Hmm. I actually like LIFECYCLE much better than CONFIG. However, QUIET seems like a very odd name.
Ralph On Jan 18, 2014, at 2:16 PM, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > For a more constructive answer, I would like to point out that Gradle adds > two logging levels: LIFECYCLE and QUIET. Their hierarchy is: ERROR > QUIET > > WARNING > LIFECYCLE > INFO > DEBUG. I'm not sure about their underlying > implementation, but it's somewhat useful. > > > On 18 January 2014 16:12, Nicholas Williams <nicho...@nicholaswilliams.net> > wrote: > I prefer to avoid markers whenever possible. Unlike levels, markers require > some amount of configuration to get them to log/not log when desired. They > don't "just work." > > N > > Sent from my iPhone from LAX baggage claim, so please forgive brief replies > and frequent typos > > On Jan 18, 2014, at 14:01, Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Markers all around! No logging levels, just allow markers to have ordinals >> or bit-flags to allow more flexible filtering. >> >> Sorry, nothing useful to add beyond wild speculations. >> >> >> On 18 January 2014 15:15, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >> Actually, here is how I would prefer it. Let’s see if it makes sense to >> anyone else. >> >> FATAL - Hopefully, almost never logged because the system is crashing. >> ERROR - Something affecting the usability of the system occurred. >> WARN - Something not nice, but probably recoverable occurred. May lead to >> errors later. >> INFO - Something of general interest, but not necessarily significant. >> DIAG or DIAGNOSTIC - Events that can be used by operations or users to >> diagnose problems in the system. >> DEBUG - Used by developers for internal debugging. >> VERBOSE - Used to log minute details of the system. As its dictionary >> definition implies this is extremely chatty. >> TRACE - Adds tracing of method entry and exit, possibly object creation and >> initialization. >> >> I believe these should be enough for anybody. I still think CONFIG is a >> Marker at the INFO level. The advantage of being a Marker is that it can be >> enabled regardless of its level and enabling it doesn’t imply enabling other >> levels. >> >> Ralph >> >> >> On Jan 18, 2014, at 1:03 PM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:21 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>> wrote: >>> STEP? No clue what that means. >>> >>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m OK with >>> that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc. DEBUG? >>> >>> Sounds OK, I can see it as debug data, but for users, instead of developers. >>> >>> Gary >>> >>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended usage >>> for levels and markers. >>> >>> Ralph >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence INFO < >>>> VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more DEBUG data. >>>> >>>> For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than 'verbose'. >>>> >>>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based on this >>>> basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for developers, there >>>> is no distinction in the audience. >>>> >>>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my >>>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the code. >>>> These can be two very different set of data. >>>> >>>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see INFO next >>>> to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful for developers. >>>> Each app can have its convention of course, but it would be nice to have >>>> the distinction available through levels for developers to use. >>>> >>>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low* level >>>> stuff. >>>> >>>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles): >>>> >>>> INFO >>>> VERBOSE >>>> DEBUG >>>> STEP >>>> TRACE >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO and DEBUG. >>>> Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that VERBOSE is usually more >>>> detailed than debug messages, not less. >>>> >>>> Ralph >>>> >>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I understand the need for CONFIG. However it isn’t clear to me whether >>>>> it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO. That is because it >>>>> typically would be used to log configuration during startup. That >>>>> doesn’t necessarily imply that you would then want to see all INFO >>>>> messages as well. Due to that, it would make more sense to me to make a >>>>> CONFIG marker. >>>>> >>>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER. >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m struggling >>>>> with how that is any different than TRACE. I guess the idea is that >>>>> TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE is for more detailed >>>>> debug messages? I suppose I can go along with that argument, but again >>>>> one could just as easily create a VERBOSE marker and attach it to either >>>>> TRACE or DEBUG. I guess I wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was added as a >>>>> Level but I’m not really convinced it is necessary either. >>>>> >>>>> Ralph >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much more >>>>>> flexibility than any predefined Levels. >>>>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and DEBUG. >>>>>> >>>>>> See >>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+udhe8+6jiubcz...@mail.gmail.com%3E >>>>>> >>>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, sorry I'm >>>>>> on my phone ATM. >>>>>> >>>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently though. >>>>>> I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound like a level to >>>>>> me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND a debug switch. So it >>>>>> makes sense to me too have corresponding levels. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gary >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>> From: Nick Williams >>>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00) >>>>>> To: Log4J Developers List >>>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA >>>>>> >>>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent lately due to >>>>>> the book consuming every minute of my free time. I know I haven't been >>>>>> contributing my due, and for that please accept my sincerest apologies. >>>>>> The book is finally done (goes on sale next month!) and I can get back >>>>>> to regular life. I'm going to be out of town for the next week on a >>>>>> much-needed vacation with very limited access to email. I'll be back the >>>>>> weekend of January 25-26, and that weekend I will be spending almost the >>>>>> entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 web application-related bugs. >>>>>> After that, I don't see any encumbrances to releasing 2.0.0.GA. >>>>>> >>>>>> Except... >>>>>> >>>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months ago, and a >>>>>> few months before that, and a few months before that, but we never >>>>>> actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now that my "extendable >>>>>> enum" proposal (that would be a drop-in replacement for and binary >>>>>> compatible with the current Level enum) is not going to be accepted. >>>>>> Absent any other proposals, I suggest we add the following new levels >>>>>> before GA: >>>>>> >>>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to other >>>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>> >>>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to other >>>>>> frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Be back soon, >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscr...@logging.apache.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-h...@logging.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition >>>> Spring Batch in Action >>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition >>> Spring Batch in Action >>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com> > > > > -- > Matt Sicker <boa...@gmail.com>
