I am of the opinion that the levels we have should be sufficient, but I have no objection to adding the levels below as it should provide enough flexibility to make everyone happy. One thing about levels over markers is that they are less expensive to filter since they are ints and they are copied from the loggerConfig to the logger, so I can see that as a minor justification for the extra levels.
Ralph > On Jan 20, 2014, at 8:15 PM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 11:08 PM, Scott Deboy <scott.de...@gmail.com> wrote: >> That looks good. Without all the trace levels IMO. >> > > Well, we'd want to keep the ONE TRACE level IMO: > > FATAL > ERROR > WARN > NOTICE* (NOTE) > INFO > DIAGNOSE* (DIAG, DIAGNOSTIC) > DEBUG > VERBOSE* > TRACE > > * New level. > > Gary > > > >> Scott >>> On Jan 20, 2014 7:49 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 10:40 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> If you really want extra logging levels without the long debate, just go >>>> copy the logging levels of Apache HTTPD. They already figured out where to >>>> place all the extra levels you guys are discussing and they've been around >>>> for years. It will be a worthy precedent to copy. >>>> >>> >>> That would be 16 levels then? >>> https://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.4/mod/core.html#loglevel >>> >>> Gary >>> >>>>> On Jan 20, 2014 9:09 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 9:54 PM, Paul Benedict <pbened...@apache.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> I know we had the debate of extra logging levels for the past year. The >>>>>> extra levels are very subjective. If anyone needs more than our standard >>>>>> five, please just use markers. We should even have a whole page on the >>>>>> site dedicated to such a solution. >>>>>> >>>>>> It really is impossible to get consensus on the subject. I never needed >>>>>> more then our standard levels and every proposal for more shows the >>>>>> confusion that no one is really clear where they belong. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think that with Ralphs list, we are getting a nice solution/evolution. >>>>> >>>>> The great thing about the new levels is that no one is forcing developers >>>>> to use the new levels, feel free to ignore them! ;) >>>>> >>>>> As a user, it is very easy to throttle how much log events you get, >>>>> change "DEBUG" to "VERBOSE" and you're done. >>>>> >>>>> OTOH, achieving the same effect with makers is more work IMO for >>>>> developers and users. So I look at markers as the workaround to the >>>>> 'levels are not fine enough for my app' problem. Saying "use markers" is >>>>> not a fair comparison to "change the level", from a dev and user POV. >>>>> Yes, it's a solution but a much heavier one. >>>>> >>>>> Gary >>>>> >>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014 2:27 PM, "Gary Gregory" <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Nicholas Williams >>>>>>>> <nicho...@nicholaswilliams.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> To be clear, here's how I see it (assuming we adopted all levels >>>>>>>> proposed): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FATAL > ERROR > WARN > CONFIG > INFO > VERBOSE > DEBUG > FINE > TRACE. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interesting, I would have swapped CONFIG and INFO. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can you talk a little more why CONFIG > INFO (and not INFO > CONFIG)? >>>>>>> For me, I would use VERBOSE for configuration logging. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> CONFIG would map to INFO for slf4j. VERBOSE and FINE would both map to >>>>>>>> DEBUG. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My motivation for FINE was similar to your motivation for VERBOSE: >>>>>>>> DEBUG isn't quite enough. In retrospect, I agree more with you that >>>>>>>> something is needed more on the INFO side of DEBUG rather than the >>>>>>>> TRACE side. That would allow DEBUG to be used for what it's really >>>>>>>> meant for. So I'm fine with VERBOSE instead. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My reason for putting CONFIG between INFO and WARN is simple: I ALWAYS >>>>>>>> want to see config-related messages when the application starts, but I >>>>>>>> don't always want to see INFO messages after it starts. And if >>>>>>>> something re-configures while the application is running, I want to >>>>>>>> see that, too. I've developed the habit of logging startup messages as >>>>>>>> WARNings, which I don't like doing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hope that helps some. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone from the Las Vegas airport, so please forgive >>>>>>>> brief replies and frequent typos >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 11:21, Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> STEP? No clue what that means. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gary, if you want to implement VERBOSE between INFO and DEBUG I’m OK >>>>>>>>> with that, but what will that map to in SLF4J, etc. DEBUG? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And yes, something on the web site should document our recommended >>>>>>>>> usage for levels and markers. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 10:53 AM, Gary Gregory <garydgreg...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ah, my view of VERBOSE is that it is _more_ information, hence INFO >>>>>>>>>> < VERBOSE < DEBUG; while it sounds like Ralphs sees it as more DEBUG >>>>>>>>>> data. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For me DEBUG data is going to be already verbose, even more than >>>>>>>>>> 'verbose'. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What is interesting (to me) is that DEBUG is often misused based on >>>>>>>>>> this basic mix: debug messages can be for users *and/or* for >>>>>>>>>> developers, there is no distinction in the audience. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For example, as a user, I want to get data to help me debug my >>>>>>>>>> configuration and my process. As a developer, I want to debug the >>>>>>>>>> code. These can be two very different set of data. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But we do not have DEBUG_USER and DEBUG_DEV levels. I would see INFO >>>>>>>>>> next to VERBOSE as useful to users. Then DEBUG and TRACE useful for >>>>>>>>>> developers. Each app can have its convention of course, but it would >>>>>>>>>> be nice to have the distinction available through levels for >>>>>>>>>> developers to use. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I see TRACE as method entry and exit type of logging, *very* *low* >>>>>>>>>> level stuff. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We could also have both (ducking for projectiles): >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> INFO >>>>>>>>>> VERBOSE >>>>>>>>>> DEBUG >>>>>>>>>> STEP >>>>>>>>>> TRACE >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Ralph Goers >>>>>>>>>>> <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Oops. I just noticed you proposed that VERBOSE be between INFO and >>>>>>>>>>> DEBUG. Now that I don’t understand. My experience is that VERBOSE >>>>>>>>>>> is usually more detailed than debug messages, not less. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Ralph Goers >>>>>>>>>>>> <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I understand the need for CONFIG. However it isn’t clear to me >>>>>>>>>>>> whether it belongs between INFO and WARN or DEBUG and INFO. That >>>>>>>>>>>> is because it typically would be used to log configuration during >>>>>>>>>>>> startup. That doesn’t necessarily imply that you would then want >>>>>>>>>>>> to see all INFO messages as well. Due to that, it would make more >>>>>>>>>>>> sense to me to make a CONFIG marker. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t really understand the point of FINE or FINER. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, VERBOSE does make a bit more sense, but I’m >>>>>>>>>>>> struggling with how that is any different than TRACE. I guess the >>>>>>>>>>>> idea is that TRACE is for control flow (entry, exit) and VERBOSE >>>>>>>>>>>> is for more detailed debug messages? I suppose I can go along >>>>>>>>>>>> with that argument, but again one could just as easily create a >>>>>>>>>>>> VERBOSE marker and attach it to either TRACE or DEBUG. I guess I >>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn’t object if VERBOSE was added as a Level but I’m not really >>>>>>>>>>>> convinced it is necessary either. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Ralph >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2014, at 7:08 AM, Remko Popma <remko.po...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I've always liked Ralph's argument that Markers give users much >>>>>>>>>>>>> more flexibility than any predefined Levels. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I would prefer to stick to the log4j/slf4j level names. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 18, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Gary Gregory >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <garydgreg...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, I have been wanting a VERBOSE level better INFO and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> DEBUG. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> See >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4j-dev/201310.mbox/%3CCACZkXPxNwYbn__CbXUqFhC7e3Q=kee94j+udhe8+6jiubcz...@mail.gmail.com%3E >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You'll have to dig a little in that ref to find my proposal, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorry I'm on my phone ATM. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It sounds like we see logging configuration messages differently >>>>>>>>>>>>>> though. I do not like the name CONFIG because it does not sound >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like a level to me. Otoh, many command lines have a verbose AND >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a debug switch. So it makes sense to me too have corresponding >>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gary >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original message -------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Nick Williams >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date:01/17/2014 23:50 (GMT-05:00) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Log4J Developers List >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Web Issues, Logging Levels, and GA >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wanted to update y'all. As you know, I've been very absent >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lately due to the book consuming every minute of my free time. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> know I haven't been contributing my due, and for that please >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accept my sincerest apologies. The book is finally done (goes on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sale next month!) and I can get back to regular life. I'm going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be out of town for the next week on a much-needed vacation >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with very limited access to email. I'll be back the weekend of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> January 25-26, and that weekend I will be spending almost the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> entire time finally dealing with the 8-10 web >>>>>>>>>>>>>> application-related bugs. After that, I don't see any >>>>>>>>>>>>>> encumbrances to releasing 2.0.0.GA. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Logging Levels. We kinda-sorta talked about this a few months >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ago, and a few months before that, and a few months before that, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but we never actually DID anything about it. It's clear by now >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that my "extendable enum" proposal (that would be a drop-in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> replacement for and binary compatible with the current Level >>>>>>>>>>>>>> enum) is not going to be accepted. Absent any other proposals, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggest we add the following new levels before GA: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CONFIG - Between INFO and WARN, mapped to INFO for bridges to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> FINE - Between DEBUG and TRACE, mapped to TRACE for bridges to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other frameworks that don't have an equivalent level >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll let y'all chat about that over the next week. ;-) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Be back soon, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nick >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscr...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> log4j-dev-h...@logging.apache.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>>>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition >>>>>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action >>>>>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition >>>>>>> Spring Batch in Action >>>>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>>>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>>>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition >>>>> Spring Batch in Action >>>>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>>>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>>>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org >>> Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition >>> JUnit in Action, Second Edition >>> Spring Batch in Action >>> Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com >>> Home: http://garygregory.com/ >>> Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory > > > > -- > E-Mail: garydgreg...@gmail.com | ggreg...@apache.org > Java Persistence with Hibernate, Second Edition > JUnit in Action, Second Edition > Spring Batch in Action > Blog: http://garygregory.wordpress.com > Home: http://garygregory.com/ > Tweet! http://twitter.com/GaryGregory
