Perhaps you are seeking to clean up your room for a reason.
Maybe there is nothing wrong with your room the way it is, but
you think there is.
Thought is the only problem we have---thinking we ought to do
this, not do that, should not, want to, etc.
Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 09:38:28 -0700
From: cac...@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: Exploring the a Paradox
To: listening-l@zrz.tu-berlin.de; ewjo...@cox.net
Maybe, but as usually your words are enigmatic and you will not tell me which
trap is that.
Elo
--- On Sat, 5/14/11, Edward Jones <ewjo...@cox.net> wrote:
From: Edward Jones <ewjo...@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Exploring the a Paradox
To: "'Elo Turquier'" <cac...@yahoo.com>, "'list'" <listening-l@zrz.tu-berlin.de>
Date: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 8:06 AM
RE: Exploring the a Paradox
I have done a gigantic effort in the pass and doubt there´s any K`s written or
related with him that I did not study in deep, including Krohnen´s book.
After that effort, I have been trapped for years in Krohnen´s paradox
(unconsciously waiting and seeking even when intellectually was clear that it
was wrong to do it).
Jim helped me to break such paradox when said me:
" the recognition that there is no one to get out of anything is the medicine".
" To recognize that the night mare and that which is subject to the night mare
are one in the same, and that the one in the same is no-thing is the medicine
to all ills. It is not the night mare that is the illness, it is the struggle
to escape the night mare that is the illness. When the duality of a "me" that
needs to get away from "it" is dropped, the illness evaporates."
I realize I am not waiting/seeking since then; from time to time the
waiting/seeking try to rise anew but I see it has not sense and it inmediatly
stops without struggle or effort. My mind is cleaner now, accumulates fewer
ashes from the daily living and is lesser prone to be engaged in pain, sorrow
and illusory proyections. That´s fine but I am still deeply stuck in the
movements of my ego and its reactions.
Regarding your last question, I am not all spick and span now neither cleaning
up my mess. My bad habits (mostly corporal) regarding diet, toxics, irregular
sleeping and so go on. I need them for going on with my needs of living (job
and other activities I am engaged on). I am completelly indolent about that and
do nothing for correcting it. I don´t know why do not clean my room.
Elo
You fell into an even deeper trap, Elo.
Edward
Re: Exploring the a Paradox
Yiming Zhang
Fri, 13 May 2011 20:50:03 -0700You don't see the paradox, Elo.
But Michael Krohnen sees the paradox.
Therefore, he must be doing it wrong and
cleaning his messy mind with the motive to transform.
So, how is it going with you?
Are you all spick and span now or still cleaning up your
mess?
________________________________
From: Elo Turquier <cac...@yahoo.com>
To: list <listening-l@zrz.tu-berlin.de>
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 8:33:24 PM
Subject: Re: Exploring the a Paradox
I don´t see paradox. By one hand, K said that insight and transformation is
immediate, not an accumulative process through effort. By the other hand, he
also said that it is necessary `to clean the room´ because an insensible body
and a messy mind can not receive the insight and transform.
This ´cleaning´ usually needs effort (to stop smoking and drugs and the insane
living or to understand the ways of the self and its traps needs effort) but
this effort must not come from a goal, from a wish of transformation. It must
come from the passion which arises when we see the need of stopping our silly
way of living. Then we just clean the room but, when doing it, there is not
seeking for transformation.
That´s what K said and I don´t see any paradox.
I speculate that some persons who are "ready" for transformation and suffer a
big crisis (be it the sting of a snake or a big sorrow or whatever) can clean
the room and transform in an instant because of the energy developed by such
crisis.
The unique paradox I see is why we don´t clean the room when we see all the
above. Perhaps some of us become indolent after understanding that the seeking
and the effort will not lead us to transformation; indolent persons convert
they
room in a mess. K said that a natural discipline, a lack of indolence, is
necessary. And perhaps some of us can not stop our habits and clean our room
because it would interfere our job and relationships.
Elo
--- On Tue, 5/10/11, Yiming Zhang <yiming_zhang2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Exploring the
Paradox
>Yiming Zhang
>Sat, 07 May 2011 21:00:20 -0700
>Below is an excerpt of Michael Krohnen's reflection that I would like to
discuss
>with anyone who is stuck like him as well as with those on that other shore.
>
>"As we listen to Krishnamurti and study the
>significance of his teachings, we often cannot
>help but be struck by what appears to
>be a paradox.
>
>…his insistence on immediate
>‘insight’ and hence ‘transformation’, and
>thereby his denial of any gradual approach,
>appears to pose the greatest conundrum
>and difficulty. I have studied his
>work for many years, even decades, and
>yet I’m still waiting for that tremendous
>revolution in my consciousness.
>On the other hand, he again and again
>urges us not to seek, not to expect anything,
>not to set up a goal or an
end to be
>achieved, however noble and transcendent
>it may be."
>
