Edward
Thank you for this detailed reply.
> My 11 course lute is a Frei, copy of the Mouton lute. It is also
> short, as you mentioned, at 67 cm. The desirable thing about that
> short length is that a gut treble will stay on for a long time,
> even months. For my 70.5 cm 13 course (Burkholtzer), a gut treble
> breaks much too often. I think 67 or 68 is the upper limit for f
> at 415... any longer, and string breakage is a problem. So, in
> order to make it work effectively, in gut, I have to lower the pitch.
>
> If you want to play both French and later German music on your 11
> course, I would advise to get perhaps a larger body than the small
> Frei (as I have). It has a very sensitive, beautiful sound, but
> the larger instrument will certainly project more volume & depth in
> sound.
It was the Jakob Lindberg recording of Weiss on his 11c Rauwolf that
made me think this could be possible? Although during the London
meeting, I felt his lute sung best at on the Denis Gaultier.
Interestingly, the Denis Gaultier text "Rhétorique des Dieux"
includes many "drawings" of lutes and they are all rather round-
bodied, not at all Frei shaped or even "Mouton" shaped. Another point
might be that this Rauwolf is fan-barred which is supposed to
underline the fundamental rather than the harmonic structure as J-
barring is supposed to do. Perhaps this shape and barring would be
better for later French to German Baroque. Presumably, the Frei with
J-barring would nevertheless cover the whole French Baroque period.
This makes does me hesitate as the "very sensitive, beautiful sound"
of the Frei is so tempting.
> I am sorry if I indicated that the 12th & 13th courses were single
> strung... they are in fundamental & octave, traditional stringing.
> I said "simple", not "single". Simple implies no fancy swan neck,
> a standard bass rider. And yes, with good stringing, it has
> wonderful sound, volume depth, and warmth of sound.
Yes I did misunderstand the notion simple strung as meaning just
single diapason. I was reading the French list at the same time on a
similar topic, about the existence of archlutes with single
diapasons, and so I interpreted your remark in light of this.
although I was a little surprised that this might be possible on a 13
course.
Reading and answering to two lists in two languages on roughly the
same topic can lead to confusion.
The two topics were so close. On the French list the question raised
was about the historical validity of single diapason archlutes, but
also the possibility of stringing archlutes in gut.
Again one lutist enthusiastically defended the beauty of the gut
sound even on an arch lute (Pascal Gallon http://luth.chez-
alice.fr/); and a number of other lutists declared that they would
like to try gut. In France, unlike the UK, in recent years lutists
seemed to have gone completely over to Nylgut, and French lutemakers
appeared to have largely gone along with this fashion. Although
Stephen Murphy, in France, and Carlos Gonzales in Spain (but with
ties in France) are still very much open to producing gut strung lutes.
> Foir archlutes or theorbos, one can get very long mensurs. My
> archlute is in all gut diapasons, and the length is about 140 cm.
Yes Howard Posner says he uses theorbo gut at 167 cm. Clearly the
limit might be realated to the strength of the top strings, as you
have suggested yourself.
>
> Please listen to Toyohiko Satoh's recording of Weichemberger, or to
> Paul Beier's recording of 11 course Weiss. Both have 11 course
> lutes entirely strung in gut, and they are astonishingly beautiful.
I will try to listen to them, but on computer there is no way i am
going to hear the delicate nuances of gut strings; I wonder if these
recordings are still edited*. I have of course heard Jakob Lindberg's
Rauwolf playing both German and French music, which he said was
entirely strung in gut. He mentioned Sofracob, but I thought I saw
that the lowest diapasons had that tell-tale reddishness of Mimmo
Peruffo's loaded gut.
*This leads me to a separate question about listening systems, but I
won't add that here as it is not directly relevant to our topic.
Thank you again for your help and advice. It is really appreciated.
Regards
Anthony
Le 9 févr. 07 à 00:27, Edward Martin a écrit :
> My 11 course lute is a Frei, copy of the Mouton lute. It is also
> short, as
> you mentioned, at 67 cm. The desirable thing about that short
> length is
> that a gut treble will stay on for a long time, even months. For
> my 70.5
> cm 13 course (Burkholtzer), a gut treble breaks much too often. I
> think 67
> or 68 is the upper limit for f at 415... any longer, and string
> breakage is
> a problem. So, in order to make it work effectively, in gut, I
> have to
> lower the pitch.
>
> If you want to play both French and later German music on your 11
> course, I
> would advise to get perhaps a larger body than the small Frei (as I
> have). It has a very sensitive, beautiful sound, but the larger
> instrument will certainly project more volume & depth in sound.
>
> I am sorry if I indicated that the 12th & 13th courses were single
> strung... they are in fundamental & octave, traditional stringing.
> I said
> "simple", not "single". Simple implies no fancy swan neck, a
> standard bass
> rider. And yes, with good stringing, it has wonderful sound,
> volume depth,
> and warmth of sound.
>
> Foir archlutes or theorbos, one can get very long mensurs. My
> archlute is
> in all gut diapasons, and the length is about 140 cm.
>
> Please listen to Toyohiko Satoh's recording of Weichemberger, or to
> Paul
> Beier's recording of 11 course Weiss. Both have 11 course lutes
> entirely
> strung in gut, and they are astonishingly beautiful.
>
> ed
>
>
>
> At 06:34 PM 2/8/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
>> Dear Ed
>> The 14 course Gottlieb lute had a superb sound, and the
>> extra length
>> of the swan-neck may indeed have been a help for the bass.
>> I suppose that this could mean, if I go for an 11 course Baroque luth
>> for French music, I should go for a longish string length, perhaps 69
>> cms or more, rather than the 67cm Mouton type lute. Would you advise
>> gimped strings on the lower courses?
>>
>> As an amateur, I think I can only have one Baroque lute. I am most
>> drawn to the French repertoire, which Is why I felt drawn to an 11C
>> lute, perhaps of the Frei type; but I noticed that 11c has not
>> prevented Jakob Heringman from playing 11c Weiss (although perhaps
>> this would not work on a Frei type?).
>>
>> However, your mention that your 13c swan-neck lute has single strings
>> on the 12th and 13th course. This makes me wonder whether it would be
>> feasible (on a non-swan-neck lute) to do the same thing. I am just
>> thinking this would give access to 13c music without raising the
>> weight of the instrument too much, giving basically an 11c lute but
>> with 13c possibilities (actually the size of the rare 12c lute).
>>
>> Perhaps this would be too much of a monstrosity. Sometimes less is
>> more, but I would be pleased to hear your thoughts. I realize this
>> would lose the advantage of the very long strings on your swan-necked
>> lute.
>>
>> It is amusing to see that a parallel topic has just developed on the
>> French Luth-list about the possibility of stringing an arch-lutes in
>> gut.
>> One person thought that it was not possible to use a gut lute string
>> over 114 cms. Obviously, this must depend on diameter, but would you
>> know whether there is any such limit?
>>
>> What would be the longest useable gut string for an arch-lute or
>> theorbo be?
>> regards
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 8 févr. 07 à 13:52, Edward Martin a écrit :
>>
>> > Dear Anthony,
>> >
>> > Yes, it is entirely possible to string a baroque lute entirely in
>> > gut. I have done that for the past 10 - 11 years, and enjoy it
>> > very, very much. The sound is lovely, but the "touch" is a bit
>> > different that one needs to adjust his/her technique.
>> >
>> > I especially think the swan necked baroque lutes work great with
>> > gut, as the increased length makes it a perfect sound. When using
>> > metal wound strings on those long lengths, in my opinion, it sounds
>> > "tinny" or jangly" (no flames, please).
>> >
>> > My baroque lute (!3 course) has a simple bass rider for the 12th &
>> > 13th courses, but the sound is fabulous in gut. No, it does not
>> > cause extensive string damage ( exception - trebles). Some of my
>> > bass strings have been on for over 10 years, and they actually
>> > improve with age.
>> >
>> > ed
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > At 11:19 AM 2/8/2007 +0100, Anthony Hind wrote:
>> >> Andrew, Edward, Stephen and All
>> >> I agree whole-heartedly with Edward's message, I am but an
>> >> amateur,
>> >> and in a way amateurs have an advantage over professionals. The
>> >> difficulty with gut (as suggested by Ed.) is mainly when a large
>> >> concert room fills up with people and the humidity suddenly
>> jumps up
>> >> (as we saw with Jakob Lindberg in London). Indeed, I can almost
>> >> predict the weather, and have no need for a barometer, as the
>> change
>> >> in tension of my gut strings often allows me to predict whether
>> I am
>> >> going to need an umbrella!
>> >>
>> >> I think a number of professional lutists use nylgut or similar
>> when
>> >> playing in public, for that reason; but then when they record use
>> >> gut.
>> >> Jacob Heringman does that, according to his Ed Durbrow interview.
>> >> Certainly, Jakob Lindberg has used loaded gut diapasons
>> (explicitly
>> >> stated in his Dowland record) and his Rauwolf was strung in
>> gut. Paul
>> >> O'Dette used to use gut on his Renaissance lute records when he
>> >> recorded for Astrée CNRS, and so did Hopkinson Smith.
>> >>
>> >> As an amateur, I can usually avoid these extreme changes, and
>> if like
>> >> myself, you are not a very good lutist, you need all the help
>> you can
>> >> get. A very well sounding lute strung in gut will sound so
>> pleasant
>> >> even when playing a few notes. There is also the touch of the
>> >> strings. Gut strings react in a very different way even to nylgut.
>> >> The top strings are a problem and I must admit I recently
>> compromised
>> >> by using a top string in nylgut. The cost (over a few years) on
>> one
>> >> lute is not as bad as it first appears. The lower strings do
>> last a
>> >> very long time. Of course, if you have a whole collection of
>> lutes,
>> >> the problem is obviously greater.
>> >>
>> >> However, I personally feel that, on a Renaissance lute, gut is
>> almost
>> >> mandatory for the diapasons (gimped work too), if you don't
>> want the
>> >> bass "voice" to drown-out the higher "voices" (this always
>> tends to
>> >> happen with metal wounds, or the player must constantly damp these
>> >> strings). If you can use gut throughout, the "voices" become so
>> well
>> >> balanced, and the sound of the strings more "homogenous", I agree
>> >> with Martin that the 5th string sounds beautiful. It is of course
>> >> more difficult to make the heavier 6 and 7 diapasons sing, but I
>> >> think technique develops to help this, and at least you don't
>> have to
>> >> keep damping them. Martin Shepherd (I think) suggested using a
>> >> slightly thinner diapason than usual and a slightly thicker
>> octave,
>> >> so as to achieve the same overall course tension.
>> >>
>> >> I often hear lutes strung in fluour-carbon and I always feel they
>> >> begin to sound like mandolins. I do feel nylgut is a much better
>> >> compromise,.
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps, on a Baroque lute the situation might be a little
>> different.
>> >> The much higher cost of the strings could become problematic.
>> >> Nevertheless, when I visited Stephen Gottlieb's atelier a
>> couple of
>> >> years ago, he had a 14 course swan-neck lute entirely strung in
>> gut,
>> >> and I must admit that the sound was superb. If Ed says gut is
>> >> possible on a Baroque lute, when I finally oder my 11 course,
>> for the
>> >> French Baroque music that I love, I will just have to use gut.
>> >>
>> >> However, as yet, I have never lived with a gut strung Baroque
>> lute,
>> >> so I don't know how great the problems may be. I am told that the
>> >> greater string lengths and tensions do become a problem and do
>> cause
>> >> very expensive string breakage. However, the solution may be to
>> use
>> >> lower tensions. There was a thread recently (I believe begun my
>> >> Martin Shepherd) about the advantages of lutes strung at low
>> >> tensions. It seemed that with gut strings, a lower tension was not
>> >> necessarily a problem.
>> >> I apologize if these issues have been discussed exhaustively
>> over the
>> >> last years and I am returning to a totally worn-out topic. I fear
>> >> this is quite likely to be the case.
>> >> Regards
>> >> Anthony
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Le 8 févr. 07 à 00:33, Edward Martin a écrit :
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > Andrew,
>> >> >
>> >> > Actually, many professionals use nylgut - Paul O'Dette, Nigel
>> >> North,
>> >> > Hopkinson Smith. I think (but, I am uncertain) that Rolf
>> Lislevand
>> >> > uses
>> >> > them as well. I know Jakob Lindberg used to use them.
>> >> >
>> >> > I have my renaissance 8 course in partial nylgut, because I
>> have to
>> >> > use
>> >> > that instrument under difficult situations. Otherwise, I mostly
>> >> > use gut,
>> >> > for vihuela, 10 course, baroque guitar, 11 course, and my 13
>> >> > course. Yes,
>> >> > the tuning is sometimes an issue, along with treble string
>> >> > breakage, but
>> >> > the wonderful rich sound of gut makes it all worth while. If
>> one
>> >> > equilibrates the instrument to the room, tuning works well.
>> When I
>> >> > perform
>> >> > in gut, I must get to the hall 3 hours in advance to insure good
>> >> > tuning.
>> >> >
>> >> > Sometimes I regret not using synthetics, but gut is the most
>> >> > satisfying
>> >> > sound of all, so I stick with it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Someone said earlier today that the 5th course is a problem, but
>> >> > the Pistoy
>> >> > 5th is, in my opinion, the most beautiful string imaginable, for
>> >> > either a
>> >> > renaissance or baroque lute.
>> >> >
>> >> > ed
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > At 01:22 PM 2/7/2007 +0000, Andrew Gibbs wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Do any serious players use nylgut synthetic strings? perhaps
>> >> more for
>> >> >> renaissance than baroque lutes...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Andrew
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On 7 Feb 2007, at 12:02, Stephan Olbertz wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Dear all,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> the bridge of my baroque lute came off recently (ouch), but it
>> >> has
>> >> >>> been
>> >> >>> fixed and I would like to take the "opportunity" to put new
>> >> strings
>> >> >>> on and
>> >> >>> maybe switch to gut. Dan Larsons strings would sum up to about
>> >> 360
>> >> >>> $ (ouch
>> >> >>> again), Aquila is about the same. Does anyone know what
>> Sofracob
>> >> >>> charges
>> >> >>> for a (13c) set? I couldn't find any information on the web...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Regards,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Stephan
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> >> >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> >> >>>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Edward Martin
>> >> > 2817 East 2nd Street
>> >> > Duluth, Minnesota 55812
>> >> > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> > voice: (218) 728-1202
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Edward Martin
>> > 2817 East 2nd Street
>> > Duluth, Minnesota 55812
>> > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > voice: (218) 728-1202
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> voice: (218) 728-1202
>
>
>
