Linux-Advocacy Digest #755, Volume #32 Sun, 11 Mar 01 05:13:03 EST
Contents:
Re: Largest Linux installation? (Rex Ballard)
Re: Breaking into the Unix field: FreeBSD vs Linux (RH7) (J Sloan)
Re: Linux Joke (J Sloan)
Re: Dividing OS to groups. ("GreyCloud")
Re: What is user friendly? ("Alex Wang")
Re: Customising Wrap-Up Screen. (WAS: "It is now safe to shut off your computer")
("GreyCloud")
Re: Microsoft's .NET Vision ("GreyCloud")
Re: Patch to Kulkis_Sig_10.1 now ready for downloading (Stuart Krivis)
Re: Breaking into the Unix field: FreeBSD vs Linux (RH7) (Stuart Krivis)
Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, and lies about free software (Stuart Krivis)
Re: What Linux MUST DO! - Comments anyone? (Friedrich Dominicus)
The new Linux economy - Re: GPL Like patents. (Rex Ballard)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Rex Ballard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Largest Linux installation?
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 03:11:25 -0500
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Royal Dutch Shell,
NASA,
Fermi Labs,
Lawrence Livermore Labs,
Genome Project,
DeutcheBank.
Most of these organizations have a number of Linux systems including
servers and workstations,
I don't know of anyone who has successfully eliminated Windows 9x/NT/2K
completely.
Mohd-Hanafiah Abdullah wrote:
>
> Does anybody know of any large organization(s) that are using Linux
> extensively both for server function as well as for desktop beside the Linux
> vendors themselves. This would be a good reference for selling the idea of
> Linux to enterprise and government.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Napi
--
Rex Ballard
It Architect
http://www.open4success.com
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------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Breaking into the Unix field: FreeBSD vs Linux (RH7)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:12:43 GMT
Stuart Krivis wrote:
> Unixware is probably the best example extant of an AT&T SysV Unix. It
> has the most "pure" bloodline in many ways.
Yes, pure as the driven snow, unpolluted by commands like
"w", "top", "uptime", or any number of useful commands....
jjs
------------------------------
From: J Sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Linux Joke
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:16:15 GMT
Ayende Rahien wrote:
> "J Sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> > > Releasing an alpha compiler for an obscure/rarely used language is okay,
> > > releasing an alpha compiler for a language as important as C++ ...
> >
> > The gcc 2.96 compiler is not alpha, it's fully funtional and fully
> supported.
>
> It's not production, and should not go into a production release.
Ah, but it is production. And I am happily using it in a production
environment, with excellent results!
You ought to consider learning a little about gcc-2.96 before
trotting out all the tired old anti-redhat hysteria.
jjs
------------------------------
From: "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Dividing OS to groups.
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:46:42 -0800
"J Sloan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
> > "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >
> > > > VMS based:
> > > > VMS
> > > > WinNT line.
> > >
> > > Uh,... I don't think vms is even remotely related to nt at all.
> >
> > Most of the design team from VMS worked on NT.>
>
> Yes, Dave Cutler, who was a major contributor to vms,
> was hired to help write windows nt.
>
> I never liked vms.
>
> jjs
I never liked it at first either, but my boss put me thru their schools at
DEC. Believe me, Nt and vms
are entirely different designs! VMS was designed after Unix and Cutler at
the time used macro.
I've never seen logical name tables in NT. or a table of your own
definitions to rename some cli commands
to your own liking. VMS also allowed the possibilities of booting 16
different o/ses. What I didn't like in vms
was the lack of i/o redirection. You had to use the assign command. In an
industrial environment and in universities a lot of the machines stayed up a
very long time without a hitch. I think Cutler was in the beginning
to trying to make an improved version of vms as nt, but rumours inside ms
was such that gates fired him after he
and cutler got into a design decision argument. It really was never
completely debugged. Bills' crew tried to adapt what was left to make win95
from it, and we know the rest of the story there. I was told that one vax
4000 was up for 6 years non-stop. I don't think Nt could last that long.
>
------------------------------
From: "Alex Wang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: What is user friendly?
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:55:05 +0200
"Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ¼¶¼g©ó¶l¥ó
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> crock. My very first copy of Linux was Redhat Linux 5.2, and as long as
you
> follow the instructions on the screen and documentation, your installation
> experience should be relitively straight forward. The problem occurs when
> idiots try to install UNIX/Linux under the assumption that it is exactly
> like Microsoft Windows, which is totally incorrect. People have problems
> when they think they know more than what they really do. A while back, in
I absolutely agree with this. I have been a Windows user for nearly 6 years
and now am switching into Linux. The only reason (which I found out after
consulting the installation guides and FAQs) why I reinstalled Mandrake
4 times is because I assumed that it was going to be like windows.
I've realised that one cannot look at linux while using windows as a
baseline
in any comparison. You have to compare them on equal footing. What would
a computer-illiterate person say if presented with a choice of Windows ME
and
say the KDE2?
IMHO, "user friendlyness" should not take into account the installation
process.
For example, on any business workstation, all installation and setup are
done
by the IT department, while the employees only have to "use" it.
If it is agreed that we can never expect more than 50% of computer users to
be
able to read documentation patiently and follow instructions, then there
will
always be people who mess up (like me) during installations.
> a computer to complete a basic task", my response is that , if all you
were
> to use a computer for is to write a letter to Aunt Perl, and send some
> email, you shouldn't really concern yourself with the OS, hence, the
excuse
Exactly. In fact, I think even writing letters on Linux (with LaTeX) is
easier
and faster than Windows (Word/WordPad with all the font settings, indent,
justification etc that you have to decide).
Alex Wang
--
====================
Hsi-Ting (Alex) Wang, ¤ýâ§Ê
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft
Subject: Re: Customising Wrap-Up Screen. (WAS: "It is now safe to shut off your
computer")
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:50:51 -0800
"Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> The even if Windows was ready and Itanium was ready:
>
> 1. The Itanium is bloody expensive when compared to other 64bit CPU's
> 2. Windows XP 64bit Server is unproven, hence, the uptake will be flat, if
> not, totally non-existant.
> 3. There is bugger-all software for Windows XP 64bit, and even if there
was,
> it would be considered "first generation 64 solutions", yet another reason
> why there will be a slow uptake.
> 4. Very soon (I am pretty optimistic), SUN has included a DVD drive in as
> an option in their SUN Blade 100 workstation, all that will be needed is a
> DVD player, and you will find many geeks/nerds/techno-enthusiasts will go
> out and buy a SUN Blade 100.
> 5. The apps are already there for Solaris, either in 64 bit or 32bit,
> either one has no performace loss, unlike 32 bit code on Intels Itanium
> processors that will run really shitty (from what I have heard).
> 6. From what I see, SUN is first trying to win over developer support
> (through their "big admin" site and other dinky little things), and once a
> significant number of people have jumped on board the Sparc bandwagon, the
> finally assult will be on the desktop (which may happen after the next
> revision of Solaris that will most likely include GNOME 2.0 (which will
have
> Natilus)), that will allow the average user to have the power and
stability
> of UNIX, whilst maintaing the ease of use of Windows/MacOS.
>
> Matthew Gardiner
That pretty much sums it up! BTW, I looked at Suns' buy site and DVD is an
option.
------------------------------
From: "GreyCloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Microsoft's .NET Vision
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:56:33 -0800
"Bloody Viking" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:98en4n$p0$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> Adam Warner ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> : I worry for people wanting to reinstall Office in five or ten years
time,
> : when Microsoft could possibly tell them "I'm sorry, your product is no
> : longer supported."
>
> That is yet another reason to reject .NET or the like and go to freeware.
That
> case as you describe means that .NET sodtware has an expiry date as set by
the
> maker. Totally sickening. I guess I was ahead of my time back in 1994 when
I
> lit off my first UNIX.... err.... I mean Linux nachine. Fuck that
ultrarich
> semi-autistic piece of shit son of a bitch Bill Gates(tm). How much
fucking
> money does one Homo Sapien need anyways?
>
LOL!! Ol billy boy's house! That house of his was started several years
ago and it still isn't
finished! Damn thing looks like a concrete bunker. His neighbors don't
like him either due to
all the construction noise going on. Check www.seattletimes.com and see it
there.
Or it could be www.komo.com.
> --
> FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run.
> The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust.
> The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stuart Krivis)
Subject: Re: Patch to Kulkis_Sig_10.1 now ready for downloading
Date: 11 Mar 2001 04:08:08 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 07 Mar 2001 06:03:27 -0000, Ray Chason
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>As if we're not already. Those of us who haven't plonked Kooklis,
>that is.
I've had him killfiled for years. I only see his raving when other
people quote him.
I noticed that he has recently promoted himself to "Engineer." I wonder
if that means he got a train set for Christmas?
--
Stuart Krivis
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stuart Krivis)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: Breaking into the Unix field: FreeBSD vs Linux (RH7)
Date: 11 Mar 2001 04:17:30 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 11 Mar 2001 04:34:40 +0000, Frederico S. Muñoz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
>GNU tools usually mimic the BSD tools and not their SysV counterparts
>though... although generally they tend to support both styles, that's
>probably why they have 5e2 options :) From the GNU COding Standards:
>
I'm not completely a fan of the GPL and I have seen some critiques of
GNU software that point out weird things they have done.
However, I find that GNU software is generally quite good and very
clever. There was a lot of thought put into it.
I also use GNU utilities every day, so I have to give kudos to the GNU
team.
--
Stuart Krivis
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stuart Krivis)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: Richard Stallman what a tosser, and lies about free software
Date: 11 Mar 2001 04:25:40 -0500
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:40:44 GMT, T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>enjoy his freedom. Had society insisted that all software be GPL since
>before TCP was developed, the Internet would work just fine, save a
>re-arrangement in the specifics of the business model used by the
>earliest developers. Claims that the modern world wouldn't exist but
>for BSD sound rather like Mr. Ballard's routine claims that the Internet
I feel that TCP/IP would not have been used as widely if it had been
under a more restrictive license. One could argue that it was the
widespread use of BSD software that made the Internet possible.
--
Stuart Krivis
------------------------------
From: Friedrich Dominicus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What Linux MUST DO! - Comments anyone?
Date: 11 Mar 2001 10:46:01 +0100
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bloody Viking) writes:
> Aaron Kulkis ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>
> : > The beauty of simple open file formats is that ANYONE can code a util for it
> : > without undue hardship.
>
> : Which is PRECISELY why Microsoft hates open file formats.
>
> I can rest assured that Microshit will NEVER accept my personal .dta file
> format. It's too obvious how it works. Anyone who has a fairly hard time with
> C will appreciate a supersimple file format. It makes the job of coding easier
> by far.
If it's allowed. Use read from the Lisp family and you can write
(setf foo "foo")
(defun my-fun (n) (1+ n))
It's readable and it can get parsed by read. Hard to believe isn't it
;-)
Just another exampoe for "files either the machine or I can read")
the all so marvellous Emacs
(defun load-this-file (file-name message-if-not-found)
"find file `file-name' in *xemacs-dir*, if that can not be found signal
that to the user"
(let ((options-file (concat *xemacs-dir* file-name ".elc")))
(if (not (file-exists-p options-file))
(message message-if-not-found)
(progn
(message "Loading %s ..." options-file)
(sleep-for 0.5)
(load-file options-file)))))
;; adjusted paths
(load-this-file "paths" "No extra path-adaptions")
Gosh, life could be so easy, couldn't it ;-)
Regards
Friedrich
------------------------------
From: Rex Ballard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: The new Linux economy - Re: GPL Like patents.
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:49:37 -0500
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Keep in mind that one of the functions of the GPL is that it proves
prior public disclosure
of patented ideas. The result is that one can generally safely
implement anything that
has been published under GPL.
Some classic examples include Microsoft's patents on interactive Spell
Checking (implemented
15 years PRIOR to Microsoft's patent in GNU Emacs).
mlw wrote:
>
> I have had this thought for a while, and after seeing some criticisms of GPL,
> I'm gonna post it. The original purpose of patents was to provide a mechanism
> where discoveries and inventions could be made public to advance industry. It
> had a couple purposes:
Originally, the patent was designed to protect processes and products
that required
prolonged periods to finance, manufacture, and sell. At one time, the
period from
inception to first product could be 15-18 years, leaving less than 2
years to actually
make a profit.
Software patents are a very iffy proposition. In most cases, there is a
very
thin line between patenting an idea, which isn't legal, and patenting a
process
or device. Many people want to patent someone elses expression of an
idea
simply because no prior patent exists.
> Encourage development by protecting the results of investment.
> Make public inventions so that industry can prosper.
>
> The problem today is that patents are used as a legal strategy to limit
> industry, but I digress.
Publishing and enforcing a software patent can easily backfire. For
example,
a lawsuit usually triggers a search for prior disclosure and/or the
ability
to intuitively derive the same product without prior knowledge of the
patent.
Some patents are legitimate. MD5 may have been legitimate because of
the public/private
key. But other patents are simply rip-offs of previously published
software. GPL software
is particularly targeted because there is less likelihood that anyone
will go to court
to block the patent during the application process.
One of the classics was an attempt to force every web site who used a
proxy, firewall,
or router to pay royalties for a patent applied for in 1999 that covered
any use of
one process to start another. What mad this so amusing was that it was
a direct
rip-off of the inetd process for UNIX - a techinque implemented back in
1983.
As I understand it, the Judge not only found for the defendent, but also
revoked
the plaintiff's patent.
It seems like many software patents are filed and granted almost as much
for
political favors as for any technical merit. In addition, many patents
can
be intuitively derived long before the actual patent expires. There are
several
examples of people who impemented public key encryption intuitively (PGP
among
others) without even being aware of the patented product.
> GPL is a great mechanism for providing the original spirit of patents, which I
> think was a great idea. Someone can implement a GPL program. You are free to
> use it. If you want to build upon it, you have a choice: you can contribute
> back to GPL or pay the authors.
>
> GPL provides a mechanism to properly compensate the community for the product
> of the community, i.e. contribute your modifications.
Many civilizations including the Mayans, the Egyptians, and the Chinese
had
technology that was even more sophisticated in some ways than the
technology
we have today. Many of the clues were undecipherable until only a few
years
ago.
Why was this technology lost? Perhaps it was because technology became
the
property of the religeous elite. During the inquisition, the priests of
"Christ" attempted to destroy Islam and Judaism. The rediscovery of
Islamic
text led to the "discovery" of floating point math. The revival of
Talmudic
culture led to the resurgence of Republican Democracy.
Eventually, without the "Open Source Movement", the technology of the
internet
would become like a religeon. Eventually, people would be offering
human
sacrifices to disfunctional computers because, at one time their
operators
were able to order supplies and the supplies would come. Even today
there
are isolated islands who make sacrifices to airplanes because these
islands
once recieved supply drops from airplanes that flew over the islands.
Even within Windows NT/2000 culture, we see the beginnings of
superstitions and
religeon forming as secretaries and managers retualize their use of the
computer
for fear that if they deviate from the ritual, they will get a blue
screen of death
fixed in Service Pack 2 version of Windows NT. Many corporations even
"lock down"
corporate workstations for fear that they might offend the "Red Man
Gods". (Redmond
and Gates).
> People argue that this is a form or communism, I think it is the strongest form
> of capitalism. GPL code represents a capital investment. (either time and/or
> money) If you wish to use GPL code, you MUST compensate the copyright owner. By
> releasing something GPL, the copyright owner has agreed that adequate
> compensation can consist sharing changes, OR (and this is the important part)
> you can negotiate another licensing scheme with the copyright owner.
Technically, you don't. However, if you hire a consultant to fix a bug,
that fix goes
back into GPL whether you like it or not. If you ask for customizations
to the core source
code, those custimizations must be offered back to the original author.
Furthermore, if you are a consultant who is using Open Source, you might
want to have
an agreement which gives you some priority in getting problems fixed.
This might actually
cost you some money.
There is also a food-chain. Ford pays IBM for consulting, IBM pays Red
Hat for
premium support, Red Hat pays Larry Wall for PERL support. Bugs in UNIX
code are
usually cleaned up in a few minutes or hours instead of weeks or
months. Microsoft
has left outlook and explorer vulnerable to replicator viruses for
almost 2 years
now because they don't want to give up their "right" to wire-tap user's
computers
to catch pirates (and get marketing information and corporate
strategies...).
Microsoft is still playing with a marked deck and is willing to let a
few hustlers
win a few hands rather than play with unmarked cards.
> You are free not to use GPL if you don't want too.
> You are free not to use GPL software if you don't want too.
>
> However:
>
> Don't expect any sympathy if you want to use GPL software, for free, and then
> charge for your changes. Why should you be able to capitalize on the work of
> others without sharing in the cost? Anything less WOULD be communism.
There are ways to create "clean" enhancements. For example both GNOME
and KDE
support CORBA and this can be used to cross-connect commercial orbs to
GPL orbs.
Also, shared libraries and services can be invoked but can't be "wired
in" to the
source code libraries. StarOffice and Applix-Ware are examples of
products who
play nicely with Open Source while still offering proprietary products.
The key thing to realize is that it's a bad idea to ignore or refuse to
support
Linux. Many database companies are now finding themselves in
competition with
PostgreSQL and MySQL. DeCSS was released because the DVD-CSS
organizations refused
to support Linux. Even certain Middleware is suffering because they
have ignored
Linux for too long (Linux now supports 4 CORBA ORBS). Some companies
like IBM
are preempting - offering MQSeries for Linux along with WebShere and DB2
to
accelerate support and development.
Not only is Linux and Open Source not socialistic, it has proven to be a
solid foundation
for other development. Compare SunOS 4.0 to Linux and you see that the
core infrastructure
has been pretty reliable and stable. There have been thousands of
innovations which have
improved performance, reliability, development time, security, and
overall costs,
but you didn't have to do major reengineering efforts for each upgrade.
Compare this to the MS-DOS 3.3 platform of 1987, then MS-DOS 4.0 (which
was supposed
to be multitasking :-), then MS-DOS 5.0 with Windowms 3.0, and then
Windows 3.1 with
MS-DOS 6.0 then lawsuits that forced 6.22 (and broke previous
compression tools).
We waited for 3 years for Windows NT and when NT 3.5 came out, it failed
as both a
workstation and a server. Gates then promised Chicago and the big
"innovation" was
a version of Mosaic that was literally stolen from Marc Andreeson and
the Stanford and Cornell team who contributed to NCSA.
In fact, it's been UNIX that has forced Microsoft to honor the standards
used by
the web and the net. Microsoft tried repeatedly to eliminate the open
standards
and open source, first by trying to get web browsers to accept MS-OFFICE
documents,
then later through ActiveX, VBScript, and Front-Page extensions. Had
these
non-standards been adopted Microsoft would have killed the Internet (and
the
economic growth it created). In fact, it was Linux and UNIX that fueled
the growth
and Microsoft who drained $20 billion/year out of corporations that they
could
have leveraged for 10 times the productivity.
Many companies are beginning to see the light. Windows 2000 isn't
producing the
miracles promised. It isn't even a "better UNIX than UNIX", and with
the Linux 2.4
kernel now available and most UNIX versions being compatible with Linux,
it's
becoming more and more a case of growth.
During the prep for Y2K, many corporations didn't want to rock the boat
any more
than absolutely necessary. They stayed with platforms that didn't work
because
they couldn't dedicate the time to the switch. They outsourced web
services
and hosting because they couldn't afford to police millions of lines of
COBOL code
and program Linux/UNIX servers. We saw the shift in priorities starting
about
1 year ago. Today we are seeing unprecedented growth in the Linux
market while
Microsoft is actually experiencing a slight drop in both Windows and
Office sales.
Companies are also more willing to look for customized solutions and
integration
solutions rather than the traditional "shrink-wrapped one-size-fits-all"
type solutions
offered by Microsoft.
GPL Patents shouldn't be necessary, but the GPL could should be used to
nullify patents
whenever possible.
> --
> The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time.
> The terror of their tyranny, however, is alleviated by their lack of
> consistency.
> -- Albert Einstein
> ------------------------
> http://www.mohawksoft.com
--
Rex Ballard
It Architect
http://www.open4success.com
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