Dear Anthony, I fear you might have misunderstood my last: the earlier speculation was indeed that a single gut so selected and processed with minimal 'rectifying' was stronger: one of the factors put forward as contributing towards string weakness was the rectifying and/or polishing process which perhaps might break cross fibres on the surface and so lead to reduced breaking stress. If you're a relative new comer to this area you probably not be aware that all this, including breeds of sheep, castration, etc, has been quite widely discussed before and in other forums (eg FoMRHI). .Finally, I must thank you for not discouraging me........................ MH Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry, my last message had the level of quotation removed, so impossible to understand. I will try again
Le 25 août 07 à 08:49, Martyn Hodgson a écrit : > > Dear Anthony, > > I do, of course, generally bow to Mimmo Peruffo's undoubted > experience and knowledge of gut strings and, indeed, very much > look forward to his revamped loaded strings due to be launched this > Autumn. However, the use of a single gut was not my speculation > but a view which has been put forward for some time (Eph Segerman > for one): the idea was not that trebles were made from a single > piece cut from one large gut (which might contain many local > irregularities) but from a single, slightly trimmed and > particularly well selected, smaller gut. I recall that the tapered > strings described in the Capirola MS were also cited as supporting > evidence. Dear Martyn I don't think M.P. questions that a single gut could have been used to make a treble, but rather that it would be stronger than a twist of sliced gut. He mentions both type of string in his article in the Lute news N=B0 79 P.14-15, and concludes that the complex string was stronger than the simple one. I have made no such experiments myself, so I can't judge. I also wondered whether older sheep breeds (that have now been lost) might have had different gut qualities; but again that is complete speculation on my part. I also wonder whether the type of grass (salt marsh, hill farming, etc...), could have any effect; but I am again speculating. However, even if it were true that an old breed of sheep, say the Soam, would give excellent gut, particularly if you castrated the rams, and if you fed them on whatever, fodder, it seems unlikely that there is the finance for such experimentation, unless the CNRS receives vastly increased funds for musical projects, (from President Sarkozy, I am joking) as they did in the 60s and 70s (see the CNRS Astree lute recordings and lute editions) , or the American military finance fundamental research again, as they did in the 60s for American Linguists (Yes, Noam Chomsky's first linguist productions were actually financed by the American military establishment, and I have never seen a fighter knocked down by one of his text-books -- well, no, they naively hoped to use them to break Soviet codes.) > > My reason for price concern is that with 16 partly or fully gut > strung (and fretted) instruments to maintain the cost of gut can be > a real issue (as no doubt for the Old Ones - look how much some > were paid to keep their instruments in strings). I think gut strings may have cost ten times the price they do now to the Old Ones. However, I made no comment on that. Obviously, the more instruments we have the more expensive it becomes. I am not going to discourage you. There are not so many people with that number of instruments who keep them in gut. I suggested you might look at Purr'll gut, because I saw how cheap they would be for top strings (and these do break so frequently). Others use Sofracob, for similar reasons, but they are not all that strong. I often use Kurschner, for the simple reason that a local shop stocks them, just round the corner from me. I had problems with them, however, buzzing and untrue on my 4th course, and now I use Venice in that position For myself, I have only one lute, I hope soon two. Therefore, I see gut strings as not being that expensive (price of a glass of wine at a restaurant); when we see that the string makers have generally made this research for their own benefit, and don't really pass on all their fundamental costs. I would not be surprised if we are partly subsidized by synthetics purchasers. > > I'm also interested in the responses that Universale's strings > are particularly strong - I wonder if they wholesale supply some > better known companies who may not actually make their own gut from > scratch (eg Kurschner)? I don't know about any relation between Unviersale/Kurschener, but Mimmo says that there is a relation between Baroco/Universale. Saytoh uses Unversale tops according to Ed for their strength. David says they are a little harsh. Maybe there is a relation between stiffness/strength and harshness. You may not be able to have everything in one string. A year ago, Universale told me that they made two string types, one Cow (I don't know whether it is actually Ox, as in 'as strong as an ox', David, the other Ram. The Cow was the cheaper of the two. They said the Ram was warmer but more fragile. I have not tried either, but Ed and David have much experience, and contact with gut users. I think if we put what both say, together with what Universale actually says, then you may be able to have a cheaper stronger, but harsher cow string, or a more expensive, but more fragile sheep (or ram) string. Again I have no direct experience of this. When I have bought strings, the animal origin has never been marked on it. In this respect, it could be interesting to compare Kurschner and Nick Baldock's top strings. They are supposed to be similar in process, but the Kurschner are supposed to be stiffer, and the Baldock softer and more flexible. I would predict more warmth, but less strength in the Baldock, according to the above, but I don't know. However, I thought that the strength was at least partly determined by the various solutions the gut was soaked in and also the way it is twisted. Then of course varnish may help a string last, but also make it squeaky, as David says. Mimmo Peruffo is also using a process of semi-rectification which damages the fibres less (as in the hand rectification of old strings). Good luck with your research, and get back to us with your results. It would be good to have a database of peoples experiments with strings on particular lutes, to refer to. However, strings are such a personal matter, it may be difficult to do other than experiment oneself. Martin Shepherd seems to be absent from the discussion (perhaps esacaping the weather), but he often has wise words on gut strings. As he strings his lutes for his clients, and also teaches, he probably comes into contact with more string situations than many of us. Best regards Anthony > > MH > > > Anthony Hind wrote: > Mimmo > You are right to say that few of us know anything about string > making. I try to glean information from various places on the web, > and largely fill in with my imagination, I fear. > > I also have to interpret what I read and without actually seeing the > processes, probably misunderstand. > > I hope some of what I said was near the mark, but do feel free to > correct me, I do want to learn. > Best regards > Anthony > > Le 24 aout 07 =E0 18:54, Mimmo Peruffo a ecrit : > >> No, no! martin is in mistake >> A whole single gut produce a more irregular and weaker string than >> those made from split strands. >> I find a lot of these affermations on the web from those that know >> nothng or few about stringmaking. >> Strings amed with more strand, at the same gauges are: >> more uniform >> more strong >> Ciao >> Mimmo >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________ >> >> Aquila Corde Armoniche S.a.s >> www.aquilacorde.com >> Phone +39 0444 986972 >> Fax +39 0444 989399 >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Anthony Hind >> To: Martyn Hodgson ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net >> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 6:49 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gut strings - 'Universale corde musicali' >> >> Martyn >> I just had a thought. If price is your main concern, for whatever >> reason, you could look at Banjo strings. Martin Shepherd, I think, >> told me he sometimes uses Purr'll Gut Strings for his top string. >> Their prices look very cheap, but I don't know about the quality. >> Perhaps Martyn used them on the top, because they were very strong, >> or because he wants cheap relacements, for the string which breaks >> most. >> http://gourdbanjo.com/GBhtml/gut.html >> >> Regarding your remark, "you may also be aware of the view that the >> old trebles had a significantly higher tensile strength because they >> were made of a single well selected gut rather than two or three >> thinner guts twisted together which inevitably introduced an element >> of discontinuity within the string", >> that is why I mentioned a possible size difference between sheep >> today, and in the past. >> On the other hand, trebles today, are not made from two or three >> thinner guts, but thicker gut cut down into strips, and then twisted >> together. The gut now seems to be too thick to be used whole as a >> treble (I think I am correct in this, but please anyone say, if I >> have got it wrong). >> >> As to the Venice and the Pistoy, they are a twist of strings, >> themselves made of twisted sliced gut. They are not top strings, but >> for 4th down to 6th, at the smallest. >> Best regards >> Anthony >> >> >> >> >> Le 24 aout 07 =E0 18:05, Martyn Hodgson a ecrit : >> >>> >>> Many thanks for this Anthony. >>> >>> My main motive for asking was the increasing cost of gut >>> (especially fret gut oddly enough) and Universale's prices seemed >>> very competitive - hence if their quality was OK then I'd order >>> from them rather than MP or Sofracob or Kurschner or others. In >>> your email I'm not wholly clear if the Venice strings which you >>> mention as being v good are Aquila's or Universale's - grateful for >>> clarification. >>> >>> Regarding numbers of guts in a string, you may also be aware of >>> the view that the old trebles had a significantly higher tensile >>> strength because they were made of a single well selected gut >>> rather than two or three thinner guts twisted together which >>> inevitably introduced an element of discontinuity within the >>> string: I'm not aware that modern string makers have taken this >>> challenge up yet. >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> MH >>> >>> >>> >>> Anthony Hind wrote: >>> Dear Martyn >>> I don't know whether they are similar to Aquila Venice which >>> are a twine of two elements, and not a tress of three like Pistoys. >>> This according to Mimmo Perfuffo results in a more flexible string; >>> but I suppose flexibilty may not be everything. >>> >>> I found the Venice very good, particularly on the 4th course, where >>> Pistoys can't work. >>> According to MP it doesn't matter what material (ram, cow etc) that >>> the gut comes from. He claims to have made blind tests to prove >> this. >>> >>> On the other hand today we no longer find gut made from whole gut, >>> but strips. This might make a difference, perhaps. A friend of my >>> daughter has begun to keep a couple of "vintage" rare breed sheep, >>> and I notice how small and wild they look, more like miniature goats >>> (even the female has horns). I wonder whether sheep up to the 17th >>> century would not have been much smaller than today. I don't know >>> whether that means the intestines would have been smaller though. It >>> is just a thought. >>> >>> M.P. also tells me that he has now rediscovered much of the old >>> technology in his ongoing research, and could produce some >> strings as >>> strong as nylon; however, the process would be painstakingly long, >>> and I suppose they would be very expensive. >>> >>> I know that Dan Larson made a gimped string with tungsten that was >>> exceptionally true, and well liked by the lucky few who could try >> it. >>> This may not be historic, but I suppose it was cost that meant the >>> string remained in prototype form. >>> >>> I have the impression that if more lutists showed interest in gut >>> strings, we would see some very interesting developments in this >> area. >>> Regards >>> Anthony >>> >>> Le 24 aout 07 =E0 17:10, Martyn Hodgson a ecrit : >>> >>>> >>>> Has anybody experience of strings by this specialist Italian >>>> company offering 'Highest quality ram's and ox's gut strings for >>>> Renaissance, Baroque and Classical performance'? >>>> >>>> On their website they only show price lists for violin and gamba >>>> family instruments but offer 'Special ox's gut strings', High twist >>>> ram gut strings' Venice catlines' amongs others so I suppose culd >>>> provide suitable strings for lutes/guitars. Prices look good >>>> (especially fret gut). >>>> >>>> MH >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> x's twist', 'Venice Catlines' so I suppose >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------- >>>> For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good >>>> this month. >>>> -- >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------- >>> Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit >>> now. >>> -- >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > --------------------------------- > For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good > this month. > -- --------------------------------- Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now. --
