----- Original Message ----- From: "Shlomi Fish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ez-Aton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Adir Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Orr Dunkelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Orna Agmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Alon Altman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Tzafrir Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Benny G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Guy Keren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mulix" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Eli Billauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Yariv Ido" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 3:09 PM Subject: Re: Making Linux Look Harder Than What It Is (or: Why do newbies still have a hard time after a 'deep' explanation?)
> On Sun, 9 Dec 2001, Ez-Aton wrote: > > > I like the article. It sounds great, but there are few points where I > > disagree, > > > > First: Did anyone write GUI frontend to configure, make, and make install? > > As long as no one ever had, people *willl have to* use command line. RPMs > > are great, and simple, but sometimes their dependencies list is way over the > > head... (X for Vi? Why?) > > > > That's what urpmi/MandrakeUpdate or apt-rpm is for. If RH does not have > it, that's a distro problem, not something that is inherent in Linux. > Not good enough. It's not "Setup", and, especially in MDK, you will not always find an RPM for any and every program you want. However, do the configure; make; make install thing, and you covered about 90% of the programs you could ever think of installing. > > Second: As long as anything works like charm, great. You put the CD in, and > > go to it, and walla! You access it, but when troubles are on teh horizon, > > and it doesn't work, someone should make a "mount/umount" icon on your > > desktop, or just teach you to use these commands (mount /dev/cdrom, and > > eject), and explain why sometimes it won't work (you're in that directory, > > bob, so you cannot eject. Yeah, it's the way things are there...). > > > > I think KDE 2.something supports such a thing. > I have KDE2, and it's not built in. Lets say you accidently deleted the "CDROM" icon. It happens (like any shortcut, right?). Well, now re-create it... It's not simple. The mounting/umounting thing was an example, but not the only example. It's just that when everything works fine, great, but in many cases it does not (and the automount part was an example, since it is a common problem). When thigns go messie, you need command line (and that was the point), and things tend to go messie... > > Third: Flash on Netscape (Not on Linux alone) looks different. Sometimes, > > things will not look exactly as they should. Why? Donno, Macromedia has > > solutions... not me. > > > > Again, not something inherent to Linux or Linux' fault. By virtue of the > Church-Rosser theorem Linux can display Flash just as well as Windows > It doesn't matter. Most of the people in the world use IE. They need an alternative. I'm affraid Netscape is a poor alternative, and Opera is not a complete one, yet. Konqueror? Far from it. Flash was an example, taken from the article. Flash sux on NS, and it's not because it's Linux, but because it's NS. What does it matter, anyhow, as long as it sux? > > Conclusion: As long as the system is running perfectly (and we know there is > > no such thing, at least not for any great lenth of time) you do not need any > > command line at all. Command line is for geeks, you say, and you're quite > > right. But how many of you ever tried setting up Kppp, and it worked on the > > first time? At least on MDK7.0,7.1,7.2 it usually went segfault, and you had > > to create the conf files manually, and then it worked. I don't know MDK8.0 > > (which he reffers to)... but it's an example. Were life perfect, and open > > source programs were *always* bug free, we would have been unemployed. > > However, most of us still have work, so it's probably that it will take some > > time till this otopic world would exists (maybe short time after there will > > be peace in the area, or something). Command line becomes required when you > > need to install things which do not come in RPM format, or as workaround to > > wierd problems no one really's into solving (automount is the famous of > > them). > > > > I set up kppp (back on MDK 7.2 I believe) and it worked on the first time. > But then I switched to ADSL, and now from some reason the POTS connection > does not work at all. I don't invest much time in trying to correct it, > out of lack of motivation. > See? You will have to use console after all. Not that Kppp is bad, it just does not allow you the complete, omnipotent control you can gain with any console tools. It's not that this omnipotence is vital to life, or to basic functioning, but among the great things you can find in Linux, console omnipotence is of the greatests (I see it that way, at least). It allows you troubleshooting, solving, and understanding beyond anything you could ever archive on a windows machine. It gives you the full control, the Godhood, which allows you to choose your GUI, your preffered tools, the way these tools work, and complete understanding of your hardware (show me please the GUI tools to configure TV card?). It allows you to customize your system to the finest detail, exactly as you want it. It's soooo different from Windows concepts, that, although GUI tools are there, we should "show the light" to those who come to the system, and allow them to see beyond the basic usage, (although not right away), to the cords of power every user and every root on Linux system hold. It's not that it's VI's time everytime you need to enter username for the system (GUI tools are faster), but it's for the knowledge and power, that it can be done, and it is quite not as bad as it seems to any windows GUI user. It's just that it is part of understanding the system better (and thus, making it work better). > > Second conclusion: We should also learn the GUI tools. Indeed simplify life > > here and there :-) > > > > I think so too. However, I think we should also tell newbies not to fear > the command line. This approach would be much more constructive in the > long run. > It's hard to show the power of the command line to a windows user. It's hard, because the non graphical window is scary, and it's an unknown realm. It should be brought slowly, but it should be shown to them, as a tool of work, and not as target work. > Regards, > > Shlomi Fish > > There is no IGLU Cabal! It was impossible to construct one using GUI tools > only. > Ez. > > Ez. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Adir Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Orr Dunkelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: "Orna Agmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Alon Altman" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Shlomi Fish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > "Tzafrir Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Benny G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Guy > > Keren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mulix" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Eli > > Billauer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Ez-Aton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Yariv > > Ido" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 11:01 AM > > Subject: Making Linux Look Harder Than What It Is (or: Why do newbies still > > have a hard time after a 'deep' explanation?) > > > > > > > Hi all > > > > > > I've read this very interesting article, and figured out that it describes > > > our main problem, in some of the lectures we give, and in Linux parties > > > (sometimes an installation takes too long, and not because of a unique > > > hardware device). > > > It's about Gurus who teach new users about Linux - the problems, the > > > suggestions, and the simple solutions. I really recommend you to read > > > it, as we might learn something from it. The article itself is very > > > interesting and joy to read. Tell me what you think: > > > > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23245.html > > > > > > Best regards. > > > > > > -- > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > > Adir Abraham > > > Technion's Advisors Group and Public PC Farms Manager > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Haifa, Israel > > > ICQ# 1841481 > > > Cel# +972-53-243438, +972-55-481245 > > > KeyID: 0xD8DC85C7 Fingerprint: 138D 8F41 7A06 44A0 3DBB 9DC3 FE8B 2658 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > > Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com> > > > > > > mQEPAzLax/sAAAEIAK2bI8utornDYd5LdU+/TABNmqXneiXuLx4j8OKD2GjfS/O8 > > > E6nrX69ot4uU5ryjp5h+7VHBZqCQz+8VC8ly2ANtycejAc82gllVC96fbA+Y6uuN > > > uI9aXkwNqhphmmQZIVaOZDRAo9//1zX9r41xY+8rKSQuNcp+FPD/A5Itng0xhsfS > > > KkCV4tT0mGpiydUHFrugk/bouXPYwUHXSnHp/mPdGsjgqipezHPzCWIn3xcJjk2/ > > > tjd5/ym+arWpKW5nvTuvalcMi2DIcEilSrT5NLwgeuh3eqitYOc9WTiMNMvUiVcP > > > sucJkdxNwjEX9MgD/bLY9wT/13brqxk71tjchccAEQEAAbQnQWRpciBBYnJhaGFt > > > IDxhZGlyQHZpcGUudGVjaG5pb24uYWMuaWw+iQEVAwUQMtrH+6sZO9bY3IXHAQGb > > > 0gf9FwrJBKaTP0yvf3+vwtB+9ftS0woz1TawJwflC5EoHJs7D/5GzkAaRV82RSkH > > > P9fSHmM+LUB0huBBK1qtNyXHWIjQTmYwFYC8Oen4q0Fyze7cloSnpD1rVjI0HoCO > > > UU8bbz0Iseizdjhnl2PTItQ+dkKzLcww1jW5iPXOWd1o8/8s2aebhrpDRO8BfAYg > > > H29jhmDtuVQDPgFfkN/kP+xpHQplMN5Qh1oP22f+Wyg8sVvSv8P7cM+88u46FHi3 > > > zvHpVnZKIBtKhksnH1PYXtz7FvS7vA+MbpM47kgmQGL5Ygig0pUUbBCGlzmg2Hvd > > > 262YCdVYNwpIjQWBLJI8orea0Q== > > > =dgNP > > > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > > > > > > -- > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ > Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > If: > 1. A is A > 2. A is not not-A > does it imply that > 1. B is B > 2. B is not not-B > ================================================================= To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
