Linux-Misc Digest #564, Volume #24 Mon, 22 May 00 22:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Soft RAID vs. SuSE? (Mark(un-MASKForsyth))
Re: SCSI devices and SMP kernels (Juergen Pfann)
Re: time sychronisation on Linux/NT (John in SD)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux (David T. Blake)
Re: afio backup-Did I stump everyone or miss something really obvious??? (Nick
Garigliano)
Re: Top ten Linux sites ("Dan")
RedHat 6.2 and X 'start' menu programs (Chris)
Sendmail migration ??? ("Benson Lei")
NFS or RPC Error? (Jeff Silverman)
Re: Weaknesses of Red Hat? (John Hasler)
Re: time sychronisation on Linux/NT (Bob Martin)
Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Tired of spam! (Christopher Browne)
Re: Slackware or Debian (Christopher Browne)
Re: Weaknesses of Red Hat? (Christopher Browne)
Re: Debian and X (Christopher Browne)
Re: Multiple OS's for software testing (Robert Heller)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark(un-MASK)Forsyth)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.hardware,comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: Soft RAID vs. SuSE?
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:20:45 +1000
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sun, 21 May 2000 23:15:47 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi, i got the following Problem:
>
>I´m using SuSE 6.4 with the SuSE Kernel (cause im to lazy to patch on my
>own ;-) ) 2.2.14.
>Now i try to setup an RAID on 4 SCSI Disks, with the "raidtools", but it
>doesn´t work, mkraid md0 exit with
>
>" analyzing super-block
>disk 0: /dev/sda1, 4401778kB, raid superblock at 4401664kB
>disk 1: /dev/sdb1, 4401778kB, raid superblock at 4401664kB
>disk 2: /dev/sdc1, 4401778kB, raid superblock at 4401664kB
>disk 3: /dev/sdd1, 4401778kB, raid superblock at 4401664kB
>mkraid: aborted, see the syslog and /proc/mdstat for potential clues"
>
So what was in syslog and /proc/mdstat ?????
May help unearth an answer.
>The SuSE-Kernel is patched for RAID, i think, because all of the raid
>extensions are available at configtime.
>
>Please help, I need help as fast as possible cause of missing space
>
>Thanx a lot
>
>Sven Holz
--
Mark F...
unMASK for e-mail
------------------------------
From: Juergen Pfann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.setup
Subject: Re: SCSI devices and SMP kernels
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 02:24:35 +0200
Johan Kullstam wrote:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael Borgwardt) writes:
>
> > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > Eric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > you). try making a /boot partition that is entirely below cylinder 1024,
> > > it doesn't have to be large (20 MB is enough) but it will be a working
> > > solution.
> >
> > 20MB? If you aren't going to be kernel-hacking madly, 5MB is plenty for
> > /boot!
>
> a 13GB eide drive costs us$130 these days. that's a penny a
> megabyte. 20 cents for 20MB is chump change.
As most large drives use (in LBA mode) 255 heads/63 sectors logical
mappings, I'd suggest (for partitioning issues) to think in cylinders
of 8 megs each, cause that would be the boundaries of fdisk anyway.
So to me, neither 5 nor 20 MB seems sensible, but 8, 16, or 24,
for example.
Just my 2c
Juergen
------------------------------
From: John in SD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: time sychronisation on Linux/NT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:26:05 GMT
>You can find out everything you need to at:
>http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/
Excellent source for NTP. Then I found it in my RedHat distributions.
I synchronize my firewall (cable modem) to the UCSD computing center
timeserver, then the Linux and Win boxes are synchronized to the server.
The Linux boxes use NTP; and the Win box uses Aachron.
--John
LILO version 21.4.3 (06-May-2000) source at
ftp: sd.dynhost.com dir: /pub/linux/lilo
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David T. Blake)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
Date: 22 May 2000 13:02:19 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
David Steuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David T. Blake) writes:
>
> ' David Steuber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> '
> ' > What TrollTech is currently doing with Qt 2.x and higher is a
> ' > good thing. People who produce GPL software can use Qt without
> ' > worrying about the QPL.
> '
> ' That is not even close to true. Trolltech has rights to a copy
> ' of everything that even links with QT. They could EASILY take
> ' your QT linked code, and fold it into proprietary software.
>
> http://www.trolltech.com/products/download/freelicense/
>
> Show me where in this license TrollTech can take GPL code that links
> to Qt and make it proprietary.
Section 3b) (on modifications to QT)
When modifications to the Software are released under this
license, a non-exclusive royalty-free right is granted to the
initial developer of the Software to distribute your modification.
And section 5c) (on linking to QT)
If the items are not available to the general public, and the
initial developer of the Software requests a copy of the items,
then you must supply one.
You can note that there are no restrictions on this copy being
made available, no licensing issues mentioned. QT has quietly
assured themselves of the right to have a copy to every program
that modifies or links to QT. Especially in the case of 5c
it is not at all clear that they need to stick to ANY license
in how they use it. Fair use would certainly allow them to
use substantial chunks of such code however they like. Either
your program is open and GPL, or they have (some) rights to it.
Things like this bother me. Why can't the author of a program
that links to QT have as many rights as the library authors ??
They clearly do not right now.
--
Dave Blake
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Nick Garigliano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: afio backup-Did I stump everyone or miss something really obvious???
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:25:52 -0500
I even tried tar and it whacked the fs also. Same problems when backing
up to a paritition on a scsi drive.
Can't anyone help????? (Does that sound pathetic or what)
Nick Garigliano wrote:
> I'm trying to do an afio backup of my redhat 6.2 system to a 1 gb scsi
> jazz drive. Here are the steps that I'm using:
>
> - cfdisk to create a primary Linux partition (use entire disk)
> - mke2fs to create an ext2 fs on the disk. Disk mounts and can copy
> to it.
> - from root dir "find . -path '/proc' -prune -o -print | afio -o -z
> -Z -v /dev/sdb1"
>
> The backup runs and writes to the disk but at the end the disk can't be
> read. Running e2fsck reports that there is no file or directory while
> trying to open /dev/sdb1 and then suggests an alternative superblock.
> Try that and it reports a whole bunch of bad inodes. I've tried several
> variations such as setting the block size in both mke2fs and afio to
> 1024, running the backup with dev/sdb1 mounted and unmounted, doing the
> backup on a small sub directory to ensure that the archive isn't bigger
> than 1 gb and some other things that I can't really remember.
>
> One thing that seems odd is that cfdisk (and fdisk) will not let me
> change the partition fs type to ext2. After mke2fs it is listed as
> ext2, but after trying the backup it is listed as Linux again. I
> haven't tried tar yet because I've developed a serious fixation on afio
> and need help!!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nick
------------------------------
From: "Dan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: linux.dev.apps,linux.misc
Subject: Re: Top ten Linux sites
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 11:32:46 +1000
Nope.
For a start, Linuxberg is listed under Tucows Linux.
Secondly, Linuxcare is at the top.
Other problems:
What about the kernel?
Xfree86?
Some Window Managers?
I think this list was assembled by a Windows user, for other Windows users.
Dan
Editor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Top ten Linux sites according to PC World and TenLinks.com:
> http://www.tenlinks.com/Computers/Software/linux.htm
> Do you agree? Let us know.
>
> Editor
> www.tenlinks.com - the Ultimate Technology Directory
>
>
------------------------------
From: Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RedHat 6.2 and X 'start' menu programs
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:30:07 GMT
I have recently installed Red Hat 6.2 and the Gnome desktop on a
computer. I was wondering how to not allow new users to use certain apps
that are available. Specifically, I want to not allow the use of games to
certain users. I could track them down and change permissions, but I
don't even want them to see the game are there. Is there a way to change
the 'start' mene programs?
Thanks
Chris
--
Posted via CNET Help.com
http://www.help.com/
------------------------------
From: "Benson Lei" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Sendmail migration ???
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:39:02 -0700
Hi,
anybody knows how to migrate the sendmail & all personel mails from a
machine to another ???
Thank you for your help.
------------------------------
From: Jeff Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: NFS or RPC Error?
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:20:31 -0700
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hi,
I am running NFS, NIS and AMD on a RedHat 6.2 machine and I keep getting
this error message:
svc: unkown version (3)
I have compiled the latest stable kernel but I keep getting the same
error message. Has anyone ever seen this error message before and know
what causes it?
Thanks
--
Jeff Silverman, sysadmin for the Research Computing Systems (RCS)
University of Washington, School of Engineering, Electrical Engineering Dept.
Box 352500, Seattle, WA, 98125-2500
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://rcs.ee.washington.edu/BRL/people/jeffs/
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Hi,
<p>I am running NFS, NIS and AMD on a RedHat 6.2 machine and I keep getting
this error message:
<p>svc: unkown version (3)
<p>I have compiled the latest stable kernel but I keep getting the same
error message. Has anyone ever seen this error message before and know
what causes it?
<p>Thanks
<br>
<pre>--
Jeff Silverman, sysadmin for the Research Computing Systems (RCS)
University of Washington, School of Engineering, Electrical Engineering Dept.
Box 352500, Seattle, WA, 98125-2500
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<A
HREF="http://rcs.ee.washington.edu/BRL/people/jeffs/">http://rcs.ee.washington.edu/BRL/people/jeffs/</A></pre>
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------------------------------
From: John Hasler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Weaknesses of Red Hat?
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:52:10 GMT
Rodney writes:
> I didn't like Debian because it looks like they are changing the standard
> around too much.
Changing what standard in what way? Debian endeavors to adhere as strictly
as possible to standards.
--
John Hasler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dancing Horse Hill
Elmwood, Wisconsin
------------------------------
From: Bob Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: time sychronisation on Linux/NT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:50:18 -0500
"Thaddeus L. Olczyk" wrote:
>
> I want to synchronise times on a LAN with some official site.
> I want to do this with both NT and Linux.
> Right now I am sychronising my NT/98 boxes using AnalogX.
> My connection through the net is an NT box.
> In the future that will be changed to a linux box ( when I get
> broadband ). Can anyone suggest software?
rdate -s time.nist.gov
you can set this up as a cron job to run a specified time.
--
Bob Martin
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.os.linux.setup,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need ideas for university funded project for linux
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:56:56 GMT
Followups set to colda.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows) writes:
I thought I'd seen you here before!
> > I much, much, much prefer being able to right-click on something and
> > hit "Properties." I also like being able to press F1 when the mouse
> > is over a confusing field and get an explanation of it. (The
> > explanation often isn't a help, and I expect that would carry over
> > to Linux, but at least there's no flipping around between screens.)
> Agreed. The right-button and F1 idioms are good ones, as are button
> bars on apps and scrollwheels on mice. Writing decent documentation
> is a different skill to writing a decent GUI. I have yet to meet
> anyone at all who was good at both in the same application.
The problem is, of course, that the programmer usually knows far too
much about the application to be able to strip out the bits that
nobody else cares about. When I try to write documentation, about 3/4
of it usually ends up being an in-depth description, complete with
code examples, of the internal aspects I find most interesting.
> [attribution lost]
Oops. Sorry.
> >> This is the problem though, they don't care enough to create
> >> programs to help newbies install and use linux and so linux is
> >> being held back.
> > I care enough. I'm just no good at GUI programming.
> It isn't that hard with something like Tcl/Tk, Perl/Tk or TkInter.
Yeah, I know. But either way, I have to learn Tcl, Perl, C, or what
have you, as well as the toolkit it uses. If I want to use GNOME,
which I do, I have to learn IDL, too. (Actually, I know that already,
via SOM.)
> You just have to remember that users aren't necessarily going to work
> through things the same way you do, that they want *both* mouse and
> keyboard navigation, plenty of help and a chance to undo things where
> possible (and a really hefty warning where you can't undo!)
With decent development tools, keyboard shortcuts are absolutely
trivial. The bitch-ass part is implementing a proper (meaning
multi-level) undo.
--
Eric P. McCoy ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
non-combatant, n. A dead Quaker.
- Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Tired of spam!
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:57:14 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Mark Wilden would say:
>John McKown wrote:
>>
>> It's that sort of "it depends?". I don't know, but it is possible that people
>> here use Internet Explorer + Outlook. There may be some sort of script that
>> could be run at the Web site to capture that information. I'm not really sure.
>
>I'm sure. :) If Microsoft rigged things so that Web pages could grab
>people's emails automatically, it would be front page news (so to
>speak). There are a lot of Web site owners who would love this
>capability, but they have to ask you explicitly for your email.
>
>The user's email is simply not part of the information that HTTP knows
>about. That's not only a privacy issue, but a technical one. How could a
>Web browser, in general, even know what a user's email is?
>
>HTTP does know the domain from which a request is being made, though.
<http://www.junkbusters.com/cgi-bin/privacy> shows off things that may
be tracked from what your web browser reports to the remote site.
This includes:
- HTTP referer
- Remote address
- Remote host
- User Agent
- HTTP From
- REMOTE_USER
- REMOTE_IDENT
See RFC 2616 for considerably more details.
<ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2616.txt>
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/http.html>
Consciousness - that annoying time between naps.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Slackware or Debian
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:57:18 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Johan Kullstam would say:
>"Ruben Haugan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> I have been using RH 6.0 for some time now, but I`m not satisfied with it,
>> so I`m going to change distribution soon. My problem is that I can`t decide
>> whether to choose Debian or Slackware...
>>
>> Debian is the only "distro" made by an organization, not a commercial
>> company, and it it developed entirely by volunteers via the net. That really
>> appeals to me. Slackwares' "mission" is to provide the most "UNIX-like"
>> linux distro, without all the fuzz, so that you *learn* the linuxsystem from
>> the bottom. That also appeals to me.
>>
>> So... I need some help on this one. Can someone who uses Debian or Slackware
>> tell me a little about the benefits and the problems - simply pros and
>> cons - of these distributions?
>
>first off, there is less difference amonst them than most people seem
>to believe.
>1) they are all linux kernel with gnu tools.
>2) you can install most anything by downloading source, configuring,
> running make &c, in *any* distribution.
>3) no distribution prevents you from diving into configuration and
> editing it yourself.
How about counterpoint?
- I do agree that they all use the Linux kernel, with GNU tools, as
well as a considerable grouping of "otherly-licensed" tools (e.g. -
Perl, Python, Apache, ...) that "pluck from the same streams of
source code."
- On the other hand, vis-a-vis installation, system configuration, and
systems maintenance, they all maintain _quite distinct_ sets of
code:
- Red Hat, Caldera, Mandrake, SuSE, TurboLinux, Corel, StormLinux
_ALL_ provide quite customized tools for all these things, tools
that are not directly usable on the "other guys' distributions."
- Linuxconf, which RHAT supports, also has the ability to run on
Debian. Whether it's more generally usable than that is anybody's
guess.
- Give another year and there will likely be an RPM front end that
looks a _whopping lot_ like "InstallShield." The GUIed install
tools used to install Red Hat, Caldera, Mandrake, Corel, and
StormLinux provide much this "look" for the initial install; it is
likely that GnoRPM, Kpackage, PURP, and such, will get
"prettified" over the next year or so...
- In contrast, Slackware and *BSD have traditionally eschewed having
_much_ in the way of such tools, expecting that the gentle user
will "pluck from some stream of source code" whatever admin tools
they wish to use.
Slackware and Debian share the fact of not having a "venture capital"
department to pay them to produce "barneyfied" install processes, with
the attendant memory/disk bloat that results.
I'm getting quite convinced that there's a persistent need for them;
there is a distinct place in the world for "mechanics-required"
distributions.
Over the last year, the local LUG (NTLUG) has been inundated with
newbies that have assortedly "fallen in love" with Mandrake, Red Hat
6.x, and SuSE.
Unfortunately, we're now noticing the pedagogical problems with their
"friendly install" schemes, which is that they don't:
a) provide much ability to really track what is going on at install
time, so that those users don't _initially_ learn what's going on
when they (for instance) configure their network, and
b) provide much ability to remedy things after install time, thus
meaning that if you need to do anything much to reconfigure the
system, the "easy way" is to basically reinstall Linux from
scratch.
In effect, they:
- Don't learn anything below the veneer of the install tools, and
- Become pretty "install-happy."
Which has remarkable parallels to the Win9x thing of needing to
reinstall every few months.
The _reasons_ may be a bit different; there is not the same forcible
_need_ to reinstall to clean up the horrid state of the registry and
of DLLs.
But it _does_ mean that the claim that you "don't need to reinstall
Linux every few months" is not much of a reality.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/linuxsysconfig.html>
Rules of the Evil Overlord #137. "Before spending available funds on
giant gargoyles, gothic arches, or other cosmetically intimidating
pieces of architecture, I will see if there are any valid military
expenditures that could use the extra budget."
<http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Weaknesses of Red Hat?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:57:25 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Neil would say:
>Peter T. Breuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Engineering skill and good judgement.
>
>Could you be more specific about what the problems are?
For a long time, they lacked a formal testing process that would
provide the ability to validate that releases were actually working
well.
They supposedly hired someone for this explicit purpose about six
months ago, but it doesn't appear to have produced results yet.
Frankly, until they start releasing software that formally validates
that RPMs conform to some well-specified set of conformance rules
(such as LSB/FHS requirements), paralleling the Debian dpkg toolset,
they will doubtless continue to have Serious Problems with the x.0 and
x.1 releases.
In particular...
Errata include: <http://www.redhat.com/support/errata/index.html>
- For 6.2, which hasn't been out long:
- 7 packages with Security Errata
- 9 packages with "Bug Fixes"
- 1 package "Upgraded"
- For 6.1, there were 30 errata
- For 6.0, around 45 errata packages
- There are around 40 errata packages for 5.2; no indications of
equivalent lists for 5.1 or 5.0
It is getting to be a standing _joke_ that you don't want to use a .0
or .1 release from Red Hat, because there will likely be fairly
serious problems with something or other.
It rather appears that they are working hard to push out new releases,
and apparently not doing enough testing.
It would likely be a _big_ win to have something like the Debian
Policy Manual <http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/> along with
tools like Lintian,
<http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/developers-reference/\
ch-tools.html#s-lintian> designed to check out packages to see that
they conform to policy (to the extent to which this may be automated).
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Multics is security spelled sideways.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Debian and X
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:57:24 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Peter T. Breuer would say:
>Ruben Haugan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>: Is it difficult to configure X and the windowmanagers after installing
>: Debian?
>
>No. It's what people normally do.
>
>: If the question is not enough spesific; Is it necessary to
>: configure A LOT
>
>It's too specific. Configuring X has intrinsically nothing to do with
>any distro, though a distro may provide you with extra tools to help
>you do so.
Well, many of the "seat-covers-and-fuzzy-dice" distributions that are
getting rather popular _mandate_ (or at least "strongly encourage")
configuring X before proceeding to install the distribution.
This is true for Red Hat, StormLinux, Corel Linux, Caldera,
Mandrake...
>: before being able to use X? Any tools avail?
>
>?? What would you want to configure except the hostname and the
>partition mounts, both of which you should already have done by then.
>
>Just fire away with apt-get ...
Indeed.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Rules of the Evil Overlord #83. "If I'm eating dinner with the hero,
put poison in his goblet, then have to leave the table for any reason,
I will order new drinks for both of us instead of trying to decide
whether or not to switch with him." <http://www.eviloverlord.com/>
------------------------------
From: Robert Heller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Multiple OS's for software testing
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:54:52 GMT
Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
In a message on Mon, 22 May 2000 10:26:04 -0400, wrote :
D> I'm writhing code that is intended to run under Win(Any) and eventually
D> Linux. My question is if anyone has ever set up a computer that has all
D> of the following OS's on them, or if it is a bad idea? DOS 6.x for some
D> old legacy code, Win95, Win98, WinNT 4, Win2000, and Linux. I know that
D> is a lot of OS's, but we will use Partition Magic to set up partitions
D> and control booting. Thanks for any helpful information.
There is probably no real reason to have both Win95 and Win98 both
installed -- they are not really different and might not behave it if
not installed on drive C:.
Installing both Win9x and WinNT 4 can be interesting -- some software
installers become confused and don't know where the system is -- I know
someone who had Win95 and WinNT 4 (with Linux also installed) had
various troubles and finally tossed Win95 and ended up with a WinNT 4 /
Linux system. Note: almost anything that will run under WinNT 4 will
run under Win9x (except things like device drivers).
Don't know what Win2000 is going to do. It might insist on *replacing*
Win9x and/or WinNT 4.
Note: installing multiple versions of Linux is no problem.
D>
D>
D> Dennis,
D>
--
\/
Robert Heller ||InterNet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://vis-www.cs.umass.edu/~heller || [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.deepsoft.com /\FidoNet: 1:321/153
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