Linux-Advocacy Digest #660, Volume #32 Mon, 5 Mar 01 17:13:06 EST
Contents:
Re: GPL Like patents. (mlw)
Re: Windows Owns Desktop, Extends Lead in Server Market ("Masha Ku'Inanna")
Re: GPL Like patents. (Roberto Alsina)
Re: definition of "free" for N-millionth time (Isaac)
Re: GPL Like patents. (Roberto Alsina)
Re: Windows Owns Desktop, Extends Lead in Server Market ("Masha Ku'Inanna")
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Pete Goodwin)
Cuts both ways (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Another Linux "Oopsie"! (Paul Colquhoun)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Pete Goodwin)
Re: GPL Like patents. (mlw)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows... (Pete Goodwin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:07:37 -0500
Craig Kelley wrote:
>
> mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > This is about GPL, not BSD. As a developer, I will never release under the BSD
> > license because it does not afford me enough control over my work. They may be
> > similar in nature, but not analogous.
> >
> > The last thing I want to happen is to create something for the open source
> > community and have it cooped by M$, ala kerberose.
>
> You'd rather that they re-wrote their own protocol that replaces
> kerberos and doesn't work with other kerberos devices? Seems like
> cutting off one's nose to spite the face to me.
Yes. As it is Microsoft stole, yes I used that word, the work of others and is
trying to make their own standard based on the work of others. If it were GPL,
this wouldn't be possible.
>
> > The GPL is about the rights and freedom of developers and the code they
> > produce.
>
> Nobody denies that; but you must admit that the GPL doesn't foster as
> much code interchange as the less-strict free licenses. Your 'patent'
> analogy is good, but it doesn't always have the same effect that you
> are claiming for it.
If GPL prevents microsoft from doing to GPL code what it did to Kerberose, then
yes, it accomplishes what it should.
>
> Again, one of the factors that Apple considered in using BSD code for
> Darwin was the open license. Everyone came out ahead in that deal and
> information was spread around to all involved.
>
> Linus' open stance on binary-only kernel modules allows us to use
> Nvidia cards under Linux. Would the world be a better place if they
> only worked under Windows? Probably not.
When it comes to GPL, I am more aligned with Linus than I am with RMS.
--
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time.
The terror of their tyranny, however, is alleviated by their lack of
consistency.
-- Albert Einstein
========================
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: "Masha Ku'Inanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Windows Owns Desktop, Extends Lead in Server Market
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:05:49 -0500
Reply-To: "Masha Ku'Inanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Been thinking along those lines myself. I despise Windows, I despise
> Bill Gates, yet here I am helping people with their Windows problems
> so they can go on using Windows and Bill Gates can go on making money
> while I can go on offering free tech support so he doesn't have to
> work quite so hard for his bucks.
>
> There's something wrong with this picture. :-(
>
I'd worked at CompUSA (avoid the Lexington, KY store, but that is another
newsgroup, i think), and worked at the upgrades counter, in front of the
tech-shop.
I would constantly offer free tech support on simple questions, but always
talk about how MS always had problems with insecurity, viruses, etc.
Whenever they'd ask how to avoid viruses, i'd usually tell them to not rely
on MS products.
Wonderful segue (sp?) into Linux. or FreeBSD.
One customer asked about getting his/her hands on Office. I said, sure - how
many computers will it be legally installed on?
Or for that matter, how many computers will they install WinME or 2000 on,
and if they're ready to technically purchase individual copies for each
computer.
Then mention linux.
After explaining things in an incredibly in-depth manner, neutral to both
sides, it is always amazing to watch their eyes light up as if the wool that
had been pulled over their eyes was suddenly removed.
Othertimes, people'd come in wanting to buy Red-hat linux, and I'd point 'em
to the book-section. (Linux Bible series). They'd ask "Why not get the full
version?.." I'd tell em "Why? This is still a full installation, for half of
the retail box, and you get this thick 'manual' with it.."
The expressions are always priceless..
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:07:15 -0300
mlw wrote:
> Craig Kelley wrote:
>>
>> mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>> > This is about GPL, not BSD. As a developer, I will never release under
>> > the BSD license because it does not afford me enough control over my
>> > work. They may be similar in nature, but not analogous.
>> >
>> > The last thing I want to happen is to create something for the open
>> > source community and have it cooped by M$, ala kerberose.
>>
>> You'd rather that they re-wrote their own protocol that replaces
>> kerberos and doesn't work with other kerberos devices? Seems like
>> cutting off one's nose to spite the face to me.
>
> Yes. As it is Microsoft stole, yes I used that word, the work of others
> and is trying to make their own standard based on the work of others. If
> it were GPL, this wouldn't be possible.
AFAIK, MS did not use anyone's code, but reimplemented Kerberos in a
slightly incompatible manner.
Then again, that's just my recollection from the time, so maybe I am wrong.
But if my recollection is right, the GPL makes zero difference.
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Isaac)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: definition of "free" for N-millionth time
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:54:34 GMT
On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:55:04 GMT, Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>How do you get that from what I said? I merely made a general statement.
>Probably has nothing to do with Mr. A.
Fair enough. I took your meaning as a response to the two messaages
you quoted. In this case I'm glad my inference was wrong.
Isaac
------------------------------
From: Roberto Alsina <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 18:13:15 -0300
mlw wrote:
> Roberto Alsina wrote:
[snip a lot]
>> > Why don't we just
>> > look at section 2 of the GPL shall we, it clearly refutes much of the
>> > garbage people say about GPL:
>> >
>> > http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
>>
>> [snip section 2 of the GPL]
>>
>> > This section makes it VERY clear that the doom and gloom people are
>> > claiming GPL will do is utter non-sense.
>>
>> Actually, I have my own copy of the GPL, thank you ;-)
>> It would be much more clarifying if instead of just quoting 100 lines of
>> text, you quoted with interspersed comments, explaining how, in your
>> view, linking with a tiny GPLd library doesn't make your code GPLd. I'll
>> promess to do my best to repeat the crap GPL advocates told me in the
>> past.
>
> Read this carefully:
Read what I wrote carefully yourself.
You know, repeating yourself is not useful. But I will do what I politely
asked you to do and actually COMMENT on the GPL.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable
> sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be
> reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves,
According to RMS, anything that uses the fuctionality of a library licensed
under the GPL can not be reasonably considered independent and a separate
work in itself. He says both things together, the library and the app are a
larger work, that should be covered by the GPL.
End of discussion, see you in court.
See how easy it is? It now all comes down to what "reasonably" means. The
only binding decision about it would be a court's. You will NOT get any GPL
advocate, RMS, or a representative from the FSF to tell you that there
could EVER exist such a thing as an independent work that calls a library.
The rest of section 2 is not needed, since it doesn't apply, according to
RMS, IIRC.
[snip]
--
Roberto Alsina
------------------------------
From: "Masha Ku'Inanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windows Owns Desktop, Extends Lead in Server Market
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:13:55 -0500
Reply-To: "Masha Ku'Inanna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Yea yea, we'll believe it when it happens. Momentum? An object in motion
> tends to stay in motion, that is a rule of physics - but it doesn't mean
it
> isn't slowing down.
>
Unless acted upon by an outside force.
Amazing how overall confidence in MS as a company and product line dwindles,
when you have retail stores with personnel explaining Linux to customers,
customers buying and building new computers specifically to run Linux, and
customers asking for a way to not have to reply on MS anymore.
> Why do people just not get it? It's old news - the price of the OS is
almost
> insignificant to any serious server or computer company investment. PLUS
the
> few dollars you save "not buying" Linux you'll easily spend 3x over paying
> to support it and the additional admins and programmers required to milk
> usability from it. It's a known fact that unix OSes require more TCO to
stay
> usefull.
Let me paraphrase you..
Show some figures to support your claim..
or should it be worded in your eloquent style:
"Completely untrue. And I suspect you know it."
> > For instance, Dell offers low cost servers, which come at no additional
> > price for Linux. Load Win2000 Server and it costs extra.
>
> Yep, true. So if you are into the bottom dollar application then I guess
yer
> right, linux is good for the cheap crowd.
>
>
> >
> > However, both Win 2000 Server and Linux will take market share in the
> > current downturn, but Linux may well take the most.
> >
>
> you trust that crystal ball eh? well...we'll see, cause currently, W2K has
> grown in marketshare FAR more than Linux has - and W2K is new...
"Completely untrue. And I suspect you know it."
Hey, your cut-and-paste reponses are quite effective. I like that.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:26:56 GMT
In article <97upur$3ld$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> >> So is that why Win2K now has a telnet server and improved command line
> >> tools?
> >
> > Does the Professional version have this? Will the consumer version of
> > Whistler have this? No?
>
> It seems to me that you are pointing out how a lack of features is a good
> thing.
Changing the subject I see?
> It depende. If it is your PC then yes (although there isn't much choice
> andnone of them are as good as FVWM2). If it is a `public' workstation,
> then no. The UNIX workstations avaliable to me have 3 different choices.
> The windows ones have one choice (is one choice an oxymoron?)
Why should being a public workstation be a restriction?
--
Pete
All your no fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:31:16 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
says...
> > Because I can see them? Mostly they're of little interest, as they should
> > be.
>
> Why?
I have no interest in the raw workings of the machine I am using.
Consider this - whilst driving your care, are you aware of what is
happening in the engine? Is it relevant to you as you turn into
somewhere?
> > Oh, I don't have a problem with pipes and tees. I just have a problem
> > with the whole cryptic command line.
>
> So you don't like to learn stuff, is that it?
So we jump from 'cryptic' to 'learning stuff'. I see.
> If "hotpotch' is your problem, you'll be pleased to learn that it is
> perfectly possible in linux to build a desktop that has a nigh-perfect
> consistency of interface between applications. It just depends on what
> applications you pick (and what desktop, of course).
And can I buy such a system ready made?
> Possibly, I wouldn't know. I don't pick my operating system on the basis
> of how much applications I can choose from, but rather on whether it
> will perform the tasks I want it to do.
I switched from the Archimedes RISC OS to Windows for a couple of
reasons: (i) floating point hardware on the Intel chips and (ii)
applicatons.
> The measure of success are viri, spam and monopolies????
Unfortunately, yes.
--
Pete
All your no fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,alt.os.linux
Subject: Cuts both ways
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:36:10 GMT
This page supports a product which purports to run Linux apps on Windows:
http://neomueller.org/~isamu/line/
In Dr. Dobbs Journal for April, there's an article about "Using
Windows NT Embedded 4.0". In the same issue, there's a product which
"implements a Windows NT subset kernel in only 16K" --
http://www.on-time.com.
Whole lotta shakin' goin' on!
Chris
--
[X] Check here to always trust content from Chris
[ ] Check here if you're a dazed follower of Bill Gates
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:35:49 GMT
In article <97uqg4$3mu$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> > Oh, I don't have a problem with pipes and tees. I just have a problem
> > with the whole cryptic command line.
>
> They problem is that you think it is cryptic. Take the time to learn it
> and you'll find it is really very efficient.
The problem is not that _I_ think it is cryptic, it is that it _is_
cryptic!
> > Applications.
>
> There are plenty of apps to choose from in Linux. In fact there are more
> than enough to meet my current needs.
Your needs?
What about the rest of the world???
> > Who gets the devices and drivers designed first, huh, Linux or Windows?
>
> So why does Win2K have an HCL, then?
Wassat got to do with anything?
> Why is all my hardware fully supported under Linux?
Why is mine "supported" but doesn't actually work without manual
intervention?
> Why did it all work
> first time?
Why didn't mine?
> Well? And why the hell did windows want drivers for my
> moniter? its just a moniter and it workes perfectly under either OS
> without special drivers.
You specify on Linux on the monitor properties did you not? Same thing!
> > Which platform has many games written for it, Linux or Windows?
>
> I stopped spending money on the upgrade cycle, so games are a non issue
> for me.
What have upgrades to do with games? 8)
> Besides, how in hells name are the above 2 things either innovative or
> fresh (the context of the comment).
You mean you haven't looked at the latest gee whiz bang games lately? 8*)
> > They're young and they show it.
>
> Yep they show it all right. Fresh, clean design. Skinnable, all the
> modern features, working, now.
I meant buggy and unstable.
--
Pete
All your no fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:40:00 GMT
In article <97u9in$f0g$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> > You're a throwback. You like to stay with the command line and stagnate.
> >
>
> No, it can be more effecient to use a single command than multiple
> mouse-clicks to accomplish the same task.
"A picture paints a thousand words".
Ever tried to edit a graphic with a CLI?
> > With Linux I can feel the restraints of too many toolkits and the
> > ugliness of multiple window managers all straining to get their fingers
> > on me.
>
> And uner Windows, it only takes one GUI to make me feel the same "ugliness."
Except there is only one API and one window manager. Everything follows
the same rules... 8)
> > On Windows, I couldn't care less what is running.
>
> Until it inevitably crashes?
Why should what is running make any difference to wether it crashes or
not?
> In my use, any application, or process under UNIX/Linux can be killed. The
> OS will not refuse to allow it, as under Windows.
Ah, but have you tried killing an application that's got out of control,
that is eating all system resources, consuming all swap space? If you
can't get the console to respond, you're just as dead.
> > UNIX is an example of a system that was designed too long ago, and got
> > many things wrong. Every piece is a hotpotch affair, all pulling in
> > different directions.
>
> And has had 25 years of development to result in an OS that is flexible,
> elegant, powerful, and stable.
You think the multiple desktop is elegant? Sheesh!
> You've bought into the recent slew of MS commercials lately, haven't you?..
Naaah.
> Juggernaut.. That is so true. MS has not been able to squash it no matter
> how hard they've tried.
Maybe dinosaur is the better term.
Didn't they die out or something?
--
Pete
All your no fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Paul Colquhoun)
Subject: Re: Another Linux "Oopsie"!
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:53:09 GMT
On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 18:08:02 +0000, Edward Rosten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Gary Hallock"
|<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
|> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Pete
|> Goodwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|>
|>
|>> I'm talking about drivers in general, not just printer drivers. What
|>> happens if you allow one application to drive the graphics and another
|>> to pick a different driver?
|>>
|>
|> Gimp doesn'y really provide its own printer driver, just its own
|> filters. There is only one driver for the parallel port that connects to
|> the printer. Now if Gimp decided to somehow unload parport_pc and
|> replace it with it's own, then you might have a point.
|>
|> Gary
|
|No. Gimp definitely has printer drivers. Printer != parallel port.
By that definition, every program that can print anything has its own
printer driver/s.
GIMP wants to be told what sort of printer you have so it can use the
most efficient method to print graphics to it, rather that have them
go through several layers of unnecessary translation ( i.e. jpg ->
postscript -> PCL when jpg -> PCL would be faster and give better
results).
--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Universal Life Church http://andor.dropbear.id.au/~paulcol
-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-=*=-
xenaphobia: The fear of being beaten to a pulp by
a leather-clad, New Zealand woman.
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:43:16 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> I always chuckle going through Windows NT Server books as they
> explain how to do it:
>
> Go the X menu. Click the Y button. Go to the Z edit field.
> Type in the DNS addresses. Click the add button. Go to the Z
> edit field. Type in the second DNS address. Click...
>
> Click... click...
>
> We've had this argument over and over. GUI's are good for newbies
> and when you can't quite remember what to do. Otherwise, the CLI
> and scripts rules.
"Good for newbies". Ah, such blindness and naivety is astounding.
"A picture paints a thousand words".
> > Linux has saddled itself with the old way of thinking. It works fine, but
> > its not the shiny clicky advanced way of doing things.
>
> It's got it all, dude.
Except the desktop, man.
> I find myself using the command line about 50% of the time. I suppose I'm
> just being stupid and inefficient, though, heh heh. Anyway, I hope the
> shell scripters come down hard on you for such inanity.
That's because you don't know any better!
> > Because it's better!
>
> Another dazed follower of William H. Gates.
"A picture paints a thousand words". I'm no dazed follower of Bill Gates,
I found GUI's long before he came on with Windows. I've been a X
programmer before WIN32.
--
Pete
All your no fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:44:09 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> Not just newbies.... my man program gets well used.
And how _old_ is man now? Does it have linking and cross referencing yet?
My god, even OpenVMS help had better features than man!
--
Pete
All your no fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: mlw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 16:54:55 -0500
Roberto Alsina wrote:
>
> mlw wrote:
>
> > Roberto Alsina wrote:
>
> [snip a lot]
>
> >> > Why don't we just
> >> > look at section 2 of the GPL shall we, it clearly refutes much of the
> >> > garbage people say about GPL:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
> >>
> >> [snip section 2 of the GPL]
> >>
> >> > This section makes it VERY clear that the doom and gloom people are
> >> > claiming GPL will do is utter non-sense.
> >>
> >> Actually, I have my own copy of the GPL, thank you ;-)
> >> It would be much more clarifying if instead of just quoting 100 lines of
> >> text, you quoted with interspersed comments, explaining how, in your
> >> view, linking with a tiny GPLd library doesn't make your code GPLd. I'll
> >> promess to do my best to repeat the crap GPL advocates told me in the
> >> past.
> >
> > Read this carefully:
>
> Read what I wrote carefully yourself.
> You know, repeating yourself is not useful. But I will do what I politely
> asked you to do and actually COMMENT on the GPL.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >
> > These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable
> > sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be
> > reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves,
>
> According to RMS, anything that uses the fuctionality of a library licensed
> under the GPL can not be reasonably considered independent and a separate
> work in itself. He says both things together, the library and the app are a
> larger work, that should be covered by the GPL.
>
> End of discussion, see you in court.
>
> See how easy it is? It now all comes down to what "reasonably" means. The
> only binding decision about it would be a court's. You will NOT get any GPL
> advocate, RMS, or a representative from the FSF to tell you that there
> could EVER exist such a thing as an independent work that calls a library.
>
> The rest of section 2 is not needed, since it doesn't apply, according to
> RMS, IIRC.
As a legal document, it is taken as a whole. No part stands alone unless
explicitly outlined in the document. No such specification was made. The
section must be taken as a whole, and the end is VERY important:
>>>>>>>
These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable
sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably
considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and
its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate
works.
<<<<<<<<
That seems pretty clear
How about this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your
rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the
right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on
the Program.
In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the
Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or
distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this
License.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
When reading a legal contract, one must interpret everything in in it. All
rights and limitations must be clearly specified. if a limitation is not made,
it does not exist. If a right is not granted, you have no additional rights.
Any debate about GPL must be centered around the actual license. Not what you
think, or what you think you have heard Stallman say.
The words are important because they outline the contract one accepts when they
use GPL. No additional rights are granted and no additional limitations exist.
You can quote, Gandhi if you want, but it doesn't make a difference.
--
The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time.
The terror of their tyranny, however, is alleviated by their lack of
consistency.
-- Albert Einstein
========================
http://www.mohawksoft.com
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:52:51 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> > The CLI is the old way of doing things. It has it's place, but it's
> > getting a bit long in the tooth. Long live the GUI!
>
> No its not. Its the way people who _know_ a lot about computers like to
> interact with it to achieve some things faster or better than in a GUI.
> For people who are new to computing the CLI is a frightening place - but
> for most of us here it is an expressive, sciptable and adaptable place.
And you think I don't know a lot about computers because I favour the GUI
over the CLI?
I've found the GUI to be a liberating and expressive experience, vastly
so compared to the tired and cranky CLI.
> CLI does not take up as much bandwidth as a Laplink session m8!
Well, I don't do too many a Laplink session!
> > > Windows doesn't have a true command line - it just has a DOS prompt.
> >
> > It doesn't need it thankfully!
>
> OK - tell me something. I have copied a large amount of files from my cd
> onto my hd. How do I make these files readable in the GUI (a single
> recursive command). Using CLI it will be attrib -r -a -h -s /s
Press CTRL-A ALT-ENTER then select your wishes. They'll all change.
Oh, you mentioned recursive... 8)
> Go on then.... tell me how the shiny new toy will help me be faster. I
> dare you....
I just did, didn't I?
> > Linux has saddled itself with the old way of thinking. It works fine, but
> > its not the shiny clicky advanced way of doing things.
>
> Shiny clicky _is_ very important, but not for everything and everyone.
> Most of the time I prefer clicky, but there are a large number of things
> that you can't adequately express quickly via a GUI.
Ah we agree here!
> > Because the GUI is the best way to work for 99% of the time! It's the CLI
> > that is stifling! Even with virtual consoles.
>
> hmmmmm. Lets examine this. I want to copy all text files in directory
> c:\mystuff\downloads\arts to a:\backup\arts - how do i do this?
Try picking an example not skewed in favour of the CLI. The best answer
is to use the CLI: copy *.txt a:
> now remember that under BASH you have tab completion so that you don't
> have to type hardly any of the above. Go work out the time difference
> Pete and then tell me that GUI is faster.
OK, now take a GUI example. You have a whole bunch of directories you
want to copy from one place to another. You can do it in one drag and
drop operation. You could do it with XCOPY32 /S *.* dest if you want -
you tell me, which is quicker?
> Of course there are counter examples - but it just goes to show that
> there is a REAL need for a direct expert interface.
I agree! But I'm saying that 99% of operations are easily done with a
GUI.
For example, can you edit a bitmap with the CLI? Can you _imagine_ what
that would be like?
edit x.bmp
change pixel 43 43 to colour 0xff3344
change rectangle 43 443 43 566 to colour 0xddeeff
Do you get the picture?
> better!=just gui
>
> better==gui&&CLI
I agree!
> > I like BeOS, but BeOS is dead because of lack of applications. Mac OS-X
> > is always on the sidelines.
>
> Mac OS IS IN BETA...... right? has it even been released? Then this
> comment make no sense right?
Picky, picky! OK, just try MAC.
--
Pete
All your no fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sometimes, when I run Windows...
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:53:22 GMT
In article <01c0a514$5c3ffc00$7f208bd4@nigel-laptop>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> Highlight all files, right-click, select 'properties', change attributes -
> this
> works under konqueror (not sure about windows exploder though).
>
> Still slower than the CLI but it is possible under the GUI.
That maybe true of knoqueror, but not so true of Windows.
--
Pete
All your no fly zone are belong to us
------------------------------
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