Linux-Advocacy Digest #652, Volume #32 Mon, 5 Mar 01 09:13:04 EST
Contents:
Re: definition of "free" for N-millionth time (mlw)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?=)
Re: What do I do with a Windows partition? (Marc Richter)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (pip)
Re: definition of "free" for N-millionth time (Ian Davey)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (pip)
Re: Crimosoft will get off scot-free (SoneoneElse)
Re: definition of "free" for N-millionth time (Isaac)
Re: KDE or GNOME? (Jakob Kosowski)
Re: GPL Like patents. ("Les Mikesell")
Re: Windoze Domination/Damnation (Nick Condon)
Re: Windoze Domination/Damnation (Nick Condon)
Re: Another Linux "Oopsie"! ("Gary Hallock")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: definition of "free" for N-millionth time
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:03:18 -0500
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
> mlw wrote:
> >
> > Ken Arromdee wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > > mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >In the GPL world, a person can share code with the world. Anyone can come along
> > > >and use and improve this code. To do so, however, they must agree to share in
> > > >the same spirit as the authors who created the code they wish to use. If you
> > > >ask me, this is not unreasonable, nor does it infringe on any freedoms. One
> > > >need not use GNU software at all. if you want to keep it to yourself, you are
> > > >100% free not to use something with a GPL license.
> > >
> > > All nice words, but the GPL is incompatible with most other *free* software
> > > licenses as well as with proprietary ones. Someone who wants to put their
> > > software under another free license is certainly willing to share, but cannot
> > > use code from GNU software.
> >
> > Then don't build on something which the author chose GPL, use another open
> > source package to build on. If there isn't one available, it is a free country,
> > write your own.
>
> It's amazing how many greedy bastards there are, who want to take and take,
> but never give. More incredibly, they view it as their right. Of course,
> ever since America began, it's been that way... just ask our aborigines.
The Aborigines are in Australia.
>
> Chris
>
> --
> [X] Check here to always trust content from Chris
> [ ] Check here if you're a dazed follower of Bill Gates
--
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time.
The terror of their tyranny, however, is alleviated by their lack of
consistency.
-- Albert Einstein
========================
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: Peter =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=F6hlmann?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:57:54 +0100
Jasper wrote:
>
> However the really talented people write applications for use by those
> people who have no real interest in computers but need them in order
> to compete economically or simply remain employable. Or just to have
> a bit of fun when it rains outside. These are the people who become
> overnight millionaires. Windows is a playground for those gifted
> enough to exploit it.
>
What potent stuff did you smoke?
I am a linux-user, as I am using wintendo and OS/2.
But my main machine is running linux.
By the way, I am a programmer. I did programs for OS/2,
I still do for windows and for linux.
Your definition is pure conjecture and clearly depicts a
too narrow thinking on your part.
In my experience are those who do windows only good
for about -- lets think -- ah yes, nothing.
They are not accustomed to thinking the other way, they
just know the One Microsoft Way (tm). That shows.
Peter
--
Microsoft's Product Strategy: "It compiles, let's ship it!"
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Marc Richter)
Subject: Re: What do I do with a Windows partition?
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:25:17 -0500
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:40:54 +0100, Mart van de Wege <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:35:35 +0100, Mart van de Wege wrote:
>>>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Right on
>>>the nail Ian. I am not just thinking of switching, I have
>>>switched over entirely. As I said for my needs I don't *need*
>>>Windows: I am not a heavy gamer, and I like online games much
>>>better anyway, and my
>>
>> Since you're a light gamer(?) you may want to check out
>> Lokisoft.com if you haven't done so already. They have some
>> good titles.
><Snip some stuff>
>
>Light gamer==No 3d action games that require a 1G Athlon and a
>GeForce 32M DDR.
>I prefer strategy games, so I do have 1 Loki title installed,
>the venerable Railroad Tycoon II. I am thinking of ordering Sim
>City 3000, but I like playing against real humans a lot better.
>Computer opponents tend to be a bit on the dumb side, or maybe I
>am just to smart for them :-)
>
>Mart
Mart,
Go to http://www.freeciv.org
Freeciv is a multi-player strategy game in the spirit of Civilization 2.
It's a hoot...there's a pretty constant flow of games that you can
join and the gaming itself is lots of fun.
If you've never played the Civ series, the basic premise is to guide
your civilization through approx 6000 years of history. You start
with a small tribe that doesn't even know about pottery <grin> and
the winner is the first player to either conquer the world or fly
a spaceship to Alpha Centauri.
Give it a look.
>--
>YahDu (Yet another happy Debian user)
--
Marc A. Richter I&R Deployed Support
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
------------------------------
From: pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:16:26 +0000
Hi Terry,
Just a quick note:
Terry Porter wrote:
> >> Which GUI, there are at least 22 Linux GUI's, are you aware of this ?
> >
> >No I've only been using Linux for about 2 years.
> This should be sufficient time to discover the diverse range of GUI's avail
> for Linux ?
>
> Unless one is only using Linux as a server?
Well I _am_ actually using Linux as server, but also as my programming
workstation, so yes I am very familiar with a few of the GUI choices
available. This was meant to be a humorous irony that may have been lost
in the translation :-)
> >> Which printing subsystem, we have the BSD, and Cups, which one do you mean?
> >
> >Good point. Which indeed. That _is_ indeed the problem.
> Nope its called 'diversity', 'progress' and 'choice'.
As I said in another post, I regard printing as a OS subsystem, and as
all good OS people should know - a simple consistent API is essential.
To be honest I am not viewing this as a "user" but as a programmer. I
want to write the least code _but_ be sure that the end client has a
working solution without the current pain (or at least - I have found it
a pain as gs does not have a very good driver for my printer)
> >> Does the term 'lack behind' accurately describe a GUI thats natively able
> >> to do *remote gui*, whereas Windows, without 3rd party apps,*cannot* do this ?
> >
> >Cheap shot. You should know that I am talking about HCI.
> HCI ?
Human Computer Interaction.
I use remote X extensively and it is a great tool - but I was not
talking about the actual functionality, but overall UI consistency.
> >> > Of course things are changing FAST
> >> >and great programming toolkits are now available (read GTK+).
> >> GTK has been available for years now, its not new.
> >
> >Gnome was not. Components were not.
> You used GTK+ as your example.
Yes - and Gnome uses GTK+ as the toolkit of choice combined with a new
underlying CORBA architecture - which it a great thing and rather new in
the Unix world (and I should state that "new" in the sense of proper
deployment - not as in a new idea).
> >> >Of course windows is restricting in MANY ways - but this gibberish above
> >> >just goes to show how some Linux users are absolutely blind to the good
> >> >points in the Windows OS.
> >> Name just ONE?
> >
> >OLE, COM (DCOM), ActiveX, DirectX, Driver support, Software support, UI
> >consistency.
> I cannot comment on the first 4, because they are not something I have any
> experience with. "Driver Support" and "Software support" are meaningless without
> any further expansion. However the last example is plain wrong.
Driver support means that I can but any hardware and not worry if I can
also use it under linux without extensive research first. I had first
hand problems with this recently when I purchased a USB web cam.
Software Support means that companies use both Win32 and Linux as a base
for their applications. I would very much like to run many of my Windows
programs under Linux. I have tried VMWare and WINE, but both still have
a long way to go (and I think that WINE makes more sense).
> Windows95 is replete with inconsistencies that cause confusion and frustration.
> The My Computer folder is one such example. Microsoft considers it a "special"
> folder, and therefore unlike all other folders, the user cannot add files or
> folders to it, or remove objects from it.
>
> There are several such "special" objects in Windows95, such as icons that
> cannot be removed from the desktop, and windows that do not support
> drag-and-drop. In interface design terms, "special" means "inconsistent"
> and "undesirable".
Yes - these are all true. I am not (and never have) said that the GUI in
Windows was the best. It is however better than the hotchpotch of tools
and utilities that face a new user to Linux. Those are the people who I
am concerned with. They would like to see a better OS - and the OS to
them means the GUI.
> >Go read a dictionary.
> I did, here are some of the results, btw I used the Linux Wordnet GUI to do
> this on-line, its so very easy with linux :)
nice comeback :-)
> I have found that the term 'works' is much bandied about on COLA, mainly
> by Windows users, who lacking the necessary energy, patience, or knowledge
> use this term in abundance, to explain their blind faith in this OS.
I hope that by now you know that I am both a Windows user AND a Linux
user. I have quite a knowledge of both systems and that is why I have NO
faith in win32. You are making all kinds of incorrect assumptions
because I choose to say: "Hey - Windows DOES do a few things very well".
This is one of the problems that I find in an advocacy group: polarized
opinions. I don't think it's healthy.
> >> Does a virii infested pc 'work' ?
> >
> >You are being stupid.
> Your intelectual responses, are underwhelming me, at a rapid rate.
We were not talking about viruses. I am well aware of this problem.
> >> Does continual lockups, and re boots 'work' ?
> >
> >You are avoiding the _real_ issues.
> How so, you said 'they do work', I pointed out that this term is meaningless,
> and that the 'do not always work'.
>
> Perhaps the 'real issues' are not the same to you and I ?
I think they are. What I would like is:
1) Stability and reliability of OS (primarily) and userland apps
2) A great programming platform based on an intelligent component design
3) A great GUI
4) Powerful CLI tools (we already have these)
> This comment is interesting from one who advocates a closed, proprietary,
> and unstable operating system.
Sorry I am lost in your logic. Where do I advocate Windows?
Do you mean when I say that M$ have got a great idea in component
programming that I am advocating windows _use_? That makes no sense.
Especially when I also say that this is one of the great improvements
that the Gnome team is giving to the Linux community. But I sense that
you are looking at this as a expert user and not a programmer. I think
that is why you are having difficulty when you see that I "advocate"
parts of Windows, thinking that I am actually saying "Hey - windows is
better than Linux - lets all use it", which I am not.
> Typical Wintroll rhetoric ...sadly.
That is quite insulting. I don't mind a lot of things but I do mind
being branded as spewing "Wintroll rhetoric". If you don't like a
Linux-user criticizing Linux then something in the community is lacking.
It is a simple matter of arguing for improvement and I am always
surprised at how much resistance there is to change or not adopting
great ideas because of their origin.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ian Davey)
Subject: Re: definition of "free" for N-millionth time
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:18:01 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> It's amazing how many greedy bastards there are, who want to take and take,
>> but never give. More incredibly, they view it as their right. Of course,
>> ever since America began, it's been that way... just ask our aborigines.
>
>The Aborigines are in Australia.
"Aborigine: A member of the indigenous or earliest known population of a
region"
Every country in the world has (or had) Aborigines.
ian.
\ /
(@_@) http://www.eclipse.co.uk/sweetdespise/ (dark literature)
/(&)\ http://www.eclipse.co.uk/sweetdespise/libertycaptions/ (art)
| |
------------------------------
From: pip <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:18:35 +0000
Jasper wrote:
> [snip crap]
Now if you want a real example of a Wintroll then this is one of them.
------------------------------
From: SomeoneElse (SoneoneElse)
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,alt.microsoft.sucks
Subject: Re: Crimosoft will get off scot-free
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:33:27 GMT
Reply-To: Truthteller
On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 06:34:23 -0500, Aaron Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Also, there are other things: The designers of the aircraft in
>question did NOT design the airplane around the toilet. Anybody
>familiar with military vehicles knows that creature comforts are
>an afterthought (if even considered at all). My guess is that
>there was a clearance consideration which prevented the use of
>toilet seats of standard shape and size, which mandated that the
>manufacturer tool up the factory for a short-run of special-sized
>toilet seats.
I had thought the toilets went on ships not aircraft.
A friend in the Navy told me that they have some very strict
requirements on ships, such as a toilet which when it rises in
temperature high enough to melt or burn, does not emit
toxic fumes ( after all this is probably below decks in an area
with poor ventilation ). Meeting requirements like that can
make parts very expensive.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Isaac)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: definition of "free" for N-millionth time
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:18:15 GMT
On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:50:25 GMT, Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Ken Arromdee wrote:
>> > All nice words, but the GPL is incompatible with most other *free* software
>> > licenses as well as with proprietary ones. Someone who wants to put their
>> > software under another free license is certainly willing to share, but
>> > cannot use code from GNU software.
>It's amazing how many greedy bastards there are, who want to take and take,
>but never give. More incredibly, they view it as their right. Of course,
>ever since America began, it's been that way... just ask our aborigines.
How do you translate Mr. Arromdee's statement that he is willing to share
(under a different free license) into a request from a greedy bastard who
wants to "take and take but never give"?
Isaac
------------------------------
From: Jakob Kosowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE or GNOME?
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:47:23 +0100
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spicerun wrote:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] BOZOIZED!> wrote:
?
> > Why do so many people use Winblows? There must be a good reason for that
> > :-|
> It certainly had nothing to do with choice!
?
> <plonk>
I just said that there needn't to be a reason. Because I'm not very good at
English I maybe didn't get the point and wrote something silly or
offending, but why do you *plonk* me? It was my first post ever on c.o.l.a.
Do you hate newbies or what?
------------------------------
From: "Les Mikesell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:55:39 GMT
"mlw" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> > It's just a software license. But since you're having a go at other
> > open-source licenses: why should you not be able to capitalize on the
> > work of others without sharing in the cost if that is the aim of the
> > permissive license? Why is giving away something for free communism?
>
> You misunderstand. I don't care what others do in their licensing, what I
do
> care about is what others would do with code I have released.
But you do care if you release GPL'd code. You are insisting that any
code that is used in combination with yours in a way that might be
considered a derived work (and the FSF considers linking a library
to make all the linked code a derived work) must also be licensed
according to your choice, not the author(s) of the other compnents.
> If I release something GPL, I have made a conscious choice to release it
in
> that manner. The GPL does exactly what I expect it too. Now, if I have
done a
> good job people will use my code. If they want to base a product on it,
they
> are welcome to do so, IF they contribute any changes back to me, OR they
pay me
> to get a copy which is not GPL.
Describing the GPL as above in terms of forcing other people to do what
you want is much more accurate that the usual nonsense about freedom
that is bandied about, and it is in fact a good license if your real agenda
is to prevent the released code from ever competing in a commercial sense
with something else you are selling. If the rest of the GPL users were
this
honest about their motives I don't think anyone would have a problem with
it.
Les Mikesell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Subject: Re: Windoze Domination/Damnation
Date: 5 Mar 2001 13:53:44 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
>
>> The average Office-Depot shopping jerk cannot. And such comprise the
>> bulk of the consumer market.
>
>But that still doesn't stop them doing buying blank machines!
>
I've just had to build my own. Who sells blank machines?
--
Nick
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Subject: Re: Windoze Domination/Damnation
Date: 5 Mar 2001 13:56:07 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pete Goodwin) wrote in
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>In article <97t4jt$p5k$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
>
>> Unless most people don't know that there are alternatives (which they
>> don't). Besides, having paid for something is usually incentive to use
>> it.
>
>And how much does it cost, with a system?
>
>£100?
>£50?
>£30...
>
>It's around £30 or less. That's a big expense is it?
>
If I give you my account details, will you drop 30 quid in it?
After all, it's not much is it?
--
Nick
------------------------------
From: "Gary Hallock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another Linux "Oopsie"!
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:04:09 +0500
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Pete
Goodwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm talking about drivers in general, not just printer drivers. What
> happens if you allow one application to drive the graphics and another
> to pick a different driver?
>
Gimp doesn'y really provide its own printer driver, just its own filters.
There is only one driver for the parallel port that connects to the
printer. Now if Gimp decided to somehow unload parport_pc and replace
it with it's own, then you might have a point.
Gary
------------------------------
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