Linux-Advocacy Digest #584, Volume #33 Fri, 13 Apr 01 20:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Why Linux Is Giving Microsoft a Migraine ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism) ("billh")
DEMOCRATIC VOTE TO EXECUTE SLIVERDICK--AYE:3 NAY:0 ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Communism ("billh")
Re: t. max devlin: kook (Nomen Nescio)
Re: Blame it all on Microsoft (Thaddeus L Olczyk)
Re: Need your recommendation for a full-featured text editor (Nix)
2001 USENIX Annual Technical Conference (Becca Sibrack)
Re: another example of why Linux is brain dead. ("Paolo Ciambotti")
Re: Linux on Compaq...coming this Summer. ("WGAF")
Re: NT kiddies, don't try this at home ("Paolo Ciambotti")
Re: US Navy carrier to adopt Win2k infrastructure (Bob Hauck)
Re: Something like Install Shield for Linux? (Bob Hauck)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.singles,alt.linux,alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why Linux Is Giving Microsoft a Migraine
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:32:55 -0400
Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> t. max dumbass:
> > Said Mike in alt.destroy.microsoft on Tue, 10 Apr 2001 10:56:12 -0700;
> > >Dave Martel wrote:
> > >>Mike wrote:
> > >
> > >>>The reason there is a lack of linux loaded systems in computer stores
> > >>>is that there is no market for linux loaded systems.
> > >
> > >>Chicken or the egg.
> > >
> > >Not really. A company like, say, Microsoft creates a market by making
> > >software the average dummy can use and advertising the hell out of it.
> >
> > BWAUGHGHHGPHGPH! <---the sound of vomiting.
>
> truth hurts eh?
>
> > >The average dummy cannot use linux systems and linux advertising is
> > >nil. Some percentage of computer store owners preinstalling the linux
> > >OS will not compensate for the other two deficiencies.
> >
> > The average dummy cannot use a vcr and vcr advertising is nil.
>
> the average man can use a vcr for what he bought it for - watching
> prerecorded tapes.
> the average woman can do the same.
> she just needs her boyfriend to set it up for her first.
> but he'll do it in exchange for unskilled labor.
I demand *skilled* labor.
No fucking microwave-meals.
> jackie 'anakin' tokeman
>
> men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth - more than ruin,
> more even than death
> - bertrand russell
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we
can defeat the email search bots. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "billh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,us.military.army,soc.singles
Subject: Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism)
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:33:37 GMT
"T. Max Devlin"
> Killing another human being is illegal outside of war,
Again, you are quite wrong. Killing in self-defense is quite legal in many
places, as are State executions as punishment for commission of a capital
crime. Killing outside of war is quite legal in many places.
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
misc.survivalism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.singles,alt.society.liberalism,talk.politics.guns
Subject: DEMOCRATIC VOTE TO EXECUTE SLIVERDICK--AYE:3 NAY:0
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:34:25 -0400
"James S. Cochrane" wrote:
>
> Rob Robertson wrote:
>
> > Aaron R. Kulkis wrote:
> > >
> > > Rob Robertson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gunner Š wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, 12 Apr 2001 16:47:32 -0400, "Aaron R. Kulkis"
> > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > > >Let's take a nice, Glen "Sliverdick" Yeadon style pure-democratic vote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >All for putting Glen "Sliverdick" Yeadon up against the wall, and
> > > > > >filling him full of lead, say "AYE!" All opposed, say "NAY"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Let's see how much Sliverdick likes democracy now.
> > > > >
> > > > > AYE! And I'll donate the ammo!
> > > >
> > > > Well, that's pretty silly, especially when we can use Glen's
> > > > own tax money to pay for the ammo and the firing squad.
> > > >
> > > > Thank God we live in a country founded on the principle of
> > > > inalienable, individual rights, eh?
> > >
> > > So far, we have two AYEs and zero NAYs.
> >
> > It's a qualified 'aye', of course. I wouldn't really want to vote on
> > such a thing because there are no moral grounds for doing so, but as
> > an online exercise in illustrating the inherent flaw in pure democracy,
> > I'm all for it.
> >
>
> Purely as an online rhetorical exercise in demonstrating democracy, "Aye".
>
> Julie
>
> >
> > _
> > RR
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we
can defeat the email search bots. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: "billh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,us.military.army,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Communism
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:40:10 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis"
> So, Bill,...when you gonna fess up and admit that a lot of our
> medics were deliberately shot at, in violation of the Geneva Convention.
Yawn.
------------------------------
From: Nomen Nescio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: t. max devlin: kook
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,soc.singles
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:40:12 +0200 (CEST)
aaron wrote:
> Anonymous wrote:
> >
> > t. max dumbass:
> > > Said Anonymous in alt.destroy.microsoft on Mon, 9 Apr 2001 12:23:24
> > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chad Everett) wrote:
> > > >> On Sun, 08 Apr 2001 13:24:32 -0700, GreyCloud <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> >You're correct! I've watched new secretaries trying to learn point and
> > > >> >click for the first time. Hand-eye-coordination training is needed.
> > > >> >All newbies to windows have trouble in the beginning. And then real
> > > >> >troubles later on when the crapware starts giving them fits.
> > > >>
> > > >> My good ol' Mom bought a Windows machine three years ago. She is the
> > > >> newbie of all newbies. All Windows users end of being command
> > > >> line users cause eventually they'll experience a crash or lockup
> > > >> that requires an "untidy" Windows shutdown (unplug the machine
> > > >> cause not even the "smart" power switch will work). Then,
> > > >> when the machine is rebooting they get the commandline prompt
> > > >> telling them about how Windows was shutdown is a "untidy" manner
> > > >> and you have to tell it something about what you want the
> > > >> system to do with these dangling file thing-a-ma-jigs it has found.
> > > >> This is the point where I get the call cause my good ol' Mom has
> > > >> no idea whatsoever about what she's being told and asked to make
> > > >> a decision about. The inevitable question is: "Son, why did
> > > >> the computer do this?" and the inevitable answer: Mom, it just
> > > >> Windows".... and I get this call EVERY time this happens.
> > > >
> > > >thank you for proving my point
> > >
> > > You don't have a point.
> >
> > if you can't see it you aren't quite so clever as you think.
> >
> > > >> Real user-friendly GUI scenario for a newbie, eh?
> > > >
> > > >and that makes the case for linux... how exactly?
> > >
> > > Free market competitive development beats "whatever way whoever built
> > > the proprietary crapware thinks is the right way."
> >
> > why, if that is the case, haven't the linuxoids trumped microsoft by
> > completely eradicating the command line trauma so vividly described
> > above? *
> > jackie 'anakin' tokeman
> >
> > * as you really aren't too bright i better spell this out:
> >
> > completely eradicating means that under no circumstance does the user
> > ever face the command line, no matter what they want to accomplish
>
>
> 10,000 Unix workstations at GM have ***NO*** command line available
> to the users.
understand my point and get back to me
jackie 'anakin' tokeman
incidentally, when was the last time you fucked irina?
men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth - more than ruin,
more even than death
- bertrand russell
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Thaddeus L Olczyk)
Crossposted-To: comp.theory,comp.arch,comp.object
Subject: Re: Blame it all on Microsoft
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:01:13 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:44:07 -0500, "Erik Funkenbusch"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"Thaddeus L Olczyk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> The investigation of Microsoft began under the Bush administration
>> not the Clinton administration.
>
>There was some form of investigation ongoing from about 1985+, however
>almost all of them failed to produce anything.
Actually they produced a lot. It was never acted on because Microshit
has an FTC commissioner in their hip pocket.
>
>> The judge ( Sporkin ) at the time decided that the decree was not
>> tough enough on Microsoft. DOJ ( the same people who would later
>> turn around and sue Microsoft ) went the appeals court to defend
>> the decree, and the Judge was removed and Thomas Penfield Jackson
>> ( the present judge ) was assigned the case.
>
>It's not a judges job to decide such things when the parties have reached a
>settlement.
It's not your place to say what is and is not the job of a judge.
It's Congress's place, and they say that it is part of the judges
job. It's called the Tunney act.
>> Then in 97-98 DOJ decided that Microsoft had violated that consent
>> decree. After a year of back and forth in court, this case came into
>> being. At Microsofts request the states case was joined with DOJs
>> case. You can read more details in a piece in the New York Times
>> I believe Joel Brinkley was one of the authors.
>
>No, MS was exhonerated from the claims that they violated the consent
>decree.
No. The appellate court saud they were not guilty. There is a question
whether or not the full appellate court and the Supreme Court would
have agreed.
> So, the DOJ, being the sore losers they are, decided
>to bring an entirely new lawsuit against them.
Nope. Given the amount of time and effort it would take to enforce
the consent decree, as well as the fact that Microshit would never
voluntarily behave, they decided to add the little extra effort it
took to try them for a serious crime ( since a handslap would not
be sufficient ) was not a problem. So they went for it.
>
>> They choose breakup over structural remedies,
>
>Breakup *IS* a structural remedy. You mean behavioral remedy.
>
My mistatement.
>> not because they
>> inflicted maxmimum pain, but because they were the least intrusive.
>
>It's the *MOST* intrusive.
>
That is not what Lucent employees who worked for AT&T at the time tell
me. They tell me that the behavioural remedies and regulation from
that time proved to be much more intrusive.
>> Ask anyone who works for one of the companies derived from the
>> original "Ma Bell" AT&T whether they would choose breakup
>> or behavioural remedies for a solution. (Assuming that they are
>> choosing for a company they like. ) They would all choose breakup.
>> Behavioural remedies inflict constant scrutiny from the government
>> and cast a pall over the company.
>
>Like the breakup didn't cast a pall over the company. It took 5-6 years to
>recover.
After being drained from a hundred year battle with the government.
They were exhasted for a long time before that. It took 5-6 years
for them to recover after it was finally over.
------------------------------
From: Nix <$}xinix{$@esperi.demon.co.uk>
Crossposted-To:
24hoursupport.helpdesk,alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.editors,comp.lang.java.help,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.java.softwaretools,comp.os.linux.development.system
Subject: Re: Need your recommendation for a full-featured text editor
Date: 13 Apr 2001 23:52:40 +0100
On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Thore B. Karlsen stated:
> The point is that in emacs I _have_ to write functions to
> make it liveable, whereas in other editors I can get by with just
> fiddling with a few options.
What do you find unliveable? It sounds like your ideal editor differs in
major ways from the Emacs defaults, in which case you --- or *somebody*
--- probably would have to write some code. (But it would only have to
be done once.)
> M-x customize in emacs is not enough, but in vim I can get by with only
>:options.
Not enough for what? What do you want to do? If your ideal editor is
just like vi, use vi; vi will always be a better vi than Emacs. (But
Emacs can be a better vi than vi can be an Emacs, IYSWIM. Emacs is far
more flexible.)
--
Rusks for Peace!
------------------------------
From: Becca Sibrack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: 2001 USENIX Annual Technical Conference
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:25:00 -0700
2001 USENIX Annual Technical Conference
June 25-30, 2001
Marriott Copley Place Hotel
Boston, Massachusetts, USA
http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix01/
==============================================
REGISTER BY May 25, 2001 and Save up to $200!
==============================================
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and is a place to meet peers and experts to share solutions to common
problems.
USENIX š01 offers professional-level tutorials, three technical tracks,
an AFS workshop, a GNOME developers conference, an information-laden
vendor exhibition, Birds-of-a-Feather Sessions, Work-in-Progress
Reports, parties and get-togethers for sys admins, programmers, systems
engineers and researchers.
DONšT MISS OUT! Thirty tutorials in all, seventeen brand-new. Herešs a
sampling:
-Network Programming with Perl
-Solaris Administration
-Building Linux Applications
-Large Heterogeneous Networks
-Practice Wireless IP Security
-Running Secure Web Servers
-Network Security
-Advanced Solaris Administration
-Unix Network Programming
-LDAP
Keynote address by Daniel D. Frye, Director of IBM Linux Technology
Center.
Invited Talks on WAP, IP Wireless Networking, Security Aspects of
Napster and Gnutella, Security For E-voting in Public Elections, Virtual
Machines, Online Privacy, Active Content and Secure DNS.
The USENIX Annual Technical Conference Exhibition features ~100
companies, products and services. For more information, please contact
Dana Geffner at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=====================================================================
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USENIX, the Advanced Computing Systems Association. www.usenix.org
=====================================================================
------------------------------
From: "Paolo Ciambotti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: another example of why Linux is brain dead.
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:28:44 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> "kirk@do_not_spam" wrote:
>>
>> I spend the last 3 hours trying to mount a CD on linux and finally gave
>> up. I wasted too much time. Booted windows NT, stuck the CD in, and on
>> I went to work.
>>
>
> Christ, you must be a slow typist!
>
> <detail snipped for sake of humour>
>
How strange. I can stick a CD into either of my Linux systems (Caldera or
RedHat) and I get a filemanager window. The guy could be another one of
those Slackware 3.3 users still trying to get it right, though.
------------------------------
From: "WGAF" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Linux on Compaq...coming this Summer.
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:27:25 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> WGAF wrote:
> >
> > "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > > i defend a company's right to sell products on whatever terms they
can
> > > > negotiate with vendors and consumers.
> > >
> > > Signing deals in which you siphon money from the sale of one
> > > company's product into the coffers of their competitor is ILLEGAL.
> > >
> >
> > No it's not. AMD is still paying royalties to Intel for every AMD CPU
sold.
>
> When Company A makes a deal with Company B, specifying that proceeds of
> sales of products from company C will be diverted to Company A, that's
illegal.
And when company B makes a long term contract with company A based upon the
hardware sold to get a lucrative deal on company A's product and then starts
to sell company C's product, then company B is still under a contract with
company A. And as such company B needs to fulfill their contractual
agreement with company A. You incorrectly call it "illegal", which is not if
the actual contract was made prior to company B selling company C's product.
You might call it bad decision on company B's part but that's about it. I
fail to see the illegal part.....
------------------------------
From: "Paolo Ciambotti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NT kiddies, don't try this at home
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:47:09 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "The Ghost
In The Machine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip]
>>From the original article on TechWeb -
>>
>>"[...] although missing for four years, hasn't missed a packet in all
>>that time."
>>
>>Sounds like it was working to me.
>
> Yes, it was....however, the sealed-up server was a Novell box, not an NT
> one; the speculation is how long NT would survive in such a state.
>
I interpreted your post as implying that the Novell box was DOA. Sorry
'bout that.
How long would an NT server last in the same circumstance? I of course
have my opinion, but I'd be more than willing to get some sheetrock and
some two-by-fours and volunteer our only NT server as an experiment. And
our pimple-faced MCSE as well.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: US Navy carrier to adopt Win2k infrastructure
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:43:41 GMT
On 13 Apr 2001 13:53:23 -0600, Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck) writes:
>
> > On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:34:18 GMT, Chad Myers
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > "Bob Hauck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 03:39:29 GMT, Chad Myers
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > > > SP4 was pretty good actually.
> > > >
> > > > Unless you happened to want to run Lotus Notes or one of the other apps
> > > > that stopped working after it was applied.
> >
> > > Again, this was Lotus et al's fault, not MS.
> >
> > Why of course it was. It always is someone else's fault. Rah, rah,
> > gooooo MS!
>
> You do know that Windows only crashes because of bad drivers, right?
Why sure! Everybody knows that! Chad told me so himself.
> Microsoft managed to con everyone into thinking "Device drive
> != operating system" --
Well, because they have such a large market share they can get away with
letting everyone else write drivers for them. That way they can blame
those third parties for all kinds of things.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob Hauck)
Subject: Re: Something like Install Shield for Linux?
Reply-To: bobh = haucks dot org
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:43:43 GMT
On Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:26:32 GMT, Kelsey Bjarnason
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Bob Hauck"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 11 Apr 2001 05:03:31 GMT, Kelsey Bjarnason
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Considering RPM's track record around here, it would be very difficult
> >> to do even _as_ poorly as RPM, never mind worse.
> > People argue about ways to make rpm better, and about problems with rpm,
> > but few ever contemplate replacing it with the Windows way of handling
> > installation.
>
> I don't recall suggesting replacing it with anything.
What was the point of "difficult to do _as_ poorly as RPM" then?
> Further, if I was going to suggest replacing it with "The WIndows way
> of handling installation", that would be MSI, not InstallShield.
I figured. You're starting to sound like an MS salesman. Maybe you
could get them to port it to Linux so we could see how wonderful it is.
Life is easy if you only have to deal with your own products.
> I also don't see advertising as an option in RPM, yet it's a very handy
> thing in MSI.
Ok, now you're talking about things that are just not in the perview of
RPM or any other simple package manager. RPM is for managing one
system, not rolling out over a network. This MSI is starting to sound
like something a lot more heavyweight than InstallShield or RPM.
[snip huge sales pitch]
> Now, let's see how RPM manages the following:
>
> 1) Roll out a product to 10,000 client machines
Obviously RPM is not designed to do that. There are commercial
products that are designed to do that, products that I have not
investigated because I have no need of them. Perhaps someone else does
and would be interested in continuing this with you.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| To Whom You Are Speaking
-| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
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