Linux-Advocacy Digest #215, Volume #32 Thu, 15 Feb 01 15:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: Interesting article (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Whistler/.NET will Help Linux (Bob Hauck)
Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation (Tim Hanson)
Re: Ethernet card for UNIX/Linux (John Travis)
Re: Windows ME doesn't BSOD on me ("Spicerun")
Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation (Mig)
Joke of the day - from Microsoft (Ronald F. Guilmette)
Re: The Windows guy. (Aaron Kulkis)
Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation (Robert Nicholson)
Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation (Robert Nicholson)
Re: KDE Whiners (Mig)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Interesting article
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:40:25 GMT
Said Mike Byrns in alt.destroy.microsoft on Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:32:24
>"Giuliano Colla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> >
>> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>> > Dave Martel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > >On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 05:21:41 GMT, "Mike Byrns"
>> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >>"Dave Martel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> > >>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> > >>> On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:11:39 GMT, "Mike Byrns"
>> > >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> > Linux implementations
>> > >>> >are by definition "amateur" as they are done as a pastime rather
>than as
>> > >>a
>> > >>> >profession.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Then what's it say about MS's so-called "professional" programmers,
>> > >>> that these "amateur" linux programmers stole 30% of MS's Server
>> > >>> market? <chortle!>
>> > >>
>> > >>First of all it "says" nothing because it's patently untrue.
>> > >
>> > >Rubbish. I got the number from your own source (IDC).
>> > >
>> > He seems to be selective about what numbers he will accept from IDC.
>> >
>> > >>There are two
>> > >>server markets -- WWW and LAN/Applications. January 2001 Netcraft
>report
>> > >>says
>> > >
>> > >That's it, keep subdividing the issue until you can find some sliver
>> > >where MS actually shows some growth.
>> > >
>> > The Sock Puppets do that every time M$ hands them a new press
>> > release.
>> >
>> > I do not know yet if mike.byrns is one or not but he does show
>> > tendencies.
>> >
>> > >>This is particularly interesting since web serving was a completely
>UNIX
>> > >>market in the beginning. Microsoft was a latecomer to the party.
>> > >>Microsoft's only been playing the web game in earnest since IIS3.0
>> > >>introduced ASP in late 1997. See
>> > >>http://windowsitlibrary.com/Content/435/11/1.html. So if you really
>want to
>> > >>talk about who stole who's market I think you need to do your history
>> > >>homework :-)
>> > >
>> > >"Of course the increase was dramatic: It's easy to make big gains when
>> > >you're starting from scratch." ;->
>> > >
>> > Mike does it disturb you when your own mantra comes back to bite you
>?
>> >
>> > >>If you dig a little deeper into the Netcraft site you'll find that
>most of
>> > >>the big names are running Apache on Solaris or IIS on NT/2000. As a
>> > >>platform/server combo Windows beats the pants off Apache on Linux.
>> > >
>> > >Actually I never noticed any Netcraft breakdowns by operating system,
>> > >though I can't imagine why they wouldn't have one. Do you have a URL?
>> > >
>> > They sell reports like that for hefty change. Its how they support
>> > themselves.
>> >
>> > Mike has good connections it seems.
>> >
>> > Of course he knows we have no chance to check whatever he says but
>> > remember how he quotes IDC selectively and ignores the number he
>> > doesn't like.
>> >
>> > >>On the LAN/Applications server front the truth is even more in
>contrast to
>> > >>your statements. NT usage has increased pretty steadily since it's
>> > >>introduction. Linux' gains have come principally at the expense of
>Netware
>> > >>and commercial Unices.
>> > >
>> > >It doesn't matter where the gains came from, that's still market share
>> > >that "written-by-amateurs" linux took and Microsoft didn't.
>> > >
>> > Good point Dave although I still think he is making that part about
>> > only being from Unix and Novell up.
>> >
>> > >>"First up is Linux, which International Data Corporation (IDC) says
>captured
>> > >>24 percent of the server market in 1999, a dramatic increase over the
>> > >>previous year. Of course the increase was dramatic: It's easy to make
>big
>> > >>gains when you're starting from scratch. Linux advocates note that the
>> > >>market share for NT remained steady at 38 percent last year, the first
>time
>> > >>its share didn't rise. But does that figure really represent a loss
>for
>> > >>Windows, or does it simply indicate market maturation?
>> > >
>> > >The server market wasn't "mature" if there was room for a competing OS
>> > >to expand to 24% while NT just sat there and stagnated for two years.
>> > >
>> > >>What Linux backers won't tell
>> > >>you is that IDC, which produced these figures, believes that Windows
>2000
>> > >>(the next version of NT), not Linux, will dominate the server market
>by
>> > >>2003.
>> > >
>> > >Heck, NT dominated in 1999 (NT 38%, Linux 25%, Netware 19%, Unix 15%).
>> > >2003 is still too close for _any_ OS to overcome that kind of
>> > >head-start combined with MS's marketing clout. Try looking a little
>> > >farther down the road, say about 2005-2008.
>> > >
>> > That is not what the CEO of IBM said they told him:
>> >
>> > According to IDC, Linux is he fastest growing operating system at 28
>> > percent; Windows is at 21.4 percent. Linux will have 38 percent of the
>> > market by the year 2004 -- and will be the largest operating system in
>> > the server environment that year. And that is one of the reasons why
>> > IBM got behind Linux: these adoption rates were so impressive. They are
>> > a phenomenally powerful statement. It's growth is huge. Its momentum is
>> > building. Its like the Internet: it is moving that fast.
>> > Sam Palmisano IBM president and CEO at LinuxWorld 2001
>> > http://www.ibm.com/news/2001/02/conference_trans.phtml
>> >
>> > See what I mean about mike.byrns spouting numbers that do not seem
>to
>> > come from where he claims ?
>> >
>>
>> To put it bluntly, Mike's numbers appear to come out from the wrong
>> orifice. (Wrong as far as numbers are concerned, I mean)
>
>The numbers had links that were free for you to go to. If you choose to
>ignore or refute them that's fine with me. This group is a waste of time
>anyway.
Does this mean you'll go away now and stop bothering us with your sock
puppet act?
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Whistler/.NET will Help Linux
Reply-To: hauck[at]codem{dot}com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:46:00 GMT
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:41:10 -0600, Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:06:22 -0600, Erik Funkenbusch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>wrote:
>> > Yes, MS has a lot of dreams for what they would like to do, but I
>> > doubt even half of them will become reality. That doesn't mean .NET
>> > won't be useful and quite popular.
>> This time even Winvocates are hoping that some of the dreams _don't_
>> come true.
> This time? I didn't agree with Windows 3.x (I was an Amiga and OS/2
> user until Win95). I didn't agree with MS Bob. I prefer Quicken over
> MS Money.
I think .NET is more akin to "Cairo" than to MS Bob or Money. In terms
of it's intended scope and effect on the market.
>I haven't agreed with a lot of what MS does,
You couldn't prove it by your posts here. Since I became aware of your
existence on comp.os.os2.advocacy four or five years ago, I cannot think
of any post of yours where you admitted that MS had made a mistake or
done anything less than ethical. It is certainly not a common thing.
> and I recognize that only about half of what they hype ever comes to
> be (mainly because they start hyping it way before they even have a
> solid implementation and figure out later that it doesn't work well
> the way they intended).
Until now...write it down. Funkenbush acknowledges that MS hypes things
before they have an implementation. You're making progress.
What you just wrote is exactly why I am so skeptical of .NET. Even MS
executives can't clearly articulate what it is, and what they have
articulated sounds incompletely thought through.
>The market will speak on this. MS can't force people.
Indeed. If they aren't careful, they could blow off the whole foot this
time too. The market has changed and MS doesn't have the developer
mindshare they used to have. They've always relied on that to pull them
through when they announce these initiatives but they've managed to use
up nearly all of their credibility this time around. Making statements
about using .NET to enforce licensing and content restrictions isn't
doing them any good either. That's the kind of thing an company that's
out of touch with their customers does, because it will please some of
their business partners and satisfy internal goals. It is almost worthy
of the "old" IBM.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Codem Systems, Inc.
-| http://www.codem.com/
------------------------------
From: Tim Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:46:55 GMT
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:96h6sc$oh6$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Bob Tennent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-4825719-RHAT.html?tag=ltnc
> >
> > > Poor Microsoft! They're running to the government to protect their
> business
> > > model against those property-stealing anti-American open-sourcers.
> Boo-hoo-hoo!
> >
> > Indeed. With every move by that bloated behemoth, they make themselves
> look
> > more and more like spoiled little children.
> >
> > Erik? Comments?
>
> Well, I don't particular agree with his comments in particular, though he
> does have a partial point. Open Source does threaten commercial software
> innovation. Why should a company (not just MS) invest millions into R&D
> when open source peoplewill come along and offer a free version?
It certainly threatens Microsoft's model of selling proprietary code and
earning 80% profit margins from it, that's for sure. It threatens
Microsoft's hold on the choke points, where everyone else has to ask
permission from Microsoft to innovate. While it does threaten
commercial proprietary software sales, software innovation is alive and
well.
> On a side note, why is it that the words of one man are always taken as the
> official word of MS? When Jim Clark sent a letter to MS begging them to buy
> Netscape, Barksdale dismissed it as not being an official statement of the
> company, yet he was the president, not just a VP as Alchin is.
except when that one person is Microsoft Corp.'s Windows
operating-system chief in a press release.
--
"One basic notion underlying Usenet is that it is a cooperative."
Having been on USENET for going on ten years, I disagree with this.
The basic notion underlying USENET is the flame.
-- Chuq Von Rospach
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Travis)
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: Ethernet card for UNIX/Linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:33:42 GMT
And mmnnoo spoke unto the masses...
:I think it's ironic that you would suggest the RTL 8139. The linux
:driver is broken! (Or maybe it's the hardware, I don't know).
:Anyways, it periodically (about every 20 days for me on
:average) completely ceases to function. If it's a module
:you can rmmod it and then re-enable it to get it working.
:This is a major pain on my home server because I normally
:have only network access (through the 8139 card) to it.
:I have two of these cards and have had this problem
:with both under linux. I am not the only one, either... a
:web search shows that others have the exact same problem.
Let me guess, your using the driver from the 2.2 kernels? Don't do that :-). I
haven't had any such problems. I've only run the card with the 2.4 betas and
above. But if you looked carefully, the one I was really pushing was the 8029,
which didn't have problems under any kernel. I also know that _when_ GNU/Linux
gets on that machine it will be running the 2.4X line, so the 8139 issue was
moot. But he went with the other common suggestion, the 3Com, another good
card 8^).
jt
ps I don't think the 8139C has really been tested yet with the new drivers
--
Debian Gnu/Linux [Sid]
2.4.1|XFree4.0.2|Nvidia .95 drivers
You mean there's a stable tree?
------------------------------
From: "Spicerun" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Windows ME doesn't BSOD on me
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:51:22 GMT
True. Windows ME doesn't BSOD on me. It just locks up tighter than a drum
where I have to *unplug* the machine and plug it back in to get it to
boot back up.
------------------------------
From: Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:49:12 +0100
Tim Hanson wrote:
> I wonder if anyone is actually listening to that drivel. They ought to
> get together with the KDE team!
OK... now i've got it . youre the Gnome equivalent of flatfish.
Now we just miss someone like you two from 1) KDE 2) XFCE 3) WindowMaker
4) Enlightenment 5) Blackbox 6) The rest
You can call your team 7 idiots and a fish
--
Cheers
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ronald F. Guilmette)
Subject: Joke of the day - from Microsoft
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:58:58 -0000
Joke of the day:
``Free software is evil'' sez Microsoft.
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-4833927.html?tag=mn_hd
Some choice quotes:
``Companies that use Linux in their products then must pay someone else
for support, {Allchin} said''
(In this context, ``someone else'' apparently means somebody other than
Microsoft.)
``"We can build a better product than Linux," {Allchin} said.
(Note: No date was given for when, if ever, such a product might actually
be developed and/or sold by Microsoft.)
------------------------------
From: Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The Windows guy.
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:01:34 -0500
A transfinite number of monkeys wrote:
>
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:38:29 -0500, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : He is working on a Linux web server. He wants to do a global replace in VI. I
> : tell him to use sed. He whines a bit, then tries it. I hear from his cube.
> : "Sweet!"
>
> Why bother leaving vi to do something that simple?
>
> :%s/find-expression/replace-expression/g
Opening the eyes of the LoseAdmin to the power of NON-interactive
tools such as stream editing is much more....satisfying.
>
> --
> Jason Costomiris <>< | Technologist, geek, human.
> jcostom {at} jasons {dot} org | http://www.jasons.org/
> Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
> My account, My opinions.
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
------------------------------
From: Robert Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation
Date: 15 Feb 2001 12:06:40 -0800
It must be so great to be Linus and go to bed at night and know all the
time that Microsoft are getting more scared by the day. That would be my
Ego wonders of good.
Brian Langenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Bob Tennent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-4825719-RHAT.html?tag=ltnc
>
> : Poor Microsoft! They're running to the government to protect their business
> : model against those property-stealing anti-American open-sourcers. Boo-hoo-hoo!
>
> This one's actually quite funny. I like the choice of words:
>
> ''I can't imagine something that could be worse than this for the software
> business and the intellectual-property business.''
>
> Notice it doesn't say "nothing could be worse than this for software
> quality". Nor does it say, "nothing could be worse than this for
> software users". Undoubtedly a free software movement is bad for
> Microsoft's upgrade treadmill, but they don't come right out and say it.
>
> Microsoft has spent its corporate lifetime convincing people that
> software is something that should be bought and paid for, so it's
> not surprising that they would be threatened by a movement so
> similar to what they displaced all those years ago.
------------------------------
From: Robert Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft says Linux threatens innovation
Date: 15 Feb 2001 12:07:47 -0800
Microsoft is asking the government to protect competition by outlawing
open source. Kind of ironic.
------------------------------
From: Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE Whiners
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:03:11 +0100
A transfinite number of monkeys wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:12:40 +0100, Mig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : Weird.... for me it looks like Ximian trus to sell a modified Gnome with
> : some extra apps. Allways saw Gnome as the possible alternative to KDE in
> : the distant future and not Ximian.
>
> You're under no obligation to buy anything from Ximian. You can download
> *everything* that goes onto their CDs from their FTP site. Yet, this
> still
> seems to upset you somehow. Do you also get mad at RedHat for selling
> CDs of their distribution? How about BSDI/Walnut Creek for having the
> audacity to sell FreeBSD CD's?
Im not upset by anything else then the avertising and that issue is
cleared... so im NOT upset at all at the moment.
I welcome commercialism in Linux and the BSD's since i believe that the
quality and diversity of products will increase and i am willing to pay for
it.. actually i have spent much more on Linux software and Linux
distributions then on Microsoft software
What irritates me is that Gnomers allways have given the impression that
commercialism was bad and when suddenly one of their conmmercial entityes
goes on attack on free project they welcome it. So i dont have much to say
anymore about Ximian - thats cleared to everybodys satisfactiuon- but
solely about the biggotery and attitude of the light brigade of Gnome loud
voicers like Tim Hanson and a few others
> : Chorus of whinning?? No.. just complaining about the methods used and
> : with the desired result.
>
> The KDE people act as if it was some sort of sneaky trick.. Sheesh. You
> know, Cisco should stop advertising in Network World, since there might
> be people who get the magazine looking for info on Juniper or Nortel.
> Seeing a Cisco ad might make them upset. Sheesh. Grow up.
BS . this is absolutely not the same... compare it to let cigarret
comapnys advertise when searching for lung cancer.
> : Weird that gnomers talk about whining when they wihinned about licence
> : issues for years.
>
> Apples to apples, please? One issue has to do with some people getting
> their shorts in a knot over someone's small, unobtrusive ad. The other
> does with creating "free" software that *depends* on software that was
> not even close to free.
Most of us never had any problem.. if you had you had the choice to not
install any of it.
--
Cheers
------------------------------
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