Could it be that their job depends on their ability "to strictly enforce the rules of the state, county, city"? I've seen such behavior before from police groups. Leadership has a lot to do with it. And, as you read below, leadership is civilian/political in most circumstances.
CT 30°24'43.07"N 88°34'1.90"W -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Philip McConnell Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2008 18:07 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Liveaboard] The LIvaboard Lifestyle Hi CT, I don't know where you are, but here in Florida the FWC officers do seem to have a pretty rough reputation with the boating public for over zealous enforcement and unprofessional behavior. I've lived in Marinas all over Florida at this point, and have heard some pretty sad stories in every one of them. Southwinds, a local sailing magazine, frequently runs letters from boaters upset with their treatment by FWC officers. The one FWC officer that I actually know doesn't have a lot of respect for anchor out cruisers. When I hear complaints over such a large area and from so many different people, it suggests to me that there is probably an inappropriate organizational culture within the FWC. Philip McConnell SV Gryphon Fort Pierce, FL (for now) CT wrote: > > Norm, you made a few interesting points. Let me take them one at a time. > > > > NofD: “Your belief that I implied the money I spoke of was illicit > illustrates your viewpoint, not mine.” > > > > You’re right. The unintentional inference was made by the tone of the > missive and only by careful re-reading of the sentence in question was > it evident you were talking about salaries being paid through tax > receipts. However, you did imply that since you are not a > property-tax-paying-resident and they are not receiving any salary > from you (indirectly through taxes), the police (and politicians) have > a special **in** for you. > > > > NofD: “I would also like to hear more about the ‘risk’ water cops are > subject to over and above the normal water borne risks we all have to > deal with. […] boat people generally seem to be a gentle sort of folk.” > > > > Just as those living ashore, the greater percentage of people living > on the water are indeed “a gentle sort of folk”. Ashore or afloat, we > rarely interact with the gentle folk except for a wave of the hand, a > quick chat, or a required (by ordnance) safety inspection. Put > together some combination of the following words and you might have an > idea of the real waterborne risks we deal with: drugs/alcohol (legal > or illegal), fast/broken/beached/sinking/unlit/afire boat, > teenager/adult/pre-teen/infant, critical infrastructure/port security, > PWC, sailboat vs. motorboat/PWC, weapons (legal and illegal), > illness/injury, and more. I doubt you deal with more than one or two > of them any particular week. I’ve seen many of the combinations each > Friday through Sunday. Your PWC incident was a personal affront to > you but it’s really no different from a minor (no injury) hit and run > accident on the highway that happens with all too great frequency. > > > > NofD: “We are the victims and the attackers are the perpetrators, no > matter what position on the attacking team they play everyone (sic) > involved bears a degree of responsibility, just as the get-away driver > is also guilty of robbing the bank.” “water cops of Florida have > their way” “whim of the cop”, “free reign [of cops] to nail anybody, > anywhere” > > > > Wow, that’s some chip. It’s apparent you’ve had a number of > encounters with law enforcement that didn’t go your way. It’s > possible every one of those officers were wrong. I know that a > person’s attitude goes a long way in deciding how I will handle an > incident. You seem to have this perception of police persecution > against you as a person. I’m sure nothing could be further from the > truth unless you have somehow been singled out (as an individual, not > as a boater). You were not “run out of town” by a cop. You were > (well, legally your boat was) run out of town by an ordinance or law > being enforced by the cop. Keep in mind that every police chief and > sheriff is either appointed or elected – that, my friend, is politics. > The “cop on a beat” is not political in that regard and has no more > input into rules and statutes that any other voting member of the > public (unless they are part of a union and that’s politics too). The > Florida Fish and Wildlife *Conservation* Commission is composed of > civilians (AKA politicans). I highlight conservation not only because > it’s the correct title but goes back to my gripe about environmentalists… > > > > NofD: “I was just doing my job is a time-honored defense.” > > > I didn’t use that and, well frankly, it hasn’t washed as an excuse > since the Nuremburg Trials. Again, the cop on the beat is enforcing > to the best of their abilities the laws and statutes. You don’t like > the leeway they have in determining probable negligence in a > situation? Get active in politics and change the laws to be more > specific or taken off the books. The judicial system is, in theory, > the other line of defense (no pun intended). > > > > NofD: “Being run out of town because we live aboard is not some fantasy” > > > > I neither wrote nor implied it was. The Law of the Sea is rather > complicated but included therein is the right, if I remember > correctly, of innocent passage that allows transit within defined > borders to friendly vessels. There is no law I’m aware of that grants > the right *to live where one is not wanted*. Just as I can’t build a > residence adjacent to my company’s fabrication plant (us cops don’t > make a lot of money) due to zoning restrictions, if Melbourne (AKA > their tax-paying voters and elected officials, enforced by their hired > thugs) doesn’t want you as a cruiser in their city, you have every > right to (as far as they are concerned) live anywhere else afloat or > ashore. Absent that, stay in Melbourne and use your voter’s > registration card and get active in politics until the laws are > changed in your favor. > > > > I have every intention of moving aboard and living overseas. I see > the political (not police!) situation deteriorating at a rate I can’t > affect. Even if many of the countries on my short list have the kind > of cops you describe, I’ve learned to live in those societies and can > ensure my money goes directly, if not freely, to the appropriate > politicians and police. > > > > CT > > 30°24'43.07"N > > 88°34'1.90"W > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Norm of > Bandersnatch > *Sent:* Tuesday, 30 September 2008 13:36 > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [Liveaboard] The LIvaboard Lifestyle > > > > > > Ahoy CT and all, > > > > > > I'm confused. > > > > I was of the understanding that the police were paid from tax money. > There is no personal income tax in Florida, the major sources of > government revenue here are sales tax and property tax. > > > > If I am mistaken about this please let me know. > > > > Your belief that I implied the money I spoke of was > illicit illustrates your viewpoint, not mine. > > > > > > I would also like to hear more about the "risk" water cops are subject > to over and above the normal water borne risks we all have to deal > with. I can't recall any such reported on the news. Pirates aside, > boat people generally seem to be a gentle sort of folk. > > > > > > > > As for "verbal attacks". > > > > Like most of my email on the List, I describe the facts as I have > experienced them concerning many aspects of the livaboard life for the > benefit of those who follow in my wake, whether it's the care of > batteries, the benefits of the DC buss, or dealing with man-made > hazards. > > > > The original writer of this thread was contemplating living aboard and > I was describing some of the hazardous conditions he would be facing. > > > > Most livaboard persecution consists of two types of attacks. One > simply because we are living on a boat anchored in what somebody > considers to be their back yard, and another, based on law, because > our ONLY residence is a boat. If in addition to the boat, we owned > property ashore we would be somewhat protected from the second type > (although that may change very soon if the water cops of Florida have > their way) ENTIRELY BECAUSE we own real property and pay property > tax. One of the first questions cops ask us when they pull alongside > Bandersnatch is "Do you have a residence ashore?". The connection is > obvious to me. Because we do not pay money, in the form of property > tax, that finds its way into the pockets of the cops and the > politicians, we are subject to persecution. > > > > We do have a "home of record" as they would say in the military, at St > Brendan's Isle, along with several thousand other people. It appears > on my vessel's papers, Merchant Marine license and document, drivers > license, voter registration and all other legal documents that require > an address. This is not enough. It does not include the transfer of > money from our pocket into the pockets of our persecutors as property > taxes would. > > > > We are the victims and the attackers are the perpetrators, no matter > what position on the attacking team they play everyone involved bears > a degree of responsibility, just as the get-away driver is also guilty > of robbing the bank. > > > > "I was just doing my job", is an time-honored defense. You choose > your job. > > > > CT, I believe you don't think there is a need to lie to a cop about > owning property because you are holding the handle end of the gun. > I'd bet that you own real property, or pay rent, too, You are not > yet the victim you are running out of town (under orders of the > politicians of course). > > > > To be kind, I would like to think that you just don't understand the > actual situation. Now you are much more Cop than you are Livaboard, > but when you retire and if you do live aboard and travel you will > change your viewpoint entirely. > > > > Being run out of town by a cop because we live aboard is not some > fantasy. It happened to us personally in Melbourne, and there are > many other municipalities who do the same or worse. Melbourne (and > others) have an "ordinance" aimed specifically at "livaboard vessels" > as has been discussed at length both on this list and in personal > communications with the cops and politicians of Melbourne. > Fortunately for me, Jan does indeed own property ashore so for the > moment we are somewhat safe. But she may want to sell that property > some day and of course it will soon be immaterial if the water cops of > Florida have their way. > > > > As reported in the recent List message about the latest major attack > on us happening as we speak in Florida from the Florida FWC (Fish and > Wildlife Commission) and FDEP, which are now trying to drive all > anchored boats with people on them from the entire state of Florida. > Once my mother passes away I may have to seriously consider moving to > another country, driven out of my own simply because I choose to live > on a yacht. > > > > Cops are charged with enforcing the laws politicians make and like to > point out that "they are just doing their job", but cops have great > influence on creating those laws. In fact the new proposal to drive > anchored boats from Florida waters is presented to the Legislature by > the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission, the most prevalent cops on > the water, and the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. > The Police Chief of Marco Island has admitted in court to being the > architect of the restrictive local ordinances there. > > > > In addition cops, especially water cops, have great leeway to make > judgment calls on their own.. For example, speed limits are generally > not posted in MPH or knots but as "Slow Speed" or "No Wake" (an > absurdity, as any object moving through any fluid and any speed > produces a wake). What could be more vague and uncompliable? I can > easily drive my dinghy at "6 MPG" with a handheld GPS aboard as I do > in Norfolk at the Mile Zero anchorage, but what constitutes "Slow > Speed" is entirely at the whim of the cop. > > > > lAn example of the lack of such judgement these vague rules assume was > an incident I reported to the List several months ago. As I was > leaving the dinghy dock in Julington Creek I had to pass through a > go-slow manatee zone before I gained the "channel". There was a > go-slow manatee zone sign on a piling some distance from the shore. > Once I was offshore from the sign I came up on plane only to be > instantly stopped by a water cop. When I questioned why he was > writing a citation (a warning citation, no fine) he stated that the > sign was installed in the wrong place and I was actually in a manatee > zone! The sign has since been removed so now they have free reign to > nail anybody, anywhere. > > > > It is a lifetime accumulation of incidents like this one (remember the > cop in St Augustine who wrote me a citation when I told him that > contrary to his demands, a fire extinguisher is not required in my > dinghy? Or the cop that stopped us on a highway to issue a citation > and fine for a "intermittent brake light" that was in perfect working > order?), some smaller, some much larger, that forms my view of cops. > > > > On the other side of the coin, the one time I can remember that we > needed a cop was when we were attacked by a family of jet skiers > (apparently riding rental units) when anchored near the border of SC > and NC near Little River. The teen-aged boy of the group apparently > though he would give us a thrill so he passed us at high speed and > swerved his machine to throw a large curtain of > seawater through our open saloon windows. Jan was on her cell phone > for almost two hours trying to contact a cop to file a complaint. She > was given the usual run-around but finally talked to a Game Warden who > told her if she could prove who did it he could write a warning > citation, but we would have to take the perp to civil court to get a > judgement for any damages to contents of the saloon (mostly tools and > furniture). > > > > While I know in my mind that we need police to keep criminals in > check, and like the Good German I know there must be some good cops > out there, but over the years of my life they have almost completely > undermined my respect for them by their constant adversarial and > belligerent attitude, not just toward me personally, but to everyone I > know. Cops just don't seem to know or even care about the difference > between fear and respect. Fear, if shown properly, looks just like > respect and is what is required when dealing with cops. Respect > cannot be demanded, it must be earned,, a far more difficult task. > > > > (CT, just because you seem to think it pertinent ,I also gave several > years of my life to my country in exchange for a Honorable Discharge > and a DD-214.) > > > > Livaboards as a group are not criminals, they do not harm people, they > do not steal., On the contrary we have a long history of helping > others in need. We are persecuted simply because we live on a boat. > Cops are the instruments of that persecution, and I, along with > everyone else who loves the living aboard lifestyle, are the victims. > > > > > > > > Norm > > S/V Bandersnatch > > Lying Julington Creek > > 30 07.695N 081 38.484W > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* CT <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[email protected]> > > *Sent:* 9/29/2008 1:28:21 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [Liveaboard] The LIvaboard Lifestyle > > > > > > Norm, > > You have every right to verbally attack anyone or thing you desire > (I fought for that right) but I have to say we don't live in > 1920's Chicago or 1980's New Orleans. Money does not go into the > cops pockets (free coffee at the local roach coach being my > exception). Politicians maybe, Federal, local and state tax > coffers certainly, but the police (marine or land-based - and yes, > I work both) are just doing what they're are directed by statute > to do and that for a salary that does disservice to their risk. > > I don't think there's a need to lie to a cop about owning property > but I've never run into that problem personally. Your boat is > real property and you have probably already paid sales taxes on it > and might still be paying registration taxes as well. In effect, > you own property. You don't own land but the tax system in all > their efforts to squeeze the public for money missed the > liveaboard, non-land! owner. Their fault, not ours. A post > office box shoreside is all that's required for a proof of address. > > Were I to vent on the liveaboard/marina issue, it would be against > the environmentalists - they are the prima causa belli in my > opinion. Take away the rules and regulations they forced upon us > and you'll find life a little more resembling nirvana afloat. My > opinion, but then, I've never been mainstream about much. > > All the best, > CT > S/V/ Calliste > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Norm of Bandersnatch <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > To: Jeff S <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > Cc: A LiveAboardList <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 12:06:10 PM > Subject: [Liveaboard] The LIvaboard Lifestyle > > > > Jeff, > > > > There is one other gentleman whom I see often at his boat in > Julington Creek, the green-hulled Tahiti ketch, Tahiti > Rover, anchored closest to the marinas. He is Robbie Johnson and > has a cruising cookbook, the Gourmet Underway, or similar. He is > not sociable unless he is holding forth about his victory over his > recent cop attack. > > > > My boat is anchored farthest from the marinas due to draft > limitations. Jan and I are off and on because we are taking care > of my elderly mother in Ft Myers. > > > > You should be aware that the liveaboard lifestyle is under > constant attack. Many Florida municipalities, and I have heard > the State itself too, actually outlaw living aboard a boat, as > does Georgia. We are considered to be bums and tramps, akin to > Gypsies, and there are laws against our very existence. Some > weeks ago my nearest neighbor ashore stated that he hated me > because: I didn't pay property taxes (he pays $25K/year for his > multi-million dollar house), I poop in the river (I have a > composting toilet) and I am anchored in his sight. > > > > I am considering taking my pension and SS checks and moving to > another country to live out my retirement. Suggestions anyone? > > > > Or I could find a marina in this country somewhere and tie the > boat up even though the boat is self-sufficient at anchor. Rent > and utilities would cost me about half my retirement stipend. It > is far more acceptable to the bosses for someone who lives aboard > to do this. It is a lifestyle more similar the lives of the > politicians and cops and more to the point; part of one's rent > money finds its way into their pockets. > > > > "Local cities and counties in Florida have been prohibited by > statute 327.60(2) from regulating the anchoring of non live-aboard > vessels even though many of them have been doing so for years." > (from the recent posting) > > > > Notice that this prohibition only applies to "NON-LIVEABOARD" > vessels. Locals are free to outlaw anyone who actually lives > aboard his vessel. If you own a residence somewhere you are a > "full time cruiser" instead of a "liveaboard". This is why cops > often ask if you have a home on land. The proper answer is always > "yes". Keep in mind that it is crime to lie to a cop, whether you > are under oath or not. (However, is is perfectly legal for a cop > to lie to a citizen and they often do.) > > > > Notice further that our being declared to be criminals > has entirely to do with owning property ashore or tying up in a > marina. The crux of the matter lies in money, which relates to > the greed for power. Paying property taxes on a residence > ashore is the primary source of the money in the politician's and > the cop's wallet. If money flows freely from your pocket to the > politician's and cop's pocket, you are a good citizen, if not, you > are a criminal. > > > > I hope you noticed the message posted on this List about > the pending major attack on us by the FWC water cops. I hope you > responded and made your viewpoint known to the address provided. > > > > American society is two-faced. The independent, self-sufficient > ,lifestyle is often respected and admired in literature as the > strength of the Pioneers who built this Country, but in actual > fact we are vilified, considered to be degenerate reprobates and > laws are enacted to destroy us, a process going on as we speak. > > > > If you are considering living aboard a boat you must consider > these facts. > > > > These are the man-made conditions the liveaboard has to contend > with, and they are by far the most danger we face, far worse than > any weather, mechanical breakage, or navigation demands. > > > > Our own country, which we spent our lives helping to build and > supporting in many ways, has turned against us and has hired men > with guns to destroy us. > > > > > > Norm > > S/V Bandersnatch > > Lying Julington Creek > > 30 07.695N 081 38.484W > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Jeff S <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > *Sent:* 9/27/2008 5:42:59 PM > > *Subject:* Anchored in Julington Creek > > > > Hi Norm, > > > > I saw your posts on the Liveaboard forums. I live in the area > and drive over the bridge every day and have seen the number > of boats anchoring up west of the marinas. Does anyone else > live aboard there? My wife and I are talking about buying a > boat and I thought that would be a great place to stay. > > > > Thanks > > > > Jeff > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Liveaboard mailing list > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > To adjust your membership settings over the web > http://www.liveaboardnow.org/mailman/listinfo/liveaboard > To subscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To unsubscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > The archives are at http://www.liveaboardnow.org/pipermail/liveaboard/ > > To sear! ch the archives > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > The Mailman Users Guide can be found here > http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/index.html > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Liveaboard mailing list > [email protected] > To adjust your membership settings over the web http://www.liveaboardnow.org/mailman/listinfo/liveaboard > To subscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The archives are at http://www.liveaboardnow.org/pipermail/liveaboard/ > > To search the archives http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > The Mailman Users Guide can be found here http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/index.html -- Philip McConnell USSV Gryphon 1987 Tayana 52 CC Cutter Punta Gorda, FL _______________________________________________ Liveaboard mailing list [email protected] To adjust your membership settings over the web http://www.liveaboardnow.org/mailman/listinfo/liveaboard To subscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The archives are at http://www.liveaboardnow.org/pipermail/liveaboard/ To search the archives http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] The Mailman Users Guide can be found here http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/index.html _______________________________________________ Liveaboard mailing list [email protected] To adjust your membership settings over the web http://www.liveaboardnow.org/mailman/listinfo/liveaboard To subscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The archives are at http://www.liveaboardnow.org/pipermail/liveaboard/ To search the archives http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] The Mailman Users Guide can be found here http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/index.html
