Linux-Advocacy Digest #699, Volume #33 Thu, 19 Apr 01 08:13:05 EDT
Contents:
Re: What's the point (Donn Miller)
Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ? (Paul Repacholi)
Re: XP = eXPerimental (Alex Strelchuk)
Re: What's the point (Nick Condon)
Re: What is 99 percent of copyright law? was Re: Richard Stallman (Tim Smith)
Re: This is a fucking miracle! CD-R Follow up story ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Perl and Tcl/Tk: How important are they? ("Edward Rosten")
Re: What's the point ("Edward Rosten")
Re: What's the point ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Re: What's the point (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: Pete Goodwin is in good company (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: What's the point (Donn Miller)
Re: Pete Goodwin is in good company (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: What's the point (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: XP = eXPerimental (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: What's the point (Matthew Gardiner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 05:35:38 -0400
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Todd wrote:
>
> Welcome to Linux.
>
> It takes endless hours to do simple things that under Windows is done
> automatically.
>
> And they say it is a conspiracy.
Not if you actually know how to USE said operating system (which, in
this case, is Linux). Windows is a complete joke, my man. You mean you
really think that DOS-based piece of crap is better than Linux? LOL!
So, Todd. Are you enjoying the speed and reliability of the excellent
FAT filesystem? You know, the one that requires weekly defragmentation?
Also, I've read some books on Windows programming. I had to laugh at
how you're supposed to code around the numerous problems in Windows,
like for example, putting a message loop in your program to allow your
app to multitask with other apps better. LOL! How come Linux doesn't
need this? How come I can format a floppy and do other things in Linux?
There are better things to judge an operating system on than the endless
ease-of-use issues, because once you've mastered the learning curve of
an OS, reliability and performance become the most important issues.
And unix filesystems are better, because your data isn't scattered all
over your disk with a linked-list data chain. You've got the inode
system with unix filesystems, which is much better than that linked-list
piece of crap you call FAT.
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Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Could Linux be used in this factory environment ?
From: Paul Repacholi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 19 Apr 2001 04:41:21 +0800
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine) writes:
> Dumb question, but .... whatever happened to the concept of
> redundancy? I'll admit it adds to expense (specifically, equipment
> and software licensing costs), but as far as I can tell, many web
> server farms using NT have just that: web server farms, with
> multiple machines; this makes the reliability quite adequate --
> maybe even 99.999 % (5 minutes/year)... :-)
> Granted, this is a far cry from industrial control processes. (How
> long does it take for nylon to harden in a tube line, just out of
> curiosity? Are we talking hours, minutes, or seconds?)
Well, you need to analyze the process to see what a 'failure' is.
EG, a phone exchange can drop its guts, and all calls without too much
drama if it is back in 5 sec or less. (generally, set up calls are not
touched, you just can't call out for a few seconds)
On the other hand, I know of a system that only failed once, but when
it did, it did not fail-safe. About $20M damage, plus lost production.
That is once in 20 odd years. But, it could be shut down with little
drama if needed for maintainance.
> Can't comment unless SCADA systems are things like those used in
> metropolitan traffic projects with gigantic status screens showing
> where every traffic light, streetcar, or train is.
System Control and Data Aquisition. The above is one example. The
Sydney trafic light system went in a 71 or 72. It has been down
ONCE since then. (and caused real hell!) 24x7, with *ZERO* downtime.
It is a dual system running in a redundent master/slave though.
RT stuff just has a few simple rules.
1 Zero means Zero, not small!
2 Never means never.
3 Always means always.
4 99% is not 1.
5 If the factory or Murphy does not get you, the operators will.
6 If 5 fails, some barstool will plasma cut it in half.
7 'Can't happen' will.
--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
------------------------------
From: Alex Strelchuk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: XP = eXPerimental
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:52:58 -0300
>
> >Linux is for people who don't have any real work to do and can spend endless
> >hours recompiling the kernel and are too cheap to pay for the real thing.
hours? never noticed such thing. u wanna like windows, use distro, that's all.
lame to use distribution, now comments.
--
[ WindowsXP? I have computer at home, at work,
all running Linux. Don't see why I need a new OS. ]
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nick Condon)
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: 19 Apr 2001 10:05:26 GMT
Eric wrote:
>So my question is, for the home user, what's the point? Has anyone
>learned Linux from the ground up just to use it at home? What's the
>advantage? I'm convinced Linux is great if you want to run a server or
>whatever, but is there a point in home users running Linux?
Linus will never deliberately cripple your MP3 performance?
--
Nick
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tim Smith)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: What is 99 percent of copyright law? was Re: Richard Stallman
Date: 19 Apr 2001 03:07:27 -0700
Reply-To: Tim Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Mon, 09 Apr 2001 04:11:07 GMT, Les Mikesell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Try to find the history of why it was necessary for RIPEM to
>duplicate the gmp library as fgmp in order to release their
>work without distribution restrictions. The only thing that
The RIPEM authors did that to make FSF happy. They didn't *have* to do
it to satisfy any legal requirements for distribution of their code, so
it was not "necessary".
--Tim Smith
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: This is a fucking miracle! CD-R Follow up story
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:49:06 +0100
> It's quite easy to use a CD-R with ide-scsi compiled in the kernel..
> Just add the following line to /etc/lilo.conf
>
> append="hdd=ide-scsi"
It's compiled in to the kernel?!
Ahhhh!. fsck me. All that bloody effort for nothing!
Oh, well. Consider it unbitched. Now I'll go and do that. Thanks :-)
I wish they would put in a list of relavent changes somewherer (not that
I ever RTFM or anything)
> But you don't have to worry about this with Redhat 7.1 . I just
> installed it and it automatically detected my CD-R and inserted that
> line for me. In fact, this was the easiest Redhat install ever.
Cool!
-Ed
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Perl and Tcl/Tk: How important are they?
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:12:54 +0100
> Hey folks,
>
> I'm a Linux newbie and I'm reading through a few books and practicing
> hands-on to learn Linux -- then Unix. A couple of the books spend quite
> a bit of time addressing scripting languages like Perl and Tcl/Tk. As a
> newbie to Linux, I'd like to get some feedback on how important these
> (or any other) scripting languages are in the real world.
Tcl/Tk is good if you want to do GUI programming. You can probably skip
it for the moment if you want.
> 1) Should I skip these and continue to learn and master the basic CLI
> commands FIRST, or learn them along w/the CLI?
I found that doing projects was the best. You learn what you need to do
the project and probably leant the things in the right quantities.
> 2) Which of these scripting languages are the most important?
> 3) Are there other important scripting languages that are also widely
> used
> that I should be aware of?
Yep. BASH is very useful (the shell scripting language) and is very
suitable (especially in conjunction with other short scripts) for a very
wide range of tasks.
PERL is not essential (I'm fine and I don't know it) but its probably
worth learning at least one text processing language, such as PERL or
AWK.
One final point to note, learn what you find most interesting. If bash
bores the pants off you, then do it in a different language, after all
the plethora of languages should make life easier and more pleasent.
-Ed
--
I spillced coffcee cincto my kcey boardc.c As a rcesulct, c's gcet
inctermixcced with cwactever I ctypce. Plcease replace mcy kceyboard.
ccthanks.
u 9 8 e j r (at) e c s . o x . a c . u k
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:07:08 +0100
> After six years of Windows and one GPF too many, I bought Redhat7 and
good for you.
> installed it. I expected a learning curve, but nothing like I ended up
> with.
> I got my cable modem, printer, cdrom drives, and daily programs going,
great so far...
> and it took me endless hours - most of them spent trying to fix my
> display resolution, only to find out the config file was XF86config-4
> and not XF86config. How the hell was I supposed to know that?
It was RH7, so why not use Xconfigurator, or setup (to get to Xco^I)?
They are as easy to use as any GUI.
> Then I started tackling my digital camera. I followed all the howtos I
> could find - no joy. And I still dealt with crappy looking fonts on my
> web browsers. And that's when I decided to throw in the towel.
Please tell me how digital cameras and web browser fonts are related. As
for web browser fonts, why not use the Windows ones? They're very good
(especially the Monotype ones). Just make sure that the bitmapped fonts
are last in the font path.
Did you read the de-uglification howto?
> After wasting 2 solid weeks of vacation time accomplishing half of what
> I could do in a few hours under windows (even with the crashes and GPFs)
> I wiped my hard drive slick and threw on Windows ME.
I think you're falling in to the trap of thinking you'll be as good with
Linux in 2 weeks as you are with windows after 6 years. You certainly
know how to challenge yourself.
> So my question is, for the home user, what's the point?
No crashes, loads of useful software for free, great for programming, no
upgrade treadmill, very configurable and you can even look at te source
code.
> Has anyone
> learned Linux from the ground up just to use it at home?
Yes.
> What's the
> advantage?
See above.
> I'm convinced Linux is great if you want to run a server or
That is true as well.
> whatever, but is there a point in home users running Linux?
See above.
> thanks - eric
-Ed
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 05:33:29 -0500
"Donn Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Not if you actually know how to USE said operating system (which, in
> this case, is Linux). Windows is a complete joke, my man. You mean you
> really think that DOS-based piece of crap is better than Linux? LOL!
> So, Todd. Are you enjoying the speed and reliability of the excellent
> FAT filesystem? You know, the one that requires weekly defragmentation?
Who uses FAT or Win9x anymore?
> Also, I've read some books on Windows programming. I had to laugh at
> how you're supposed to code around the numerous problems in Windows,
> like for example, putting a message loop in your program to allow your
> app to multitask with other apps better. LOL! How come Linux doesn't
> need this? How come I can format a floppy and do other things in Linux?
That's only the case with Windows 3.1. Windows 95 and NT do not require
message loops for multitasking.
And you can format a floppy and do other things in NT as well.
> There are better things to judge an operating system on than the endless
> ease-of-use issues, because once you've mastered the learning curve of
> an OS, reliability and performance become the most important issues.
I would have thought productivity would be.
> And unix filesystems are better, because your data isn't scattered all
> over your disk with a linked-list data chain. You've got the inode
> system with unix filesystems, which is much better than that linked-list
> piece of crap you call FAT.
But filesystems like ext2fs are far more brittle when it comes to improper
shutdowns than FAT. On large disks, fsck can take hours to complete after a
power outage, and it can lose quite a bit of data.
Where the filesystem is concerned, ext2fs users should not throw stones in
their glass house.
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:47:13 +1200
<snype>
So that must explain why my grandfather, who is 75 years old, and the
only work he has ever done was running a farm, was able to setup his fax
machine and video player by himself, he RTFM'ed.
Matthew Gardiner
--
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pete Goodwin is in good company
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:00:09 +1200
<snype>
> Can you give me a summary of this DHCP problem? For some reason our ISP
> is getting things messed up again.
>
Our old friend Pete has two network cards installed on his machine, one
using a static address, the other DHCP (my guess, for a cable modem).
Now, from there he started to bitch about KDE, then complained that KDE
apps and KDE itself kep crashing. I, however, have not experienced any
of these problems, so I suggested to him to run a memory scan, which
scan's the whole memory to check whether there are any faults. The
program can be run from the start up menu.
1st Why didn't he use YaST2? it has a very easy setup wizard to handle
it.
2nd I suggested him to upgrade his kernel to 2.4.2-4GB, which is
available for download off ftp.suse.com, reason why is because 2.4.0 had
some nasty bugs that may have effected KDE 2.1
3rd I suggested him to check his memory with the memory checker included
with SuSE Linux.
He has done neither of them, thus concluding to me that he doesnot want
Linux to succeed. In fact, I'm wondering whether he actually bought a
copy of Kylix? or is he bullshitting me?
Matthew Gardiner
--
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 07:14:50 -0400
From: Donn Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> Who uses FAT or Win9x anymore?
> That's only the case with Windows 3.1. Windows 95 and NT do not require
> message loops for multitasking.
>
> And you can format a floppy and do other things in NT as well.
Ah yes, but he did say "Windows". First, let's clarify that "Windows"
basically refers to Windows 95, 98, or ME.
> But filesystems like ext2fs are far more brittle when it comes to improper
> shutdowns than FAT. On large disks, fsck can take hours to complete after a
> power outage, and it can lose quite a bit of data.
FreeBSD is supposed to be getting background fsck for its UFS filesystem
soon. That should prove to be interesting. Supposedly, you'd be able
to use your box while fsck works behind the scenes. But that is UFS,
and UFS with softupdates is worlds better than ext2fs. But ext2fs is
still worlds better than FAT.
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------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Pete Goodwin is in good company
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:15:36 +1200
<snype>
Linux reminds me a lot of the Amiga. Small, reliable, easy to use and
fast, esp. with the new 2.4.2-4GB kernel. Hence the reason why I only
used Windows 95 for a year then quickly switched to Linux. I dabbled a
bit with BeOS, however, it lacked the applications to make it a viable
alternative to Windows. I have also tried Windows 2000 Pro and the
latest beta of Windows XP, and both suffer from the same problem, and
that is, a badly written program can still take the system down. Even
under Linux I don't have that problem. Never had Xfree86 crash on me
because I always have the latest version (4.03), and I have decent
quality components, as I always, when upgrading demand the highest
quality components, hence, I never suffer from the same stresses as the
lusers with $50 PeeCees. For what I need, Linux suites me fine. What
Pete needs to understand is the general populous use their machines for
Web surfing (aka email etc etc), writing letters and play a few games,
in fact, most people I know have a Sony Playstation that does games,
hence, Web surfing and general word-processing are the two main
purposes. Linux suites the average user fine. Once the hardware
companies such as Dell and Gateway get rid of "soft-modems" and start
using the real thing, you will find more people will be able to adopt
Linux, because that is the one thing that pisses people off, getting a
new OS, and can't get on the net. As for the fonts issue, Pete needs to
grow up and get a life. I have no problems with the fonts on Linux. It
is a non issue for me. Its either semi-quality fonts and great
reliability, or great fonts, and BSOD's left, right and centre.
Matthew Gardiner
--
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:20:42 +1200
<snype>
>
> > But filesystems like ext2fs are far more brittle when it comes to improper
> > shutdowns than FAT. On large disks, fsck can take hours to complete after a
> > power outage, and it can lose quite a bit of data.
>
> FreeBSD is supposed to be getting background fsck for its UFS filesystem
> soon. That should prove to be interesting. Supposedly, you'd be able
> to use your box while fsck works behind the scenes. But that is UFS,
> and UFS with softupdates is worlds better than ext2fs. But ext2fs is
> still worlds better than FAT.
As for ext2fs, who cares? I use ReiserFS, and I am bloody happy. It is
fast, efficient and reliable. The only commercial distro that doesn't
support it is redhat, mind you, they have always been behind in
including useful things in their distro's. Question is, why use ext2fs
when a better alternative is already available?
--
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: XP = eXPerimental
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:22:21 +1200
Ermine Todd III wrote:
> =
> Linux is for people who don't have any real work to do and can spend en=
dless
> hours recompiling the kernel and are too cheap to pay for the real thin=
g.
> =
> --ET--
> =
> "Peter K=F6hlmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > eXtra Problems
> >
> > --
> > Windows is just the instable version of Linux for users who are too
> > dumb to handle the real thing.
> >
Geeze, goto love that name. What are you Sir Ermine Todd the third of
Septic Tank? Get a fucking life!
Matthew Gardiner
-- =
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What's the point
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 23:30:42 +1200
<snype>
> > Also, I've read some books on Windows programming. I had to laugh at
> > how you're supposed to code around the numerous problems in Windows,
> > like for example, putting a message loop in your program to allow your
> > app to multitask with other apps better. LOL! How come Linux doesn't
> > need this? How come I can format a floppy and do other things in Linux?
>
> That's only the case with Windows 3.1. Windows 95 and NT do not require
> message loops for multitasking.
>
> And you can format a floppy and do other things in NT as well.
How come my Windows 2000 Pro machine comes to a screaching halt when I
print? or when I format a disk?
>
> > There are better things to judge an operating system on than the endless
> > ease-of-use issues, because once you've mastered the learning curve of
> > an OS, reliability and performance become the most important issues.
>
> I would have thought productivity would be.
What has that goto do with it? Linux is easy to use. In an office
environment all that happens is email gets sent and checked, and letters
get typed up, hence, all they need running 24/7 is Linux w/ StarOffice
5.2
>
> > And unix filesystems are better, because your data isn't scattered all
> > over your disk with a linked-list data chain. You've got the inode
> > system with unix filesystems, which is much better than that linked-list
> > piece of crap you call FAT.
>
> But filesystems like ext2fs are far more brittle when it comes to improper
> shutdowns than FAT. On large disks, fsck can take hours to complete after a
> power outage, and it can lose quite a bit of data.
>
> Where the filesystem is concerned, ext2fs users should not throw stones in
> their glass house.
I don't use ext2fs. I use Reiserfs, and yes, there are some Linux
purists who refuse to move to Reiserfs because they want to remain
commerical free, hence, they download gigs of debian crap to prove
something, aka, "look everyone I got Linux for free", when in actual
fact, I don't mind shelling out $200 for a piece of software, and as it
works out, Linux is a superior piece of software when compared to
Windows.
Matthew Gardiner
--
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
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