>Hi Michael,
>please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never >wrote music in
>tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well >as the lute version
>(pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in >standard notation
Hi Thomas, Then I stand corrected. However according to Toyohiko
Satoh, he mentions that the c-minor prelude is an original lute piece by
Bach. I remember reading somewhere, and I don't know where, that the
original source for this is from Kellner's MS and it exists only in
tablature. As for the rest of Bach's lute music, I wish not to go there, as
I've heard every angle of this, and we could go on forever.
Michael Thames
www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lutelist" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the Book of
Perrine
> Hi Michael,
>
> please inform yourself before claiming things: Bach never wrote music in
> tablature. The small c-minor prelude (BWV999) as well as the lute version
> (pour Schouster) of the Cello-Suite are both written in standard notation.
>
> The contemporary tablatures for the baroque lute were done by Falckenhagen
and
> Weyrauch.
>
> To name just one (modern) edition of lute music in a single stave I would
> suggest Chilesotti's collections (among many others).
>
> Actually I don't think th eway you notate music isn't important. Every
system
> has advantages and disadvantages. I personally am reading continuo from
the
> bass-clef, for solo music I am preferring tablature. The notation in
"grand
> staff" is uncomfortable but actually no problem to read, too.
>
> As I've read the last issue of "the Lute" I had a big laugh about the
table of
> content because I think MO is quite famous for his preference for pitch
> notation. His article is - as always - a entertaing (although
occassionally
> annoying) mixture of information and agitation. I wondered that the Lute
> Society published such an article. But it's interesting and maybe leads to
a
> discussion (whatever the sense of this may be).
>
> Best wishes
> Thomas
>
> Am Dienstag, 5. Juli 2005 17:05 schrieb Michael Thames:
> > I am indeed ignorant of many things. However, as I've said, I do take
issue
> > with so called scholars making derogatory remarks, concerning the well
> > established site reading practices, of guitarists for the past 2
centuries,
> > which astonishingly, you called a recent development. I did sense a
> > haughtiness in your remarks, which compelled me to respond.
> >
> > >Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, >J.S.Bach,
Vivaldi,
> > > three anonymous composers from the >18th-century (formerly in Bob
> > > Spencer's collection) all wrote >lute music in pitch notation using
two
> > > staves
> >
> > I really don't know what to say to this. I'm speechless!
> > To suggest that these composers wrote lute music, is again
astonishing!
> > The only original lute music Bach wrote was in Tablature, and I
think
> > by now Mr.Ness, most scholars accept Bach wrote none. As far as Byrd
goes,
> > do you include lute arrangements for keyboard, lute music? As far as
> > Couperin, do you also include writing in the style of lute music, lute
> > music? as far as Julio da Modena, and Chambonieres goes I've never even
> > heard of them, as I said before I am ignorant. However if I follow your
> > train of thought, logic would conclude that these composers most likely
did
> > some kind of arrangements for lute as well. I'm sure one can find
isolated
> > cases in which lute music was written in grand staff, but not by a
single
> > major composer or lutenist! To suggest this sets a president, is the
same
> > as you saying modern guitar notation is a recent development, very
> > misleading! and a huge stretch.
> >
> > > Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand >staff,
Even
> > > many guitarists today advocate guitar music on >two staves, and a
recent
> > > edition (ca. 2002) of arrangements >of Bach for solo guitar is notated
> > > for ease in reading on two >staves. Maybe you'd better start
practicing
> > > your bass clef, >before it's too late. Actually guitar notation on a
> > > single stave >is a fairly recent phenomenon, dating from the late
> > > 18th->/early 19th century
> >
> > I don't play any instrument which would require me to read bass
> > clef, but thanks for your inappropriate advice just the same. Again, if
I
> > follow your logic you are simply saying that guitar notation has been
the
> > norm from the very beginning and conception of the guitar itself , the "
> > late 18th century, a fairly redundant remark. That's the same as saying
> > violin music has only been around since the invention of the violin. Who
> > established so called "universal lute music" I've never heard of such a
> > term.
> >
> > >Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch >notation on
a
> > > single staff? Except for guitar editions,I don't >even know any
modern
> > > editions of lute music on a single >stave. Do you? And it's virtually
> > > impossible to notate >baroque lute music on a single stave
> >
> > I know of zero, lute music written on any staff.
> > The point is, who are you making these editions for, lutenists, and
> > guitarists or some imaginary scholar or keyboard entity? This might well
> > satisfy your academic desires, but is hardy practible, in today's world.
> > Might I suggest, you come down off your high horse, and instead of
> > suggesting guitarists conform to your way of thinking, you might conform
to
> > thier's. Michael Thames
> > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Arthur Ness
> > To: Michael Thames
> > Cc: lute list
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 2:54 AM
> > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
Book
> > of Perrine
> >
> >
> > I think you just demonstrate your ignorance when you write things like
> > this, Michael. And snide, rude remarks just create a hostile
environment,
> > and weaken your argument, if you had one. You do not help your advocacy
of
> > guitar music with such an attitude. No one here is attempting to
ridicule
> > the guitar and guitar music, or even prove the superiority of lute music
> > over guitar music. Unlike the frequent complaint of playing Bach on a
> > concert grand piano, I have never even heard purists complain about
playing
> > lute music on guitar. And the complaint is a valid one, although I do
not
> > subscribe to it.
> >
> > Julio da Modena, Byrd, Bull, Couperin, Chambonieres, J.S.Bach,
Vivaldi,
> > three anonymous composers from the 18th-century (formerly in Bob
Spencer's
> > collection) all wrote lute music in pitch notation using two staves. I
> > know of four or five large manuscripts in Darmstadt, Stockholm,St.
> > Petersburg, Wroclaw, containing lute music in pitch notation. And many
> > others are doubtlessly waiting to be disclosed when James Tyler finishes
> > his work.
> >
> > Do you know of any historical lute music written in pitch notation on
a
> > single staff? Except for guitar editions,I don't even know any modern
> > editions of lute music on a single stave. Do you? And it's virtually
> > impossible to notate baroque lute music on a single stave.
> >
> > Universally lute music in pitch notation uses the grand staff, Even
many
> > guitarists today advocate guitar music on two staves, and a recent
edition
> > (ca. 2002) of arrangements of Bach for solo guitar is notated for ease
in
> > reading on two staves. Maybe you'd better start practicing your bass
clef,
> > before it's too late. Actually guitar notation on a single stave is a
> > fairly recent phenomenon, dating from the late 18th-/early 19th century.
> >
> > AJN.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Michael Thames
> > To: Mathias R=F6sel ; Arthur Ness
> > Cc: lute list
> > Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 1:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> > Book of Perrine
> >
> > > For centuries lute music has been notated on two staves
> >
> > Yes, and I chart daytime stars, in my spare time.
> > Michael Thames
> > www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Mathias R=F6sel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: "lute list" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 10:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first- the
> > Book of Perrine
> >
> > > Dear Mathias,
> > >
> > > I had to join that group in order to see Doug Towne's work. But I
> > > cannot
> >
> > open the files. Do I have to buy Fronimo to do that? How much does
it
> > cost? Wouldn't it be more convenient to have them in *.PDF format,
> > like wayne does?
> >
> > > I am unaware of any discussions about publishing lute music in
guitar
> >
> > notation rather than the standard lute notation on the grand staff.
NB
> > the proper term is NOT "keyboard." That's an obsession from the guitar
> > world. (Perhaps disease is an exaggeration.<g>) For centuries lute
music
> > has been notated on two staves.
> >
> > > I find Matanya's article in the current issue of The Lute to be
> > > rather
> >
> > shallow. He does not discuss all of the relevant issues, and misses
> > some important milestones in the publication of lute music. Some of the
> > most significant editions are left unmentioned in his article, including
> > the recent A-R Editions, CNRS, Die Tabulatur, Ut Orpheus (Italy), etc.
> >
> > > He does not identify that Russian piece, which is Dowland's
Farewell
> >
> > Fantasia. Apparently he fears it might pale in comparison with Mrs.
> > Poulton's work, and practically everyone else who ever transcribed
it.
> > And why is there no mention of lute music in pitch notation done by
Julio
> > da Modena, Byrd, Couperin, Chambonieres, Vivaldi, J. S. Bach, et al.?
> >
> > > To picture Gombosi's commentary of the Schrade system is a bald
> > > attempt to
> >
> > sensationalize his point ofview. Very few editors of lute music
> > followed Schrade's example, including his own pupils. And Schrade didn't
> > even respond to Gombosi's review. One Polish edition used the Schrade
> > method, and five years later the editors withdrew the edition and
replaced
> > it with one of the same music done up in conventional lute notation on
the
> > grand staff. Since the Gombosi review appeared (1930s) hundreds of
edition
> > of lute music have appeared, and surely not more than four or five use
the
> > Schrade method, including one horrendous edition of the Narvaez book for
> > guitar (the editor obviously knew nothing about early music).
> >
> > > ajn
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mathias R=F6sel"
> > > Cc: lute list
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 1:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: French Lutenist about to release a worldwide first-
> > > the
> >
> > Book of Perrine
> >
> > > "Arthur Ness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> > > > There are two books of lute music by Perrine (first name
> > > > unknown).
> >
> > Civiol's
> >
> > > > web page just gives the introductory text with English
> > > > translation.
> > >
> > > That is correct. I'm sorry for my erroneous posting. It's
Douglas
> > > Towne who reintabulated Perrine into Fronimo tab. It is accessible
at
> > >
> > >
> > >
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fronimo_editor/files/Tablatures/
> > >
> > > > Lute music in pitch notation has historically often been on
two
> >
> > staves.
> >
> > > > That is the standard way of notating lute music in pitch
> > > > notation.
> > >
> > > may I recommend at this occasion Matanya's very well informed
> > > article about historical pitch notation of lute music in the
recent
> > > issue of The Lute (British Lute Society's yearbook). If I got it
> > > right, arguments are still going on as for which notation (piano
vs.
> > > guitar) is more appropiate.
> > >
> > > All the best,
> > >
> > > Mathias
> > > --
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > --
>
> --
> Thomas Schall
> Niederhofheimer Weg 3
> D-65843 Sulzbach
> 06196/74519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
> Wiesentalstrasse 41
> CH-8355 Aadorf
>
> http://www.lautenist.de
> http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
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> http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/
>
>
>
