Linux-Advocacy Digest #928, Volume #33 Thu, 26 Apr 01 07:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft! (Rick)
Re: Impact of Internet ("Edward Rosten")
Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Baseball (Jim Ledford)
Re: Baseball (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism) ("Aaron R. Kulkis")
Re: Two articles from the register (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: Importance, or lack, of Marketshare? (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: Baseball (Chris Ahlstrom)
Re: Importance, or lack, of Marketshare? (Matthew Gardiner)
Re: Baseball (Matthew Gardiner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Justice Department LOVES Microsoft!
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:40:26 -0400
JS PL wrote:
>
> "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Daniel Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > > "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > Daniel Johnson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > > > JS PL wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > > > > Actually, IBM offered three OSes originally: MS-DOS, CP/M,
> > > > > and one other- I think it was Xenix or something like that.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > MS_DOS was low cost and the others were artificially high.
> > >
> > > Presumably their makers throught they were worth it.
> > >
> >
> > No, the costs of other OS's were artificially high. They M$ started up
> > the per preocessor licesnses. Vendos would have had to pay for -2- OS
> > licenses per machine if they bundled anything but M$ OS's
> >
> > > Can't think why.
> > >
> > > [snip]
> > > > > It was also so trivial that it bought Microsoft
> > > > > very little. It was Windows that put MS where
> > > > > they are now- but that is another story.
> > > >
> > > > It was having DOS chosen by IBM and the later per processor licenses
> > > > that did it.
> > >
> > > As I said, IBM offered three choices and MS-DOS was
> > > the one consumers favored early on. But that didn't
> > > matter much- had (say) CP/M won out, Microsoft
> > > could still have persued their Windows strategy
> > > by running Windows on CP/M.
> > >
> >
> > Yeah. Right.
> >
> > > Microsoft's volume discounts were no doubt helpful
> > > in a general way later on, but hardly a primary factor.
> > >
> >
> > Volume licenses... oh, you mean the ones that state dyou had to pay for
> > an M$ OS wether you shipped one or not.. those licenses?
> >
> > > OEMs, after all, had to be shipped volume before volume
> > > discounts made any sense for them.
> >
> > I think you should re-examine your history.
>
> YOU YOURSELF ARE CLUELESS about per-processor history! You are the one who
> should re-examine history! It has been altered by numerous "I heard" quoting
> of anti-Microsoft fanatics playing the telephone game. Let's get back to
> some actual history shall we?
>
> Microsoft began offering per processor licenses at some point in the late
> 1980s at the request of OEMs who wanted to simplify the administration of
> their per system licenses. (Kempin FTC Testimony (Exh. 9) at 96-97; Hosogi
> Dep. (Exh. 8) at 27-28; Lum Dep. (Exh. 6) at 82; Fade Dep. (Exh. 7) at
> 103-07.) Because OEMs generally change microprocessors much less frequently
> than they change other components of their systems, a per processor license
> decreased the number of contract amendments that had been necessary under a
> per system license due to system changes. (Kempin FTC Testimony (Exh. 9) at
> 96-97; Hosogi Dep. (Exh. 8) at 27-28; Fade Dep. (Exh. 7) at 103-06.)
>
> Although per processor licenses generally obligated the OEM to pay a royalty
> on every machine shipped containing a particular processor, Microsoft
> negotiated exceptions with at least twenty-seven OEMs to allow those OEMs to
> ship up to ten percent of their machines containing particular processor
> types without paying royalties on those machines. (See Kempin FTC Testimony
> (Exh. 9) at 104-05; Lum Dep. (Exh. 6) at 92; Apple Dep. (Exh. 10) at 23-24;
> Microsoft's Second Response to Department of Justice Civil Investigative
> Demand No. 10300 (excerpts attached as Exh. 21) at C001309-11.) Other OEMs
> with no such exception in their per processor licenses nonetheless offered
> non-Microsoft operating systems with their computers during the term of
> their per processor licenses. (See, e.g., Fade Dep. (Exh. 7) at 111-13;
> Roberts DOJ Decl. (Exh. 11) at C005864; Lieven Dep. (Exh. 12) at 187.)
>
> During Microsoft's 1994 fiscal year - the final year in which it offered per
> processor licenses - approximately 59% of MS-DOS units licensed by OEM
> customers were covered by per processor licenses. In fiscal year 1993,
> approximately 62% of MS-DOS units licensed by OEM customers were covered by
> per processor licenses. The prior year, Microsoft's 1992 fiscal year,
> approximately 51% of MS-DOS units licensed by OEMs were covered by per
> processor licenses. Per processor licenses made up 27% in fiscal year 1991,
> 22% in fiscal year 1990 and smaller percentages in earlier years. 2a
>
> DRI similarly attempted to combat piracy by entering into exclusive OEM
> licenses that required the OEM (unlike in Microsoft's per processor license)
> to install and pay a royalty for DR DOS on **each and every computer shipped
> by the OEM.**!!!!! (See Vasco Dep. (Exh. 14) at 125; DiCorti 7/30/98 Dep.
> (Exh. 15) at 165-71.) DRI executives have testified that these licenses were
> equivalent to per processor licenses. (DiCorti 7/30/98 Dep. (Exh. 15) at
> 357; Gunn Dep. (Exh. 16) at 165.) Numerous examples of these DRI per
> processor-type licenses are attached as exhibits to this memorandum. (See
> License Agreement with ABC Computer Co. Ltd. (Exh. 26) at C0309430;
> [REDACTED] ; License Agreement with Olidata SpA (Exh. 28) at A0228806;
> License Agreement with Athena Informatica (Exh. 29) at A0654065.) In
> addition to combating piracy, DRI had another business reason for offering
> its version of the per processor license: giving the OEM customer what it
> wanted. (Gunn Dep. (Exh. 16) at 166.) DRI pricing policies authorized price
> discounts for OEMs that elected to bundle DR DOS with every hardware unit
> shipped. (See DRI's Price List, Pricing Memoranda, and Pricing Policies
> (Exh. 30) at PC9653-54.)
Can you please tell me why Vobis was, wssentially forced into per
processor licensing, and why per processor licensing landed M$ in
trouble with the DOJ if it was so benign and so requested by vendors?
--
Rick
------------------------------
From: "Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.arch,comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.object,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.theory,misc.invest.stocks
Subject: Re: Impact of Internet
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:40:12 +0100
<snip>
Wow!
Thanks. Great post.
-Ed
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: soc.men,soc.singles,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why Linux Is no threat to Windows domination of the desktop
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:39:56 -0400
Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> aaron wrote:
> > You're either born with it (genetic), or you choose it (for whatever
> > reason).
> >
> >
> > So, homosexuality is the result of either a genetic defect, or a choice.
> >
> >
> > There are *NO* other options.
>
> not too bright are you?
>
> you see a man with no legs.
> this may be the result of:
>
> a. a genetic defect
> b. self mutilation
> c. _______________?
You're saying that homosexual BEHAVIOR is akin to amputation?
>
> jackie 'anakin' tokeman
>
> men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth - more than ruin,
> more even than death
> - bertrand russell
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we
can defeat the email search bots. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: Jim Ledford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:42:24 -0400
Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>
> >
> Bill Gates and his constant rocking/swinging on a stool when getting asked
> questions by the media? His nerdy glasses? his ability to be easily amused
> over the most basic of demostrations?
>
> Matthew Gardiner
yea, but Bill has had some pretty cool pocket protectors
over the years.
Jim Ledford
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:49:22 +1200
Jim Ledford wrote:
> Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>>
>
>> >
>> Bill Gates and his constant rocking/swinging on a stool when getting
>> asked questions by the media? His nerdy glasses? his ability to be easily
>> amused over the most basic of demostrations?
>>
>> Matthew Gardiner
>
> yea, but Bill has had some pretty cool pocket protectors
> over the years.
>
> Jim Ledford
>
Look at the type of people who buy Microsoft products, normally those who
are easily ammused by programs like "when animals attack" or "when building
collapse". The typical twits that get easily sucked into idealistics clap
trap excreted by parties such as Alliance and Labour in New Zealand. The
average person is as thick as two short planks. You see idiocy every day.
People crossing train tracks, kids running onto the road, people smoking,
drinking and eating excessively. Unfortunately, the world is full or
morons, and whats more frightening, they are going to be the future *GASP*
Matthew Gardiner
--
Disclaimer:
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
From: "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,us.military.army,soc.singles
Subject: Re: OT: Treason (was Re: Communism)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:49:49 -0400
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Roberto Alsina
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
> on 23 Apr 2001 12:50:16 GMT
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 06:48:22 -0400, Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>Roberto Alsina wrote:
> >>>
> >>> billh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >"Roberto Alsina"
> >>> >
> >>> >> I personally believe any killing not in self defense, including
> >>> >> killing at war, should be considered murder.
> >>> >
> >>> >You need to mature and understand that truth and reality aren't what you
> >>> >"personally believe".
> >>>
> >>> I understand what the situation currently is.
> >>> However, that doesn´t mean I think that situation is perfect,
> >>> or even very good.
> >>>
> >>> Sadly, we have been, as a society, convinced by the men with
> >>> guns that they have a right to kill.
> >>
> >>My house has over half a dozen guns, and ammunition for each,
> >>and I haven't been convinced that I have any "right to kill"
> >
> >Why do you have lethal weapons?
> >If the answer is "to defend myself", who would you be defending
> >yourself against?
>
> Well, for starters, the sad gits who seem to think that
> what's his is theirs and are willing to pry open a window,
> jimmy a door, or otherwise gain entry without his consent....
>
> This doesn't mean he has to shoot them, of course. Brandishing
> a firearm will probably frighten them off; if it doesn't of course,
> then he can pull the trigger. (One hopes said cowardly would-be
> burglar has a brain slightly bigger than the size of a turnip, thinks
> about it, and flees. On the other hand, there's enough dumb
> criminals out there that there are websites and TV shows dedicated
> to their less-than-stellar intellectual pursuits.)
>
> Ideally, of course, said criminal would not be one. Ideally,
> Aaron would be a millionaire, owning a mansion and a yacht.
Your typical UAW worker already owns both a mansion and a yacht.
> (Ideally, *I* would be a millionaire, owning...) Ideally,
> world peace would break out all over, there would be no
> power problems (of any sort), and everyone would live
> happily ever after.
>
> But this ain't an ideal world.
>
> >
> >--
> >Roberto Alsina
> >
>
> --
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
> EAC code #191 9d:11h:34m actually running Linux.
> Hi. What's your sign? Mine's "Out To Lunch".
--
Aaron R. Kulkis
Unix Systems Engineer
DNRC Minister of all I survey
ICQ # 3056642
L: This seems to have reduced my spam. Maybe if everyone does it we
can defeat the email search bots. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
K: Truth in advertising:
Left Wing Extremists Charles Schumer and Donna Shalala,
Black Seperatist Anti-Semite Louis Farrakhan,
Special Interest Sierra Club,
Anarchist Members of the ACLU
Left Wing Corporate Extremist Ted Turner
The Drunken Woman Killer Ted Kennedy
Grass Roots Pro-Gun movement,
J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
you are lazy, stupid people"
G: Knackos...you're a retard.
F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
her behavior improves.
D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
...despite (C) above.
C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
direction that she doesn't like.
A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Two articles from the register
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:51:43 +1200
Donal K. Fellows wrote:
> Matthew Gardiner wrote:
>> Oh, and regards to the TCP rappers, it wasn't a security hole, it was a
> [...] ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Please put in "w" characters where appropriate, or face syncopated
> IP packets with bad attitude... :^)
>
> Donal.
And end up with the stack output log being in a cryptic lingo that nobody
understands apart from the bro's in the crib. :)
Matthew Gardiner
--
Disclaimer:
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Importance, or lack, of Marketshare?
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:57:36 +1200
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
> "pip" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>
>> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>> > It's more than just number of users. There has to be a viable market
>> > as
>> > well. Many software developers don't see the Linux market as viable
> even
>> > though it probably has enough users to otherwise make it so (if it were
> a
>> > closed source platform, like the Mac).
>>
>> What is a viable market? I am a developer and I DO see a viable market
>> in the server space. I do think that the desktop space needs a lot more
>> work for "average" users, but even now there is still a BIG market if
>> you can find the right product.
>
> Server space yes, and this is primarily where Linux is currently getting
> the vast majority of its "shrink wrap" support.
>
> Desktop still has yet to be seen. Companies like Eazel are not doing
> well,
> while companies like Loki are barely getting by. "Breaking even" is not a
> quality for a viable market. Profit is.
>
>> > The reason is that Linux users are always screaming about price, and
>> > how
>> > things are free. ISV's see this as "Nobody wants to pay for software,
> and
>> > I'm not going to write it for charity".
>>
>> Linux users DON'T talk about price - they talk about freedom.
>
> Strange, but i've read hundreds of messages here bitching about the price
> of
> Office, Windows, license consts, etc. Many Linux users *DO* talk about
> price as their prime motivating factor.
>
>> Most of us
>> have wads of cash for the right products: hardware OR software. In fact
>> for many users of Linux (such as in business networking) price is not
>> even a consideration. But I do take the point that many companies are
>> not well informed about this distinction and are put off by this. Many
>> companies have a far too simplistic model of how to make money from open
>> software and therefore just do not examine the potential or they even
>> think that they _must_ produce open software.
>
> There are very few companies in the Linux market that are even "breaking
> even". Just recently, everyone cheered when Red Hat said they
> "effectively"
> broke even, and Red Hat is the largest of the group. We've seen the
> failures of non-german SuSE, Stormix, and many other Linux vendors.
I complain when products are sold at $1300, for an Office Suite! when
Wordperfect suites all my needs, and it is sold at 1/2 the price. You do
the math, and work it out. The most I have ever paid for piece of sofware
was $900 for Corel Draw 9 for Windows 2000. $800 for Windows 2000 Pro, $800
for a flaming OS! if that isn't highway robbery, then I don't know what is!
For $184 I have SuSE Linux 7.1, a complete OS, with applications, support
etc. I would also be interested in the number of users who casually let
their mates borrow their copy of Office and Windows, because it is clear
that not all people have that sort of money, yet I know so many with a
"back up version" sitting at their house.
Matthew Gardiner
--
Disclaimer:
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
From: Chris Ahlstrom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:03:46 GMT
Nomen Nescio wrote:
>
> there's some interesting speculation regarding the connection between
> autism and nerdishness.
> jackie 'anakin' tokeman
>
> i don't know what made me think of that
Gotta go to KMart, get my underwear.
Gotta go to KMart, get my underwear.
Gotta go to KMart, get my underwear.
Gotta go to KMart, get my underwear.
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Importance, or lack, of Marketshare?
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:05:58 +1200
> It does have a ring of truth to this. However, our local communities'
> problem is getting a good stable O/S for home use that isn't expensive
> and yet have good quality software that isn't too expensive that one
> could use a few years. My neighbors don't want crashes and freezes that
> happen three or four times a day.
> We are willing to pay. Its really a wonder why anyone hasn't pushed the
> Moss-Magnusen Warranty act on Microsoft.
>
Also take in account that the average salary in New Zealand is $22,000, and
most people have to prioritise, either by a ligit copy of Windows at $300
or pay the rent. Most people would rather pay the rent. Hence Microsoft
is the cause of the digital divide. Go into a store, take $300 off the
price of the computer and you have the price of the computer without
Windows, and in some cases, it could mean the difference of a computer
being sold or not.
Matthew Gardiner
--
Disclaimer:
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
From: Matthew Gardiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,soc.singles
Subject: Re: Baseball
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:06:41 +1200
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>
>> there's some interesting speculation regarding the connection between
>> autism and nerdishness.
>> jackie 'anakin' tokeman
>>
>> i don't know what made me think of that
>
> Gotta go to KMart, get my underwear.
> Gotta go to KMart, get my underwear.
> Gotta go to KMart, get my underwear.
> Gotta go to KMart, get my underwear.
>
*shudder* *shudder*
Matthew Gardiner
--
Disclaimer:
I am the resident BOFH (Bastard Operator From Hell)
If you don't like it, you can go [# rm -rf /home/luser] yourself
Running SuSE Linux 7.1
The best of German engineering, now in software form
------------------------------
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