This message did not seem to have been sent to the list, so I will =20 try again. I appologize, if they both do come through. AH
It seems to me that, in recent messages, several different questions =20= are being raised about the loading process and dyeing processes at =20 the same time. One of these can be answered fairly easily: Q Is the material used for loading strings metal filings, as Damian =20 has mentioned? - Well, I suppose it depends what you call metal filings, but I think =20= it would be better to call it a powder of some form of copper =20 (perhaps some sort of copper oxide). I don't think it is obtained by =20 using a file on a piece of copper. "Modern loaded Bass strings (...) can present different shades of =20 dark red, brown or blackish colour, but also light yellow - depending =20= on the oxides or sulfides employed. Also metal powders like metallic-=20 copper (which is what we use on our loaded strings because it is not =20 toxic) achieve the same goal: we still have ancient recipes =20 describing how to produce the finest copper powder (we tried them =20 quite successfully), like the one by Don Alessio Piemontese =91I =20 secreti...=92, printed in Venice in 1555: the resulting colour, too, =20 looks very much like what we see on iconographical sources." MP We may note that MP's recipe for loading is certainly not the only =20 way one that could achieve loading, and, if we admit that string =20 loading did indeed exist, there would have been a number of different =20= competing recipes, with varying results. Q Another question is not historic: What difference is there between =20 a dyeing and a loading process, as this would be defined today? Is =20 there any overlap in these two types of process that could lead from =20 one to the other, - Well, I made a search and I found it very difficult to understand =20 what I came up with, but it seems that metal oxides are mainly used =20 as some sort of fixing agent for dyes (mordants) in some modern dyes See here, for example: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5320647.html I am no chemist, so most of the document goes completely over my =20 head. I don't think the metals are the colouring agent, but somehow =20 help to fix the dye, but I could be quite wrong, and I don't know =20 whether they effect the density of the material they are applied to. However, this is the wrong question. It is irrelevant how scientists =20 would consider the two processes today, or how they would designate =20 them, perhaps never confusing the two. The valid question seems to me to be whether, around 1570, colouring =20 leathers, wool etc, with metal oxides would have been considered as =20 dyeing, or whether they would have been given a completely different =20 name, such as "loading". I found this site which helps me to find an answer which satisfies =20 me, but possibly not you. http://www.geocities.com/anne_liese_w/Dyeing/dyemordants.htm Here, I read, "Metals are among the earliest of dyes for textiles. Most commonly, =20 early people from all over the world discovered that certain soils =20 would impart color to cloth if the cloth were buried in it for some =20 duration. Extant examples of such a technique can be found in =20 textiles of the Swiss Lake Dwellers, approx. 3000 BC and modern use =20 of the practice can be found in Africa, where the natives treat the =20 cloth with a pattern of tannins and then bury it in iron-rich soil, =20 producing a black and tan design." Thus, as I understand it, for thousands of years the problem with =20 which the "dye trade" (don't take that too literally) must have been =20 confronted, was how to make these dyes more permanent, how to fix =20 them on wool, leather, etc. This fixing process would surely lead to =20 "loading" the material, but the aim was to make the "dye" or colour =20 fast, not to load the material. Loading would just have been a =20 secondary effect. "Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed for =20 =91loading=92 gut (see, for instance, Giovanventura Rossetti=92s recipes = =20 for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather in his 'Plichto de l=92arte de =20 tentori che insegna tenger pani, telle, banbasi et sede si per larthe =20= magiore come per la comune', Venezia, 1568). Some of these describe =20 how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or lithargyrum =20 (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood, hair, inks &c.: =20 indeed, only a short step away from gut." MP Thus this process most probably would have been strongly associated =20 with the dyeing trade. If the string trade was centred in an area of =20 Italy where sheep were at one time abundant, perhaps there were very =20 close links between these various trades (wool, leather-tanning, =20 dyeing, and also the gut string trade). I think this centre of the =20 string trade was also at a point from which trade routes spread-out. =20 It would not be surprising if other trades were assoicated with these =20= routes, but I admit that I don't know how close the relations might =20 have been between these different guilds. I am not suggesting that all dyeing of gut was loading, just that =20 playing around with dyeing processes could have lead to the discovery =20= of loading. Damian is right, I think in considering this socio-economic history =20 of the gut string trade and their relations with the other guilds, as =20= being of great importance to our understanding of gut technology. In the light of what I have said so far, when Mace mentions the =20 quality of the dark red Pistoys, this is not proof that such strings =20 were loaded; however, if they were loaded, should we expect Mace to =20 use this term rather than the term "dyed"? I don't think we should =20 expect that when modern texts continue to refer to loading of cloth =20 with oxides, as "dyeing" (see above). In relation to this general question of how string makers might have =20 come across the use of metal oxides in relation to leather, a search =20 with google also brought up the fact that at least some metal oxides =20 have been used in the tanning process of leather, in particular =20 chromium salts, but no doubt others have been used, in the tanning =20 process. "Chrome Tanning: A tanning process using salts of chromium to make =20 leathers that are especially supple and suitable for bags, garments, =20 etc. " It is possible that similar tanning processes were attempted with =20 gut. There is no direct relation to loading with a metal oxide, but =20 any experimentation, dyeing, and tanning, using metal salts, could =20 have made such a discovery more likely. Don't let us forget that "dyeing" with metal salts is not the only =20 way to load gut, and around 1650, a new way of loading gut, the demi-=20 fil=E9 was discovered. This is clearly mentioned in several texts =20 (Playford, Perrault), and we do have the Mest sample to prove it. =20 Thus we do know that some string makers must have been looking for =20 ways of loading strings. Incidentally, the way loaded strings behave, make me think of the =20 pendulum, rather than a spring. Some have suggested that Galileo's =20 study (around 1600) of the behaviour of the pendulum came from =20 experiments he made with his father weighting lute strings. No I am =20 not suggesting that Galileo discovered the loaded string, but perhaps =20= this sort of question was not all that new, just well formulated by =20 Galileo. Claude Perrault's description of the demi-fil=E9 loaded strings, seems =20= to be referring to its being similar to the pendulum-like swinging =20 motion of a bell. http://www.aquilacorde.com/im16.htm Again, no proof is implied in what I have just said, only that string-=20= makers clearly did not ignore such experimentation. Please do not consider that I think I have successfully answered =20 these questions. I have written down the questions raised, as I have =20 understood them, and I have given a number of remarks as replies, =20 which in no way are attempts to close the issue. There are other questions that have been raised, such as Jaroslaw's =20 general questions about whether we should not just get on with =20 playing music on the strings we have, rather than hunt for new-old =20 materials, I will try to respond with a few remarks, later. Anthony Le 6 juin 08 =E0 01:37, howard posner a =E9crit : > > On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > >> I don't think you are mistaken; however, that still would not >> involve a chemical change of the gut material itself. > > Does dyeing? The question, if I am again unmistaken, was whether a > process used for dyeing might incidentally increase the density/ > weight of a string. As far as I can see, adding anything to the > string's innards is going to increase its density, though the > increase may be negligible. Anyone who uses gut strings knows they > get denser from absorbing water when the humidity rises. > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
