and over again. Can't kill the
> X-server via key presses. Can't login to another terminal. Ctrl-Alt-Del
> does not work. BRS time.
>
> Next boot up entire file system is scrambled and after 5 hours of
> churning still has not produced a working system.
>
> I'm going to let it churn over night and see what happens but I don't
> expect much.
>
> Great system this Linux. Great system indeed. Great system NOT!!!!
>
> And before you tell me that Mandrake is NOT Linux, to me it IS Linux
> because that is the distribution that I bought.
>
>
> Flatfish Why do they call it a flatfish? Remove the ++++ to reply.
Yes, sometimes KDE2 has to be forcedly closed. But, touch wood, it has
not as yet corrupted my entire system. Perhaps because I am using the
ReiserFS.
James
------------------------------
From: "James Bond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Linux Desktop looks better on Win2k :-/
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:34:55 +0200
I am now running my second box with LM7.2 remotely from my Win2k box.
Using X-WinPro (now WinaXe) I get a much improved desktop - fonts overall
just look better. And no more time wasted forever tweaking fonts.
James :-)
------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux Desktop looks better on Win2k :-/
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 17:07:16 GMT
James Bond wrote:
> I am now running my second box with LM7.2 remotely from my Win2k box.
> Using X-WinPro (now WinaXe) I get a much improved desktop - fonts overall
> just look better. And no more time wasted forever tweaking fonts.
I just installed some good fonts on my Linux system,
problem solved, no need to use a pc as a front end.
jjs
------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: More Mandrake Fun :(
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 17:09:39 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm waiting for the latest SuSE to come out on Feb 10th to try it.
That would be Feb 12th -
However I would advise you to forget about Linux
and use the windows environment which seems to
be more compatible with your personality
jjs
------------------------------
From: Salvador Peralta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Best way to learn Linux?
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 09:12:36 -0800
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Les Mikesell quoth:
> Oh - you mean all those people with 15 years experience with Windows
> 2000 shouldn't bother learning a unix-like OS too?
lol...in another 15 years, they will have gone through at least 40
marketing related os name changes, and they will tweak the system just
enough to render the $4000 certification that you got last year on the
previous version of the os, worthless.
The VALUE of an inexpensive *nixen is much greater than its cost in
dollars ( or euro :). 10 years ago, unless you were in college or in a
corporation, you couldn't even get a whiff of a unix machine. Now you
can have one with all the bells and whistles for nothing more than the
cost of pc hardware.
--
Salvador Peralta -o)
Programmer/Analyst, Webmaster / \
[EMAIL PROTECTED] _\_v
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
------------------------------
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