Linux-Misc Digest #608, Volume #24 Fri, 26 May 00 14:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Freewwweb slow ? (Lac Hao Viet)
Re: RedHat 6.2 install questions (Matthew B)
Re: custom boot disk question ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Freewwweb slow ? (Edward Jong)
Re: reading *.doc files in Linux? (Dances With Crows)
readhat 6.1 and mail readers ("Masoud Radparvar")
Max process size limited under 2.2.x? Maxing at 895M with 1G RAM + 2G (Arthur
Castonguay)
A curious problem with Red Hat Linux 6.1. (Madhusudan Singh)
Re: reading *.doc files in Linux? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: reading *.doc files in Linux? (Madhusudan Singh)
Re: custom boot disk question (Xiaolan Ling)
Re: How can I get ksh as a login shell ? (13mb50000-JonesB(10053580212g77))
democracy? ("Francis Van Aeken")
Re: democracy? (Grant Edwards)
Re: vi command question ("Art S. Kagel")
Re: reading *.doc files in Linux? (JEDIDIAH)
Re: PHP vs Java (Mark Rafn)
Re: msie 5 for unix on linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: How Microsoft inhibits competition & innovation ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: democracy? (JEDIDIAH)
Re: hangs (for a while) for "eth0" (Praedor Tempus)
Re: democracy? (Brian Langenberger)
Re: democracy? (Greg Yantz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lac Hao Viet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.setup,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Freewwweb slow ?
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:45:00 GMT
I use Earthlink and Freewwweb. Freewwweb is faster in my area.
In article <8gm44n$97d$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It s true, dont use it as your primary ISP, try the other free ones
first
> like freei or netzero, if you can In article
<8gm09r$628$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> Rootman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Mine varied wildly, got 20k connections to almost 50k. Mail was
> > excrutiatingly slow all the time.
> >
> > I guess the thing is "what do you expect for nothin'?". I broke
down
> > and actually got a local ISP after account freezups, no email and
busy
> > signals all the time. Never getting a response to tech support
email
> > (to this date from almost 30 days ago) sealed it's doom.
> >
> > It's alright if you can put up with the slow and non existant
service.
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Sandhitsu R Das <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm getting slow connections with freewwweb. Is there any fine
tuning
> > > necessary in the startup scripts or something to get a better
> > > connection ?
> > > I've made their page my homepage and visit it right after ppp is
> > > established. What's the kind of data transfer rate with netscape
> > > people are getting ?
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> --
> Don't e-mail your response
> Post it right here, but if you must, I'm also at
> annandy AT dc DOT seflin DOT org
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 03:02:44 +1000
From: Matthew B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RedHat 6.2 install questions
I have it very easy and very fast to use Partition Magic 5.0
as to question1, yes you do have the file system already mounted( you
wrote:::t /mnt/vfat" because linux tells me
the filesystem is already mounted)
question2: Just make a small boot partition *(suggest 150 mb) below the 1024
cylinder.
you can then put the rest of linux anywhere on the disk.
Install LILO to the first linux partiton (usually hda5) and use a third
party boot manager of your choice.
(for instance Boot magic as it comes free with the PM5 disk)
,,,,
Matt
Chris Stump wrote:
> I have a couple of questions, and I'll make 'em straight to the point:
>
> 1. I currently have Red Hat 6.2 set up on my system using the
> partitionless install feature (on Win98). This actually works quite
> well, but I can't figure out how to mount/access windows files. I can'
> t use "mount -t vfat /dev/hda(or hda1) /mnt/vfat" because linux tells me
> the filesystem is already mounted or that there is a "bad super block,
> etc., etc." Is it impossible to access windows files through this
> partitionless install? If not, how do I access them?
>
> 2. If I can't access the windows files with the partitionless install
> then I would like to repartition my HDD and install Red Hat 6.2 in its
> own partition. However, I have a 19 GB HDD and I don't want to install
> Lilo (bad luck with lilo...its a long story--I would like to use a boot
> disk). If I do a custom install (which will give me the option not to
> install lilo) will I not run into the "1024 cylinder" problem? I
> installed Red Hat 6.1 before on a re-partitioned HDD and I ran into the
> "1024" problem. However, I was doing a workstation install which
> automatically uses lilo to configure a dual-boot system. Since custom
> gives me the option to/will not install lilo, will the installation let
> me put linux on the last 4GB of my 19 GB HDD, leaving the remaining 15
> GB for Windows? Obviously the linux boot sector will not be below the
> 1024 cylinder, but I'm assuming that this won't matter since I will be
> booting off of a floppy and therefore I am not asking installation to
> place lilo...am I correct?
>
> 3. What is the word with partition magic 5.0? Is it significantly safer
> than FIPS? I used fips before and it worked great, but I'm still a
> little leary. Also, what is the deal with the boot agent that comes
> with partition magic? Is this a hassle-free boot agent that is friendly
> to the windows and its MBR? Does is overwrite the existing MBR? I
> imagine it would...
>
> 4. Does anyone use bootlin? It sounds like an interesting alternative
> to lilo, but I haven't heard to much about it. I basically would like
> to use a boot agent, but not one that overwrites/complicates the MBR (I
> had major problems with this before, and can't afford them again:)
>
> Thanks in advance to all those who reply...your help is very much
> appreciated.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: custom boot disk question
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:10:21 GMT
Xiaolan Ling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> rm: invalid option -- i
> Usage: rm [-S] [-s secs] [-f secs]
You seem to have some other program on your system called rm,
and your PATH is such that it it found before the usual /bin/rm.
Alternatively, while root, someone mistyped a command that
overwrote /bin/rm with this other program.
What happens if you type
whereis rm
or
/bin/rm --help
?
#Paul
------------------------------
From: Edward Jong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.networking,comp.os.linux.setup,alt.os.linux
Subject: Re: Freewwweb slow ?
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:14:43 -0700
I visit their homepage immediately after my connection, and I found the
connection speed pretty fast.
I found if I did not visit their homepage, all internet functions come to a
crawl. That is my experience here in
Vancouver, BC Canada.
Sandhitsu R Das wrote:
> I'm getting slow connections with freewwweb. Is there any fine tuning
> necessary in the startup scripts or something to get a better connection ?
> I've made their page my homepage and visit it right after ppp is
> established. What's the kind of data transfer rate with netscape people
> are getting ?
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dances With Crows)
Subject: Re: reading *.doc files in Linux?
Date: 26 May 2000 13:19:40 EDT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 26 May 2000 15:45:15 GMT, Peter Bismuti
<<8gm66b$q8r$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> shouted forth into the ether:
>Is there any free software that allows you to read *.doc files in Linux?
strings file.doc | less
This is quicker than almost any other alternative, and if you look
carefullly at the output, you can see if the file has the MS-Virus-
Of-The-Week. Formatting goes to hell, but it's amazing how little
formatting is necessary for comprehension...
--
Matt G / Dances With Crows \###| You have me mixed up with more
There is no Darkness in Eternity \##| creative ways of being stupid?
But only Light too dim for us to see \#| Beer is a vegetable. WinNT
(Unless, of course, you're working with NT)\| is the study of cool. --MegaHAL
------------------------------
From: "Masoud Radparvar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: readhat 6.1 and mail readers
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:18:41 -0400
I upgraded from redhat 5.1 to redhat 6.0. Before
the upgrade, I was able to retrieve mail into a win98
machine using outlook express. After the upgrade,
I cannot retrieve mail; the outlook complains that:
Your server has unexpectedly terminated the connection. Possible causes for
this include server problems, network problems, or a long period of
inactivity. Account: 'mail', Server: 'mailserver', Protocol: POP3, Port:
110, Secure(SSL): No, Error Number: 0x800CCC0F
The mail server works perfectly; it sends and receives mail
without any problems after the upgrade.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Masoud
------------------------------
From: Arthur Castonguay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,comp.os.linux.hardware
Subject: Max process size limited under 2.2.x? Maxing at 895M with 1G RAM + 2G
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:24:39 -0400
We're running some Linux boxes with 1G of physical RAM and an
additional 2G of virtual memory. They are dual CPU 600MHz
PIII's on an ASUS P2B-D(some DS too). We're running vanilla
RedHat 6.1 with the SMP kernel. The jobs we're running
get quite large and we've been noticing alot terminating
in the 900M size range. We wrote a program that continuously
allocates memory until it fails and it consistently maxes out
at 895M. We can run several of these at the same time and
all max out at 895M.
There is no limit imposed at the shell level.
# ulimit -a
core file size (blocks) 0
data seg size (kbytes) unlimited
file size (blocks) unlimited
max memory size (kbytes) unlimited
stack size (kbytes) 8192
cpu time (seconds) unlimited
max user processes 2048
pipe size (512 bytes) 8
open files 1024
virtual memory (kbytes) 2105343
As far as I can tell from reading on the web, we should be
able to have a single process of 2 or 3G (the postings I've
read are a bit unclear on which version of the OS can
support what). At any rate, it's more than 895M and I'll
take either.
The only thing that seems to be related in terms of kernel
tweaking is the processor targetted and the "max physical memory"
knob. I've tried the 686 group with 2M physical and the numbers
actually get lower (around the 500M or so range). I tried installing
2.2.15 to see if there was something up with the version shipped
with RH6.1 (2.2.12-20) to no avail.
So, is there some file somewhere that limits the maximum size
of a process that I've never noticed? Is this a known limitation
of the kernel version? I recall reading something about
2.2.x having some limitation based on some function of real
and virtual memory but none of these have been clear enough
to understand.
Ideas? I'd prefer to keep with vanilla RH6.1 if possible since
we have quite a few of these systems that need to be reconfigured.
Thanks in advance for any help that can be offered. I'd appreciate
a CC to my email if you're posting since it's a pretty busy group
and I may miss it (our local server doesn't keep too much of a backlog).
Regards,
Arthur
-
Arthur Castonguay
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cadabra Design Automation http://www.cadabradesign.com
------------------------------
From: Madhusudan Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: A curious problem with Red Hat Linux 6.1.
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:35:52 +0000
Hi
I have a strange problem with running fvwm on RH Linux 6.1. I did
not have a .fvwm2rc file in my directory. When I created one, I found
that my fvwm manager does not respond to any changes in that. What is
going on ? I have previously used fvwm on RH Linux 5.2 without any
problems.
Any help will be appreciated.
Madhusudan Singh.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: reading *.doc files in Linux?
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:38:55 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 26 May 2000 15:45:15 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Bismuti) wrote:
>Is there any free software that allows you to read *.doc files in Linux?
WordPerfect does it too and is not as huge as StarOffice:
http://linux.corel.com/products/linuxproducts_wp8.htm
--
Eggert Ehmke
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: Madhusudan Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: reading *.doc files in Linux?
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:38:11 +0000
I have heard of catdoc for particular versions of word. See if that works.
Peter Bismuti wrote:
> Is there any free software that allows you to read *.doc files in Linux?
>
> Thanks
------------------------------
From: Xiaolan Ling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.os.linux,uk.comp.os.linux
Subject: Re: custom boot disk question
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 18:32:02 +0100
Thank you, I found the problem. It's because I used a custom version of
rm which is not suitable for my system.
On Fri, 26 May 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Xiaolan Ling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > rm: invalid option -- i
> > Usage: rm [-S] [-s secs] [-f secs]
>
> You seem to have some other program on your system called rm,
> and your PATH is such that it it found before the usual /bin/rm.
> Alternatively, while root, someone mistyped a command that
> overwrote /bin/rm with this other program.
>
> What happens if you type
>
> whereis rm
>
> or
>
> /bin/rm --help
>
> ?
>
> #Paul
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (13mb50000-JonesB(10053580)212g77)
Subject: Re: How can I get ksh as a login shell ?
Date: 26 May 2000 17:41:20 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The first question is, do you have ksh on your system? The source can be
downloaded from AT&T - they have made it public. There are links from the
korn shell home page into the AT&T site. This is for ksh9s.
Both bash and ksh have either emacs or vi command line editing modes.
Normally you enter "set -o vi" to turn on the vi mode. This then allows
you to use the <ESC>k sequence to back up through the history file.
I am in the process of bringing up ksh - I am not fond of bash either.
>From article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, by jose luis fernandez diaz
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi,
>
> I have a RH 6.1. The default login shell is bash, but I want ksh as a
> login shell. I writed the '/etc/passwd' file to get this, but it haven't
>
> comman-line editing. If I press 'Esc + K' the term shows:
>
> ^[k
>
> instead of repeat the last command. How can I solve this problem ?
>
> Thanks,
> Jose Luis.
>
>
>
--
Brian Jones aka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
From: "Francis Van Aeken" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: democracy?
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:48:06 -0300
Gerald Willmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
> CNN is conducting a poll whether MS should be split up and if yes into how
> many parts. Please take a minute to vote for a good cause.
> -> http://cnnfn.com/poll/microsoft_breakup.html
The results of these MS breakup polls (consistently 2/3 against) raise some
interesting questions about the implementation of democracy (in this case in
the USA).
Why is it that the opinion of the man in the street doesn't matter (because
they're stupid, stupid! (?)) and why is it that one single person (the judge)
is to make the decision? Shouldn't there be at least a panel or a jury?
Francis.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Grant Edwards)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: democracy?
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:51:22 GMT
In article <392eb767$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Francis Van Aeken wrote:
>Why is it that the opinion of the man in the street doesn't matter (because
>they're stupid, stupid!(?)) and why is it that one single person (the judge)
>is to make the decision?
That's the way the legal system is designed. It can be changed
if enough people want it changed.
>Shouldn't there be at least a panel or a jury?
Possibly.
--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! .. I'm IMAGINING a
at sensuous GIRAFFE, CAVORTING
visi.com in the BACK ROOM of a
KOSHER DELI --
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:52:04 -0400
From: "Art S. Kagel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: vi command question
Jim McIntyre wrote:
>
> Is there an 'e' command to use in vi command mode? The only refernece
> to e in tha man pages is to use vi -e to start vi in exec mode. I have
> been told it can be use to open a specified in command mode.
Yes :e filename will open the specified filename and discard the current
file buffer if it has been written since last modified. :e# will toggle
between the current file buffer and the last file (ie the one that was
loaded before you use :e the first time or :n for multiple files on the
commandline).
Art S. Kagel
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Subject: Re: reading *.doc files in Linux?
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:51:59 GMT
On Fri, 26 May 2000 19:38:55 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 26 May 2000 15:45:15 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Peter Bismuti) wrote:
>
>>Is there any free software that allows you to read *.doc files in Linux?
>
>WordPerfect does it too and is not as huge as StarOffice:
>http://linux.corel.com/products/linuxproducts_wp8.htm
This is the sort of situation where the best advice is to simply
try everything and anything that you can get your hands on. For some word
documents, even WP9 Win32 has fits. Meanwhile, there are plenty of simpler
documents that something like AbiWord or Maxwell might be able to deal with.
Also, even amongst the commercial office suites you will get wildly varying
results when it comes to dealing with foreign formats.
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Mark Rafn)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help,comp.unix.programmer,comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: PHP vs Java
Date: 26 May 2000 17:58:21 GMT
Andreas Kahari <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I don't know of any links to the info you want and I'm not an authority
>on neither PHP nor Java but I do know that PHP is executed by the server
>and that Java programs are executed by the client.
No, the poster was asking about server-side java, aka java servlets or jsp.
It's code that executes on the server machine and spits out HTML (or
whatever) to the client.
>From an overview sense, it's no different from FastCGI, mod_perl, php,
coldfusion, etc.
> Ben Chausse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> We have a webserver on Debian 2.2 with apache 1.3.12 & mod_perl 1.21
>> and I would like to know what is the best between PHP and Java (.php or
>> .jsp) ????
The best is whatever gets the job done. The languages are different enough
that your coding styles and the type of tasks you want to do will determine
what's best - no outside benchmark will help.
You have mod_perl installed, why have you eliminated it from consideration?
--
Mark Rafn [EMAIL PROTECTED] <http://www.dagon.net/> !G
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: msie 5 for unix on linux
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:58:25 GMT
h8te <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> did eloquently scribble:
> Are you a dick?,
No, it would appear in the rant below that you have proven yourself to be
the "dick".
> And most people from England suck to, not all but most...
I rest my case.
--
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack|
| [EMAIL PROTECTED] |in the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you|
| |can't move, with no hope of rescue. |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc |Consider how lucky you are that life has been |
| in |good to you so far... |
| Computer Science | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy.|
=============================================================================
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: How Microsoft inhibits competition & innovation
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:58:28 GMT
Davorin Mestric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> did eloquently scribble:
> your hate for microsoft makes you blind to the truth. windows api is
> very stable since win95,
Strange. Care to explain why IE4 caused 2 BSoDs in one evening this weekend
whilst working on a friends machine? I've never SEEN a linux kernel panic
YET, or even an oops.
> compare this to KDE or Gnome development, which is very unstable at this
> point.
These aren't operating systems though, are they? If they crash, they don't
take the entire system down with 'em!
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| [EMAIL PROTECTED],uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
| Andrew Halliwell BSc | |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
==============================================================================
|GCv3.12 GCS>$ d-(dpu) s+/- a C++ US++ P L/L+ E-- W+ N++ o+ K PS+ w-- M+/++ |
|PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ X+/X++ R+ tv+ b+ DI+ D+ G e++ h/h+ !r!| Space for hire |
==============================================================================
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JEDIDIAH)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: democracy?
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:56:35 GMT
On Fri, 26 May 2000 17:51:22 GMT, Grant Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <392eb767$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Francis Van Aeken wrote:
Democracy versus Republic.
>
>>Why is it that the opinion of the man in the street doesn't matter (because
>>they're stupid, stupid!(?)) and why is it that one single person (the judge)
>>is to make the decision?
>
>That's the way the legal system is designed. It can be changed
>if enough people want it changed.
>
>>Shouldn't there be at least a panel or a jury?
>
>Possibly.
--
In what language does 'open' mean 'execute the evil contents of' |||
a document? --Les Mikesell / | \
Need sane PPP docs? Try penguin.lvcm.com.
------------------------------
From: Praedor Tempus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: hangs (for a while) for "eth0"
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:02:43 -0600
Lori Holder wrote:
>
> Is it a hot ethernet connection? I find that when I don't have my system jacked
> into the net at boot time it really screws with the eth0 initializiation - it
> takes forever, and then often fails. That's with 6.1, though.
>
> Steve wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 May 2000 19:06:41 -0700, Simon Huang wrote:
> > >hi, i am using a "westell" adsl modem with a "kingston kne110tx" ethernet
> > >card on my redhat 6.2 system. each time my computer boots, it stop for a
> > >while for starting the device "eth0" and then say "failed". can anyone tell
> > >me what's the problem?
I get this all the time when rebooting my desktop Mandrake 7.2 system.
I have
a 3c90x card that is nicely autodetected at install. My connection is
"hot"
via a DSL modem.
I have a hub connected to my DSL modem. If I connect my laptop running
the
same Mandrake version (but a different 3com card...Etherlink II), there
is
no delay at all. If I assign an IP to my desktop 3c90x rather than
doing
it the dhcp way, I get no delay at all and everything works fine (except
that
if I then connect my laptop to the hub, it can be assigned the same ip
address as my desktop, screwing things up. My way around that was to
select
an IP for my desktop that was higher up in the possible dhcp pool
(10.0.0.x)
than is likely to be assigned by the router. 10.0.0.10 tends to be nice
and
safe for me as my laptop using dhcp generally gets assigned 10.0.0.5.
praedor
------------------------------
From: Brian Langenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: democracy?
Date: 26 May 2000 18:04:50 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Francis Van Aeken <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Gerald Willmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
:> CNN is conducting a poll whether MS should be split up and if yes into how
:> many parts. Please take a minute to vote for a good cause.
:> -> http://cnnfn.com/poll/microsoft_breakup.html
: The results of these MS breakup polls (consistently 2/3 against) raise some
: interesting questions about the implementation of democracy (in this case in
: the USA).
: Why is it that the opinion of the man in the street doesn't matter (because
: they're stupid, stupid! (?)) and why is it that one single person (the judge)
: is to make the decision? Shouldn't there be at least a panel or a jury?
Microsoft isn't running for office, they're being put on trial.
Just because they've won the popularity contest among the general
public doesn't change the fact that they've been found guilty of
breaking antitrust laws. Even if a jury trial was involved, the
jurors would not get the option of finding Microsoft not guilty
simply because they might like the company and not want to see
it broken up - the facts of the trial are all that's relevant.
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: democracy?
From: Greg Yantz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 26 May 2000 14:05:05 -0400
"Francis Van Aeken" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Gerald Willmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
> > CNN is conducting a poll whether MS should be split up and if yes into how
> > many parts. Please take a minute to vote for a good cause.
> > -> http://cnnfn.com/poll/microsoft_breakup.html
> The results of these MS breakup polls (consistently 2/3 against) raise some
> interesting questions about the implementation of democracy (in this case in
> the USA).
The fact that you take a poll so seriously makes me wonder a few basic things:
-have you bothered to consider sample size and distribution?
-do you understand the difference between representative democracy
and mob rule?
> Why is it that the opinion of the man in the street doesn't matter (because
> they're stupid, stupid! (?))
Noone ever said that. The opinion of the man in the street has both direct
and indirect outlets. The direct outlet is the ballot box. The indirect
outlet is through demonstration of some kind- either public, or letter
writing to one's elected representatives- to let elected folks know what
sort of policies are likely to be rewarded at the ballot box next time out.
> and why is it that one single person (the judge)
> is to make the decision? Shouldn't there be at least a panel or a jury?
Because for a representative system to actually *function*, once an
official (either elected or appointed) is in position, within certain
bounds of accountability they should be free to do as they think best.
It's a bit of a trade-off.
Anything else, particularly elected officials basing their "leadership"
on daily opinion polls, tends to resemble pandering to the mob.
(Circus & dole, anyone?)
> Francis.
-Greg
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