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>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 21:15:45 -0400 (EDT)
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>>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jul 20 21:15:43 1999
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>Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 18:08:28 -0700
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>From: Dave Crocker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [IDNO-DISCUSS] Re: [IFWP] Kent Crispin applies for IDNO
> membership
>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>In-Reply-To: <006e01bed301$42e36760$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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>At 03:43 PM 7/20/99 , Roeland M.J. Meyer wrote:
>> > Unless, of course, you present a similar challenge to all
>> > applicants. Do you?
>>No and I don't claim to either.
>>...
>>
>>This is good, Kent can be fallible and I can't? Sorry, I don't do double
>>standards, nor do I claim the "higher standard" hypocracy. I'm people,
>>just like you are, I think.
>
>Roeland,
>
>Alas, as your statement, earlier, makes explicit, you DO do double standards.
>
>You are presenting a different, and very challenging, question to Kent that
>you do not present to other applicants. By definition, that is a double
>standard.
>
>> > >Nor does the IDNO. BTW, in your job, you have taken a
>> > loyalty oath. As a
>> > >US citzen, you have taken the "pledge of allegiance", yet another
>> >
>> > Actually, no, a native-born American has no requirement for
>> > such an oath,
>> > absent that taking one of a small set of special jobs.
>>
>>Kent claims a DOE "Q" clearance (see his resume, at songbird). To my
>>understanding, this requires a loyalty oath. To my certain knowlege, any
>
>You are focusing on the only the first part of your statement, rather than
>the second:
>
> "As a US citizen, you have taken the "pledge of
> allegiance", yet another loyalty oath."
>
>That's the part that was incorrect.
>
>>it. And yes, every native born american has learned the pledge of
>>allegiance, in school, as part of primary education. They used to take
>
>Learning something is different from being required to make an affirmation
>of it.
>
>> > Roeland, as an officer of this organization you need to watch
>> > your mouth.
>>
>>As a visitor, you need to watch yours.
>>
>> > Indulgence in this sort of rude and offensive and dismissive
>> > language is a
>> > very good reason for doubting the legitimacy of IDNO.
>>
>>It is no worse than what you've been spouting.
>
>Actually, I believe that a careful review of the record will reveal that it
>IS worse.
>
>But not surprisingly, that's not the point.
>
>The point I raised has to do with the obligations of officials of IDNO.
>
>As you continue to make clear, you have a view that you have no real
>restraints or impartiality imposed upon you.
>
>> > Lack of professionalism is particularly less tolerable from
>> > an official,
>> > than from other participants.
>>
>>Again, I don't do the double-standards schtick.
>
>In this context, the "schtick" has to do with requirements for professional
>demeanor and, no, you do "do" that.
>
>>Dave, you have taken what I thought was as non-confrontational a message
>>as I could write and take the worst possible context out of it. I can
>>not think of a better example of Dave Crocker style.
>
>Roeland, I fully believe that you thought it was non-confrontational.
>
>Unfortunately, it wasn't even close. It was confrontational, rude and biased.
>
>That's why I am suggesting that the IDNO membership needs to consider (or,
>rather, re-consider) the obligations of its representatives.
>
>> > And, Roeland, for a second time you are here demonstrating an
>> > extreme bias
>> > in your position, since you seem unable to appreciate the
>> > importance of
>> > refraining from undermining participants with ad hominems.
>>
>>This whole tirade of yours is one giant ad hominem. You are doing
>
>tirade: angry, abusive diatribe.
>
>I've shown no abuse and been quite careful to show respect.
>
>There is a difference between calling behavior to question and showing a
>lack of a respect.
>
>If one, however, reviews your own statements towards Kent, especially, the
>word "tirade" would not be unreasonable to apply, even as one sees that --
>from your perspective -- it is clear you were trying not to indulge in one.
>
>>exactly the same schtick you played on the ORSC list. It made Stef
>>crazy, frustrated him to no end. Well, unlike Stef, there are key parts
>>of your claims that I don't buy in to. I understand and admit human
>>fallibility and I won't allow you to pressure me into claiming
>>otherwise. I am simply doing the best job I can. That folks voted for me
>>(without any campaigning on my part BTW), earns them my heartfelt
>>thanks. But, it also gives me a bit of mandate that Stef never had, as
>>well as, an obligation to do the best that I can, in the same vein that
>>I've been doing it in. In no part of that do I claim any sort of
>>uber-mensch perfection of personality or motives. I do claim a certain
>>hard-line sense of ethics and morals, which I do not impose on others.
>
>hmmm. yes, I think "tirade" is probably the right word here, too.
>
>d/
>
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Dave Crocker Tel: +1 408 246 8253
>Brandenburg Consulting Fax: +1 408 273 6464
>675 Spruce Drive <http://www.brandenburg.com>
>Sunnyvale, CA 94086 USA <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
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