Linux-Advocacy Digest #572, Volume #32 Thu, 1 Mar 01 02:13:05 EST
Contents:
Re: why open source software is better (Peter Seebach)
Re: why open source software is better ("Les Mikesell")
Re: [OT] .sig (Michael Powe)
Re: [OT] .sig (Michael Powe)
Re: A question for a user who wants to jump the M$ ship ("Flacco")
Re: Mircosoft Tax (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: A question for a user who wants to jump the M$ ship ("Flacco")
Re: A question for a user who wants to jump the M$ ship ("Flacco")
Re: Breaking into the Unix field: FreeBSD vs Linux (RH7) (Dinsdale)
Re: I say we BAN "Innovation" ("Flacco")
a little Ms humor (Glitch)
Re: Is StarOffice 5.2 "compatible" w/MS Office 97/2000? (Richard L. Hamilton)
Re: A question for a user who wants to jump the M$ ship (J Sloan)
Re: KDE Giant Killer? (Ray Chason)
Re: Kulkis: please trim the sig (Ray Chason)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: why open source software is better
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Seebach)
Date: 01 Mar 2001 06:13:46 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Bob Hauck <bobh = haucks dot org> wrote:
>On 01 Mar 2001 02:31:40 GMT, Peter Seebach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> all I want is something that can import my existing data, reconciles
>> okay, and doesn't corrupt data. (The last clause rules out Quicken
>> 2001 for Mac,
><http://www.moneydance.com/>
I looked into this, but the version I tried crashed the moment I tried
to start it on my Mac. :(
-s
--
Copyright 2001, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter. Boycott Spamazon!
Consulting & Computers: http://www.plethora.net/
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: why open source software is better
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:18:21 GMT
"vrml3d.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:97joc1$t53$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Les Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:Lo8n6.4637$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > > The subject line for this message should be "why open source
software
> > > > is better for the *customer*".
> > >
> > > No, it should be "why open source software is better for the customer
in
> > the
> > > short run". Anything that drives producers out of the market in the
> long
> > > run is bad for consumers in the long run, business cycles not
> > withstanding.
> >
> > The only producers that open source can drive out of the market are the
> > ones who do not have a better product or service or are charging more
> > than it is worth.
>
> Not true (see below)
Of course it is true. If you create a product that fills a need at a price
less
than the value it provides above similar products you aren't going to be
driven out of any market that allows competition.
> There is no evidence for any illegal anti-competitive
> > activity by any open source producer
>
> Ahem... government employees who produce software in the course of their
> daily work are *legally* obligated to place that work in the public
domain.
How odd then, that NCSA Mosaic source code didn't enter the public
domain but was instead brokered through a third party on its way
to becoming Internet Explorer so another company could make loud
noises about innovation...
> Any government employee who contributes to a GPL'd project is technicly
> violating the law. That's anticompetitive in my book. I don't think it
> will be too hard to find *somebody* to testify that this is happening.
I don't see how that follows. There is no restriction against incorporating
public domain code into GPL'd projects. The whole concept of public
domain implies a lack of any such restrictions.
> and no illegal bundling of
> > products.
> >
> > > Anecdotal evidence suggests a serious decline in shareware
applications,
> > > with open source an obvious culprit. Fewer apps, fewer choices.
Sorry
> I
> > > don't have numbers to back it up. That's why it's only anecdotal.
> >
> > If anything, that is evidence that these products had no particular
value
> > compared to the alternatives.
>
> There are at least two ways for producers to be driven out of the market.
> 1. their product is inferior, or had no value as you imply. 2. those
who
> would enter the market look at the conditions and decide it is not worth
> enterring.
Yes, if you can't add value above what is already available or deliver
it at a lower price, you probably should be doing something else.
> If you go back to Win3.x days, with OSS generally unknown to just about
> everybody, there were strong incentives to enter the market, and many did.
Now wait a minute. You can't make a case about anything based on the
ignorance of Windows users. There was in fact plenty of OSS around
long before any MS Windows product.
> If you look at the market now, I can't think of many compelling reasons to
> enter and OSS is a primary factor.
Windows had a market because it undercut the price on the unix
workstations of the time. Why was that OK, if the reverse
isn't?
> Even established vendors like Oracle are
> struggling now, and I don't think you can blame this on Oracle being an
> inferior product. The pressure is partly from the economy, but PostGre
and
> MySQL are certainly playing a part.
The added value must be more than the selling price. There are things
PostgresSQL and MySQL don't do well, but not everyone needs them.
> From an economic standpoint, give me one good reason why I would want to
> write a DB server (as a pure software sales play, none of this "we sell
> support" BS) under these market conditions.
Give me a good reason why you think writing yet another DB server would
be an innovation now, or why it would provide added value compared
to the existing ones. If you can't, then why do you think it would be
good for anyone for you to write one regardless of the price of the
competition?
> As the Clinton administration demonstrated, socialists can coast for quite
> some time on the works done in previous years, but it eventually catches
up
> to them. Raiding the rich is always an attractive prospect in the short
> run, but then eventually there are no more rich left to raid and people
get
> disgusted. It took Russia about 70 years to get to that point, VietNam 25
> years, and North Korea still hasn't figured it out.
Is this supposed to imply that you think there is no current work being
done in OSS? If so, you must be living in some other universe. Watch
http://www.freshmeat.net for a few days, or poke around
http://www.sourceforge.net.
> I give the OSS fad about 20 years to get to the point where the lack of
> fresh new applications becomes such a burden to consumers that they begin
to
> thumb their noses at free software. You'll see articles in the tech mags
> saying things like "the shrink-wrapped box is back".
Shrink-wrapped software hasn't gone away, and it won't in any case where
it provides something that no one is willing to do for free. But, if
hardware prices keep dropping you will see many more bundled
'appliances' where the software is specialized and bundled for
a specific task instead of paying separately for software as an
item on its own.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Michael Powe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: [OT] .sig
Date: 28 Feb 2001 21:25:26 -0800
>>>>> "Aaron" == Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Aaron> Joona I Palaste wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> scribbled the
>> following on comp.lang.c:
>> > Aaron Kulkis wrote:
>> >> Peter Pichler wrote:
>> >> > >> and as such has a God-given Right to do whatever the >>
>> > >> hell he likes (e.g. appending 1708 bytes of yahoo rant to
>> all >> > >> his Usenet postings), however annoying and
>> inconvenient it may >> > >> be for the rest of us.
>> >> > >And not only that, but I serve in the military to defend
>> >> > >that right.
>> >> > You must be /realy/ proud.
>> >> Are you trying to imply that defending your country is
>> somehow >> an ignoble thing to do?
>> > No, he's trying to imply that being a complete bozo is an
>> ignoble thing > to do. Learn to read for comprehension.
>> And by the way, Aaron - "defending your country" does not
>> qualify as a reason.
Aaron> What part of United States Army do you not understand?
Aaron> The US Army defends the US Constitution, which secures my
Aaron> right, by virtue of being in the US, to say anything I damn
Aaron> well please on USENET or any other place.
While it's deeply shaming to have such as Mr. Kulkis performing his
routine as the "ugly American" before an international audience, I
would like to point out a couple things. First, we have no true
knowledge that Mr. Kulkis ever served in the Armed Forces of the
United States. Considering his demonstrated lack of honor, I for one
see no reason to take him at his word about anything -- whether that
anything be his claim to be a member of the US Army or his claim to be
a "Unix Systems Engineer." Even had he served, wouldn't it seem more
than likely that he got "section 8" (discharged as mentally unfit for
duty)? Please do not take him as indicative of the membership of the
Armed Forces. I've worked with many veterans, including combat
veterans, and I've never had the misfortune to work with somebody as
ridiculous as this person. One of my current coworkers is an
ex-Ranger (US Army Airborne), and he is one of the most friendly and
helpful people you could have on the job with you.
Second, as my grandpa used to say, "them what talks about it ain't
doin' it." The more Mr. Kulkis talks about "defending" his country,
the more convinced I am he has never done any such thing. In fact, a
little contemplation of current events will recall to everyone that
our country has not been threatened militarily in many decades.
Unless Mr. Kulkis is in his dotage, he has never served in combat to
"defend" the United States. Although, perhaps he took part in the
"turkey shoot" in Iraq 10 years ago, shooting fleeing civilians in the
back; or subsequently bulldozing the wounded into trenches and burying
them alive. That does not qualify as "defending" the United States in
any way.
You can lead a fool to an idea, but you can't make him think. Give
the guy a wide berth and at least some of the pity he deserves. He's
probably as big a loser in the real world as he is in the virtual
one.
mp
--
Man has sold his soul for time, language, tools, weapons, and
dominance. And to make sure he doesn't get out of line, these
invaders keep an occupying garrison in his nondominant brain
hemisphere. -- William Burroughs
------------------------------
From: Michael Powe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: [OT] .sig
Date: 28 Feb 2001 21:34:31 -0800
>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Heathfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Richard> Brent R wrote:
>> Mathew Hendry wrote:
>> > On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:35:36 +0000, "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > >>>When was the last time you crawled under machine-gun fire,
>> seeing the > >>>tracers flying literally within arm's reach of >>
your head?
>> > >> I didn't know they were still using agent orange over
>> there.
>> > >Agent orange is still in widespread use as a weedkiller (a
>> plant > >biologist informed me of this). I can't remember its
>> name though.
>> > >Just out of intrest, what do tracer bullits have to do with
>> weed killer?
>> > >I really can't figure that out.
>> > IIRC agent orange has some unpleasant side-effects on fetal
>> development, > including limbs appearing in the wrong place (or
>> not at all).
>> No, I'm think that Agent Orange is a MAJOR carcinogen. All I
>> know is that vets were feeling the effects relatively shortly
>> after being exposed to it.
Richard> They use veterinary surgeons in war zones?
Richard> How true it is that one learns something new every day.
;-) I'm glad to see you recovered your sense of humor -- oh wait,
that's humour! You kinda lost it there for a while.
mp
--
------------------------------
From: "Flacco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject: Re: A question for a user who wants to jump the M$ ship
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:12:41 -0500
> Perhaps linux users should try petitioning the authors of all apps they
need
> as surely companies won't throw away the opportunity to sell linux
versions
> if they know there is enough demand for them?
Precisely because many of the apps that Windows migrants want are made by
Microsoft, which would rather chew off its own leg than do something that
enhances Linux.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Mircosoft Tax
Date: 1 Mar 2001 06:27:58 GMT
On Thu, 01 Mar 2001 04:38:18 GMT, Brent Pathakis wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote: ----snip---- You're referring to the price of an
>upgrade...
No, I am not.
> the full version is about
>$180.
That's the boxed version, not OEM.
> The way most people by OS's is pre-insstalled on a new system.
Therefore the OEM prices are applicable for most sales.
>Bought that way, the price is a higher than than $180, and a lot higher than
>the $50 you quoted..
No, it is not. Search pricewatch for pricing on OEM versions. (Note that an OEM
version *cannot* be an upgrade, and "OEM upgrade version" is an oxymoron.)
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: "Flacco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject: Re: A question for a user who wants to jump the M$ ship
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:14:44 -0500
> : Good luck. I brought this up recently and was basically told I was a
pussy
> : and/or moron for not writing out my web pages long-hand. Die-hard Linux
> : users seem unwilling to admit that casual users may want a graphical
design
> : tool to build web pages, integrated with site management tools.
>
> Websphere Homepage Builder -- for both Linux and Windows:
>
> http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/hpbuilder
Requires WINE.
------------------------------
From: "Flacco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: A question for a user who wants to jump the M$ ship
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:17:45 -0500
> > * Rational Rose
>
> ??? never heard of it but there are plenty of free high
> quality databases for Linux. And if you want to spend some
> serious money, Oracle and DB2.
Rose is a UML modeling tool.
------------------------------
From: $[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dinsdale)
Crossposted-To:
comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,alt.unix.alt.unix.geeks,comp.unix.sys5,comp.unix.sys5.r4,comp.unix.solaris,alt.solaris.x86,comp.unix.aix,csu.unix.aix,comp.unix.sco,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Breaking into the Unix field: FreeBSD vs Linux (RH7)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 06:33:47 +0000 (UTC)
Reply-To: $[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:27:34 GMT, Sphinx367 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I'm going to begin familiarizing myself w/Unix to ultimately become a Unix
>system administrator. I've got copies of FreeBSD 4.4 (&Lite) and Linux
>RedHat 7. I'd like to get some advice on a strategy to take to get into the
>Unix Administration field.
>
Learn to admin machines, i.e. learn how things work, how they break
and how to fix the wreckage.
>Does anyone have any opinion/documentation on whether focusing on FreeBSD
>would be better than studying Linux (RH or other form)? I'm interested in
>focusing on Unix-oriented info that's applicable to the largest number of
>Unix-like OSes, since there are so many of them out there.
They all suck in different ways, try to learn a few, but learning
the usage of the common tools is more important than learning the
specifics of a particular linux or bsd dist.
>
>Would it be a smart move to master the command-line commands, and then worry
>about the GUIs later?
How about worry about the guis NEVER. That would be the intelligent
choice. If you want to click on things all day long stick with ms.
>
>Are the commands in Linux pretty much the same as in other Unix systems,
>like FreeBSD, Solaris, SVR4, SCO and AIX?
The commands in the *nix world are individual programs, the majority
of these programs are common across platforms.
>
>Any help/advice/websites would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
>
http://www.freebsd.org, http://www.linuxdoc.org, http://bsdnerds.com,
http://www.speedygrl.com/nix.html she has about as good of a collection
of nix links as anyone, saves regurgitation.
regards and good luck
--
reply to domain piranhabrothers dot org
username dinsdale
------------------------------
From: "Flacco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: I say we BAN "Innovation"
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:22:03 -0500
> there is also "my" and/or "your".
>
> Your@ware, Your Gateway, My Yahoo, My Rio, etc..
Yep, I can't stand that crap.
Just like the local weatherman saying "And now, here's your weather." Since
when?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 01:54:32 -0500
From: Glitch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: a little Ms humor
Did you hear about the new bug that MS created?
It is even making buildings in Seattle crash on people.
(in reference to the recent earthquake for those who don't know about
current events)
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard L. Hamilton)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy,alt.solaris.x86,comp.unix.solaris
Subject: Re: Is StarOffice 5.2 "compatible" w/MS Office 97/2000?
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:50:58 -0000
In article <97jnqc$9b2$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Igor Sobrado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> In alt.solaris.x86 Bryant Charleston, MCSE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> If you compose a text document in Star Office 5.2, will it be readable on a
>> Windows platform (as a text or Word doc) ? I can't seem to find any FAQs
>> that address this issue. Thanks for any help!
>
> You will probably have more luck importing and exporting documents
> between StarOffice and MS Office than between MS Office and MS Office.
>
> We had no problems importing documents from different releases of
> MS Office into StarOffice nor exporting to "it".
It won't handle files from older versions of PowerPoint, although
it seems to handle the current version ok; one time I ran into that,
I re-saved it using a newer version of PowerPoint, and the modified
file would then load into StarOffice just fine. That's the only thing
I've seen any significant number of examples of that just wouldn't load.
--
ftp> get |fortune
377 I/O error: smart remark generator failed
Bogonics: the primary language inside the Beltway
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.smart.net/~rlhamil
------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject: Re: A question for a user who wants to jump the M$ ship
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:51:09 GMT
Flacco wrote:
> > : Good luck. I brought this up recently and was basically told I was a
> pussy
> > : and/or moron for not writing out my web pages long-hand. Die-hard Linux
> > : users seem unwilling to admit that casual users may want a graphical
> design
> > : tool to build web pages, integrated with site management tools.
> >
> > Websphere Homepage Builder -- for both Linux and Windows:
> >
> > http://www-4.ibm.com/software/webservers/hpbuilder
>
> Requires WINE.
Yeah, that's kinda nasty - I complained about that to them
at Linuxworld and they said it's a temporary kludge, they
fully intend to do a native port, but this was just a quick way
to get it up and running on Linux for now.
jjs
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE Giant Killer?
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:55:47 -0000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (anchorite) wrote:
>Green as grass after a spring sgower in linux but I had no problems
>with making KDE do everything I wanted.
>Now if the pppd was as easy.....and Lucents drivers would work on my
>ol dell.
You couldn't set up Kppp? If you have KDE 2.x, it's in the K menu:
K|Internet|Internet Dialer.
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
From: Ray Chason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Kulkis: please trim the sig
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:04:46 -0000
Brent R <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Where's meow?
Keeping Kooklis company in my killfile. Now, why did you repost an
entire Kooklis rant just to post this one line?
--
--------------===============<[ Ray Chason ]>===============--------------
PGP public key at http://www.smart.net/~rchason/pubkey.asc
Delenda est Windoze
------------------------------
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