On 10/3/07, Scott Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Here's the catch22 and you can take a lesson learnt from Macromedia/Adobe on > this one. > > > > You could turn Blend into a basic version of Visual Studio, providing some > coding abilities etc. I think Intellisense is a brilliant idea and is > missing from Blend (*pokes Sam/Brian*) as that should be a realistic minimal > impact on roadmaps. > > > > Now if you were to head down the path of making Blend into a developer > centric tool, you run the risk of forking your target audience (losing a > chunk of your design audience.."oh blend..that's too hard for me.."). Flash > IDE was a classic case of this, as in reality it's more tailored towards the > "Designer / Interactive" market. Yet the more it grew in terms of coding > experience, the more designers started to get nervous..."what do you mean I > have to learn code..wtf, where was this in my original plan".. They kept it > pretty fluid though, by making the code "optional" in most cases as well > supporting ActionScript earlier generations. > > > > Expression Blend could suffer the same perception change if you head down > this path.. could being a vague word to insert. I consider Blend to be the > middle ground so part of me wants to do a lot of the coding basics inside it > whilst part of me doesn't want to impact the brand or reasons for its > existence, so what to do...
listening to customers is probably a start. i do believe that the designer/coder seperation is a bit of a dream land anyway. but aside from that, i don't quite understand why *VISUAL* studio wouldn't be suited to 'designer' tasks. personally, however, i would prefer an open-ish format that other tools - professional tools - can export to. ie 3d tools exporting to xaml. i've seen this i think; i forget the name of the product now though. i myself, as a 'programmer', don't forsee ever using "blend". whether that means anything to the blend team is up for debate. > I'm so glad I'm not on the Blend team :P – that said, intellisense is so > needed though... watch what you wish for, you just may get it. > > > > > > -- > > Scott Barnes > (Rich Interactive Application Evangelist) > > Microsoft Pty | Blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/msmossyblog | > Office: 7-3218-7030 | Mobile: 0439-072-184 > > Twitter: twitter.com/mossyblog | MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > P Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this > e-mail > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Stephen Price > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 6:47 PM > To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com > > Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > > > I often use Photoshop (CS3 at work, Elements at home) and have recently been > playing with Expression Design. (Really like Design for some things). It > really comes down to the right tool for the right job. Do we want a tool box > full of specialised tools, or a swiss army pocket knife? I'm for the box of > tools specific to what I do, and according to preference. > > > > > > That said, Photoshop, something I'd class as a design tool way more than a > developer tool has dockable windows. I'm pretty sure they could handle it if > it were in Blend. I suspect someone can't let go of the scalable work space. > (or make it work with docking windows) > > > (For those struggling with the Blend UI layout, I've found that reducing the > Workspace zoom under Tools > Options > Workspace gives you a little more > elbow room.) > > > > cheers, > > > Stephen > > > > On 10/3/07, Joseph Cooney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I think in an ideal world blend and VS could share the same code-base, > however having played around with integrating with Visual Studio I'm > inclined to think this is not such a great idea. Compare the GUI WPF > designer in Blend to the GUI WPF designer in VS 2008 – one of them is a > good, working product, the other one is hosted in visual studio. There could > be a whole bunch of resourcing and schedule reasons why the cider designer > is so painfully bad, but maybe the cost of integrating with VS is part of > the reason. The blend team seem to have delivered a fairly stable, credible > V1 product and continue to do good things with regular CTPs of V2. I'll take > non-integrated but working, existing software and take the ALT+TAB hit once > in a while. > > > > Joseph > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Charles Sterling > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 2:07 PM > To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com > Cc: Brian Pepin > > > > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > > > > I am not going to touch the topic of "Do designers do things so differently > that have to have need a different shell/operating system etc"…. > > > > But from what I understand Visual Studio is not the easiest Shell in the > world to extend/ integrate with and Blend is the first client to use a new > extensible shell created at Microsoft > > Where are we going with it? Who else is going to use it? –No idea. > > > > > > What is my preference? One shell/one paradigm and simply additional > functionality based on additional roles/tasks. > > > > Joseph asked the rhetorical question: > > "Would you like an IDE that was forked off adobe illustrator?" > > If it gave me all the functionality in the way I wanted to use it I don't > think I would care if it was forked off of notepad<g> > > > > Which of course begs the same question for other business in Microsoft – > Like why doesn't Office have: file new > Spreadsheet or Document or Email > or Presentation…. > > Or better yet, alter the experience based on what I am trying to do i.e. if > I am writing a letter and added a table change the experience to that of a > spreadsheet. ( I believe some smart company referred to this as being > "document centric" <vbg>) > > (Shane could probably tell me why I really don't want this<g>) > > > > -So I guess I am siding with Nick in principle > > > > -Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Nick Randolph > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:54 PM > To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > You mean idioms such as not being able to dock windows like in Expression? > The thing about VS is that it can be skinned to look/work just as the > Expression tools work today and yet still giving you the full platform > capabilities of VS. It's not about trying to get designers to work in a dev > tool – VS has been extended to be much more than a simple dev tool, as > illustrated by SSMS (which is based on the same shell). I understand that > designers work in a different way and I'm not asking them too. I just find > it frustrating that MS has gone down the path of releasing a tool that is > missing basic "platform" features such as window docking etc because they > wanted to appeal to a different market and a team didn't understand the > direction that VS was going. > > > > > Nick Randolph > > M: +61 412 413 425 > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Joseph Cooney > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 10:50 AM > To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > I don't agree Nick. I think designers are probably used to lots of different > idioms and behaviour in their applications that are different to Visual > Studio. By making blend a SKU of VS you're asking those people to conform to > the developer way of thinking (or not use the product). Would you like an > IDE that was forked off adobe illustrator? > > > > Joseph > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Nick Randolph > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 12:13 PM > To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > Shane > > > > As a long time user of VS I don't agree. I think that Expression should > just represent another sku of Visual Studio. The way that the VS shell has > evolved over time has been specifically designed for this purpose – to the > point where you could almost get the same "black" look as the current > Expression tools while still having it based on the VS shell. > > > > > Nick Randolph > > M: +61 412 413 425 > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Shane Morris > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 10:05 AM > To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > I too think we can expect more and more 'leaking' of features between VS and > Expression. But I hope the products do not end up merging. Speaking as a > user interface designer, it would be very hard to mash together all the > features of Blend and the many, many features of VS along with the two very > different UI styles. Not enough 'control surface' (as we say in the trade – > i.e. realestate) to accommodate both in the one app, IMO. > > > > Shane > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Paul Glavich > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 11:44 AM > To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > > I think the reality is that a majority of development in Silverlight will be > done by devs and so will necessitate a combination of both (eg. create in > blend, modify is VS, go back and do an anim in blend, go back and modify in > VS). I find myself doing just that all the time, and again, I think that > situation will be the majority. In some uber cool dev shops, the designer > types will use blend only, and perform a "dismount" of the design onto the > devs who will happily code away, culminating in a visual feast of an > application, I just think that it will be a small subset of users and > Microsoft working towards that ideal is simply delaying the inevitable. > > > > > > Having said that, I dont see the 2 merging in any short timeframe so thats > the way it will be I guess. I think we will see some features from both > creep their way in until some happy joining of the two and in a way, it will > probably result in a better overall product, just a little longer in > timeframe than I would hope. > > > > > > - Paul Glavich > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Bec Carter [ [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 11:28 AM > To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > I try to wear both hats too... but the designer half of my brain hurts when > I try to use it. :S > > ________________________________ > > > Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:40:10 +0800 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com > Subject: Re: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > I don't like that. I know the Expression suit is targeted at designers, but > I'm a developer who is trying to use Blend for the visual stuff. Not having > Intellisense discourages me from using it. One nice thing though it seems > the latest Preview of Blend 2 (Sept) can now render the XAML in my projects > again. Not sure why but was getting render errors both in Cider and Blend. > Something in there it didn't like but now its OK again. > > > > > > I can see why there is tool separation but Designers and Developers are not > always separated. I wear both hats so why can't my software? There is a VS > for developers, database guys, testers, and architechs... Why not designers? > I think all of the Expression suite could be integrated into the Visual > studio suite. One app to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them. > > > > > > cheers, > > > Stephen > > > > On 10/3/07, Damian Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: > > > > Blend 2 still doesn't have any intellisense of any sort, XAML or Javascript. > That is strictly the domain of Visual Studio. Not sure I agree with that > idea but that's the way it is. I guess you could use one of the Express > editions of Visual Studio to get free IntelliSense for your Silverlight > projects, but basically Blend is for designing only, no code. > > > Regards, > Damian Edwards > Readify | Senior Developer > > M: 0448 545 868 | E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | C: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] | W: www.readify.net > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Bec Carter > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 08:26 > To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com > > > > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > > > > Well I have the full license for Blend 1, so... > > Can you possibly tell me what cool features Blend 2 preview has? Javascript > Intellisense for Silverlight 1.0 projects? > > It may be argued that the coding should be left to Visual Studio I guess > (and Orcas does have the Intellisense as you know), but a lot of the > graphical effects need some sort of code anyway, and so I'd expect > Intellisense to be available in Blend. > ________________________________ > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: listserver@ozSilverlight.com > Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:05:51 +0800 > Subject: RE: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > Not that I know of. You could possibly make the project first in VS and then > open it in Blend1? But it's not for me to make claims about VS so I'll leave > that to others... > > In any case Blend 2 preview is free, so do you have a particular need to > use Blend 1? > > Shane > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Bec Carter > Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2007 1:28 PM > To: listserver@ozsilverlight.com > Subject: [OzSilverlight] Expression Blend 1 > > > > Is there a Silverlight 1.0 project template available for Expression Blend > 1? > > ________________________________ > > > Enter here. Win tix to see Crowded House live at the Greek Theatre, LA! > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to > the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. > Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to > the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. > Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net > > ________________________________ > > > Find thousands of jobs online now! NEW jobsjobsjobs.com.au. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to > the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. > Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to > the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. > Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > OzSilverlight.com - to unsubscribe from this list, send a message back to > the list with 'unsubscribe' as the subject. > Powered by mailenable.com - List managed by www.readify.net > > > ________________________________ > > > Find thousands of jobs online now! 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