ie a single reentrant small theorbo - but there's still 'discontinuties' but now between the first and second MH
Roland Hayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What about a lowered 1st on what we would otherwise consider a large archlute? I seem to remember an archlute piece (Doni ms.) that does not use a chanterelle. To me this implies that the first course was problematic at times at least (a la french 11 c. pieces w/o chanterelle) and may have been replaced with a string an octave lower for both continuo and solo pieces. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 2:36 PM To: Jerzy Zak; Lute Net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo? Jurek, There are many problematic areas in regard to this matter. I believe that the most satisfactory solution is the second course in octaves since it seems sometimes to act as a "normal" low string and sometimes like it in the high octave. I've been playing around with this for the past month or so (on my "toy") and its quite musically worthwhile. (For the record, I've got my octave string in the upper position like a baroque guitar.) We're forgetting about Melli. Without the octave 2nd, there are whole pieces that disintegrate into annoying leaps. Take these examples from the 'Corrente detta la Strasinata per la Tiorba' from his Libro Quinto of 1620. The piece opens with a 16th-note run from the 1st course to the second. Fine for standard double re-entrant tuning. In bar 6, however, there is a trill (marked "T") above the dotted quarter on the open second course. The real problem comes with the fact that the trill also has a written-out termination. There are two 16ths: a '3' on the third course followed by a '0' on the second course which leads into a '1' in the next measure. How to make sense of this leap up a minor seventh smack in the middle of the concentrated gesture of rapid neighboring tones that make up a trill? The idea of the thing going something like "FEFEFEFEFE - D up a 7th - E down a 7th - F" in the space of about a second is ludicrous. And if Melli really wanted the D as part of the figure, why not just write an open 5th course? These sorts of trills happen all over. The figure at m.12 is problematic for standard re-entrant tuning as well. There is another four-note run in 16ths. In this case the run begins on an open second course and continues "down" to '3-2-0' on the third course. A leap up a minor seventh for no reason. Why not just write '5-3-2-0'? So far we might be able to argue that the piece, although labeled "per la Tiorba" has in fact been written for a lute or "theorbo" with only one or no re-entrant strings (then not a theorbo at all, of course). Measure 20 presents problems with this solution. Here there is a typical theorbo-ism - a 16th-note run divided between strings. The figure begins with a '3-1' on course 3, continues to a '1' on the 1st course, and moves on to a '2' on the 4th course before finishing with a '1' back on the 1st course. Such a figure would be pointless in lute tuning. Why not write those 1st course '1's' as '3's' on the 3rd course? Is single re-entrant tuning intended? There are problems with that, especially with what follows. The piece ends with a nice set of sequences using the 16th-note figure: m. 22 - '3-1-0' on course 1; '3' on course 2 m. 24 - '0' course 2; '3-2-0' course 3 m. 26 - '3-1-0' course 3; '2' course 4 m. 27 - '3-1-0' course 2; '3' course 3 m. 28 - '0' course 1; '3-2-0' course 2, incidentally ending with '0' on the 5th course. This happens in the short space of a few measures within ONE piece by Melli. Many more such examples abound. Clearly he thought of the second course as musically neighboring either the first course, third course, OR 4th course. I've found that having the octave string closest to the third course allows me to sometimes emphasize the lower octave and sometimes the higher one. (Having it closest to the 1st course made it difficult to bring out the low octave). Its been fun working with it. And of course it works nicely for Pittoni, too! Chris --- Jerzy Zak wrote: > Martyn, > > Indeed, the Liste archives give ample exemples the 'Pittoni case' is > an unsolved problem. Of course you know, the problem is not only on > page 43, but on almost every page of this interesting from several > points of view publication. I've played in concert one of the sonatas > and have a score of it, and now I've examined the whole volume again. > > There are several types of scalic passages. The ones before cadences > with lips of a seventh presents no problem at all, they are idiomatic > to any instrument of the time. But there are many others which are > broken around the second course. Some are explicable by common > practice of braking passages, say, like in transcriptions from one > medium to another - eg. JS Bach's own converting traverso flute part > to a flauto dolce part in one [or more] of his cantata, or many > adaptations of violin music to a traverso flute in the XVIIIth C. But > some others seems less hit home and it's either Pittoni's laziness to > get the 'proper' tone on the 3rd c. in high position or he had the > second in octave. In this case a matter of 'taste' > in evaluation is > inevitable... > > On the other hand Pittoni is a virtuoso and he knows well the very > 'tiorbistic' campanella devises and is using them readily, often high, > using the 1st, the 3rd and the 4th c. (but I spoted also campanella > with 2nd). Sometime the campanellas are just neighbouring with the > 'spoiled' scalic passages ...In fact almost any possible situation you > can finde on the 44 + 40 pages of quite dense music. > There is no point for citations, it would have to be a long paper > including a fair number of statistics - not for a mailing liste. > > I do not have an easy answer but I feel the second course in octave > would greatly _pacify_ most situations, at the same time not creating > a bright conflict in passing from the 1st to the 2nd c. As to the > sonic qualities of the so called 'toy theorbo', as I sad, it would be > a sort of 'big baroque lute' (a tone lower), nothing, really nothing > strange. > > Besides, I have some other observation on music of the time and > lutenists/theorbists position within, which may add life to the > concept. How much of such solo music survived? - you know, very > little. And why? Becouse virtuosos might play anything at hand, > including the violin music. Having an instrument in A with 2nd c. > with the high octave - well, a hipothetical instrument - one can play > straight from the violin part, it will just sound and octave lower, > without any transposition. The same of course may concern an archlute > players. > > Look for example at Maurizio Cazzati, ''Correnti, e balletti per > sonare nella spinetta, leuto, o tiorba; overo violino, e violone, col > secondo violino a beneplacito...'' opera XXX, Bologna 1662. Obviously, > only string parts in music notation exists. Italians on the list may > help, but for now I understand it as if Cazzati created his pieces for > 'spinetta, leuto, o tiorba', which now one can play them on bowed > strings, too. > > Worth to bring back at this point is the Harrah/Spencer MS with > Italian anon. archlute concerti notated in treble > (solos) or bass > (continuo) clef on one staff, or SL Weiss able to play 'violin > concerti straight from their notation' (Baron). > Anyway, the exchange > of repertoire seems to me almost axiomatic at the time. No need to > publish it in tablature. The less paper and transmission techniques, > the better. In the end they were improvising much more then we now. > > Perhaps then, there is no just ONE 'theorbo'? > Thanks for yours and Others attention to this longish epistle, Jurek > _______________ > > On 2008-02-04, at 10:51, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > Thank you Jerzy. > > > > I take it you're referring to the hypothesis that > the occasional > > leap in a scalic passage played on the 2nd and 3rd > course of a > > double reentrant theorbo (say, as found in Pittoni > 1669, eg last > > bar page 43 in da Chiesa volume) might possibly > suggest there could > > have been octave stringing on the 2nd course. > Pttoni writes for a > > theorbo in A. > > > > As you'll probably know, this was discussed some > time ago (see > > archives) and no concencus seemed to emerge as to > wether one just > > accepted this whenever it occurred or wether he > did indeed employ a > > high octave on the 2nd (or some other device? eg > putting a low > > octave on the 3rd!). You'll not be surprised that > I fall into the > > first camp and my and others views will be found > in the archives. > > But in short, as with similar 'discontinuities' in > much baroque > > guitar music, I believe that the 'Old Ones' > weren't over concerned > > about these occasional leaps (indeed, contemporary > music for other > > instruments, eg Corelli, sometimes employs wide > leaps as a > > compositional effect). The important thing for me > (and this is, of > > course, subjective) is that there is a clear sense > of the melodic > > and of the bass line and I find that with the > firmer thumb stroke > > on the bass line and/or allied with the continuo > Pittoni calls for > > (organo or clavicembalo) there is no real sense of > any strange > > harmonic inversion. > > > > The bar on page 43 also illustrates another > problem: if one accepts > > an octave on the 2nd, where does it all end? - > since here the > > scalic passage, both ascending and descending, > crosses all three > > top courses: there has to be a discontinuity > somewhere; wether it > > be between the 2nd and 3rd or 1st and 2nd. Note > also that at the > > beginning of this bar he completes the previous > ascending phrase on > > the same course (3rd at fret 7) and then plays the > same note on > > course 2 (fret1) to start the next short phrase. > This, I suggest, > > shows he made a concious choice to start the next > phrase at the > > lower octave - in short double reentrant. > > > > Personally, I rather like the octave leap at the > end of the > > bar.................... > > > > MH > > > > > > > > > > Jerzy Zak wrote: > > Martyn, > > > > All this is very persuasive, but what about the > story of a double re- > === message truncated == ________________________________________________________________________ ____________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. 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