Dear Lutists, I first joined this topic to contribute what I could to Mathias Rosel's understanding of the design of the 12c he was considering (may 30). I didn't think my comments would be so controversial, but I soon became aware that there were a number of serious historical errors being made, and a whole raft of assumptions about the manner in which contemporary lutes were strung that are entirely wrong.
I offer my own historical overview of what we actually do know, (june 4) which I propose as a better way of commencing research. I also propose that you discard all of your assumptions about string loading, roped strings of various types, half wound strings--because I believe they are warrantless and have no evidential basis. There were simply, strings in varying rates of torsion. If you or someone you know is using some imaginary reconstruct like those mentioned above and they work, then that is fine. You don't need any historical justification for the way you string your lute. But the fact that they work is not an a priori historical validation that they existed during the distant past. That would be like seeing all those fat men in red suits with fake white trimming around Christmastime and deciding you do believe in Santa Claus after all. DD It seems to me that several different questions are being raised about the loading process and dyeing processes at the same time. One of these can be answered fairly easily: Q Is the material used for loading strings metal filings, as Damian has mentioned? - Well, I suppose it depends what you call metal filings, but I think it would be better to call it a powder of some form of copper (perhaps some sort of copper oxide). I don't think it is obtained by using a file on a piece of copper. "Modern loaded Bass strings (...) can present different shades of dark red, brown or blackish colour, but also light yellow - depending on the oxides or sulfides employed. Also metal powders like metallic- copper (which is what we use on our loaded strings because it is not toxic) achieve the same goal: we still have ancient recipes describing how to produce the finest copper powder (we tried them quite successfully), like the one by Don Alessio Piemontese I secreti..., printed in Venice in 1555: the resulting colour, too, looks very much like what we see on iconographical sources." MP We may note that MP's recipe for loading is certainly not the only way one that could achieve loading, and, if we admit that string loading did indeed exist, there would have been a number of different competing recipes, with varying results. Q Another question is not historic: What difference is there between a dyeing and a loading process, as this would be defined today? Is there any overlap in these two types of process that could lead from one to the other, - Well, I made a search and I found it very difficult to understand what I came up with, but it seems that metal oxides are mainly used as some sort of fixing agent for dyes (mordants) in some modern dyes See here, for example: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5320647.html I am no chemist, so most of the document goes completely over my head. I don't think the metals are the colouring agent, but somehow help to fix the dye, but I could be quite wrong, and I don't know whether they effect the density of the material they are applied to. However, this is the wrong question. It is irrelevant how scientists would consider the two processes today, or how they would designate them, perhaps never confusing the two. The valid question seems to me to be whether, around 1570, colouring leathers, wool etc, with metal oxides would have been considered as dyeing, or whether they would have been given a completely different name, such as "loading". I found this site which helps me to find an answer which satisfies me, but possibly not you. http://www.geocities.com/anne_liese_w/Dyeing/dyemordants.htm Here, I read, "Metals are among the earliest of dyes for textiles. Most commonly, early people from all over the world discovered that certain soils would impart color to cloth if the cloth were buried in it for some duration. Extant examples of such a technique can be found in textiles of the Swiss Lake Dwellers, approx. 3000 BC and modern use of the practice can be found in Africa, where the natives treat the cloth with a pattern of tannins and then bury it in iron-rich soil, producing a black and tan design." Thus, as I understand it, for thousands of years the problem with which the "dye trade" (don't take that too literally) must have been confronted, was how to make these dyes more permanent, how to fix them on wool, leather, etc. This fixing process would surely lead to "loading" the material, but the aim was to make the "dye" or colour fast, not to load the material. Loading would just have been a secondary effect. "Several ancient recipes could have been easily employed for loading gut (see, for instance, Giovanventura Rossettis recipes for dyeing fabrics, silk and leather in his 'Plichto de larte de tentori che insegna tenger pani, telle, banbasi et sede si per larthe magiore come per la comune', Venezia, 1568). Some of these describe how to incorporate cinnabar (red mercury sulphide) or lithargyrum (yellow lead oxide) into wax, leather, silk, wood, hair, inks &c.: indeed, only a short step away from gut." MP Thus this process most probably would have been strongly associated with the dyeing trade. If the string trade was centred in an area of Italy where sheep were at one time abundant, perhaps there were very close links between these various trades (wool, leather-tanning, dyeing, and also the gut string trade). I think this centre of the string trade was also at a point from which trade routes spread-out. It would not be surprising if other trades were assoicated with these routes, but I admit that I don't know how close the relations might have been between these different guilds. I am not suggesting that all dyeing of gut was loading, just that playing around with dyeing processes could have lead to the discovery of loading. Damian is right, I think in considering this socio-economic history of the gut string trade and their relations with the other guilds, as being of great importance to our understanding of gut technology. In the light of what I have said so far, when Mace mentions the quality of the dark red Pistoys, this is not proof that such strings were loaded; however, if they were loaded, should we expect Mace to use this term rather than the term "dyed"? I don't think we should expect that when modern texts continue to refer to loading of cloth with oxides, as "dyeing" (see above). In relation to this general question of how string makers might have come across the use of metal oxides in relation to leather, a search with google also brought up the fact that at least some metal oxides have been used in the tanning process of leather, in particular chromium salts, but no doubt others have been used, in the tanning process. "Chrome Tanning: A tanning process using salts of chromium to make leathers that are especially supple and suitable for bags, garments, etc. " It is possible that similar tanning processes were attempted with gut. There is no direct relation to loading with a metal oxide, but any experimentation, dyeing, and tanning, using metal salts, could have made such a discovery more likely. Don't let us forget that "dyeing" with metal salts is not the only way to load gut, and around 1650, a new way of loading gut, the demi- filé was discovered. This is clearly mentioned in several texts (Playford, Perrault), and we do have the Mest sample to prove it. Thus we do know that some string makers must have been looking for ways of loading strings. Incidentally, the way loaded strings behave, make me think of the pendulum, rather than a spring. Some have suggested that Galileo's study (around 1600) of the behaviour of the pendulum came from experiments he made with his father weighting lute strings. No I am not suggesting that Galileo discovered the loaded string, but perhaps this sort of question was not all that new, just well formulated by Galileo. Claude Perrault's description of the demi-filé loaded strings, seems to be referring to its being similar to the pendulum-like swinging motion of a bell. http://www.aquilacorde.com/im16.htm Again, no proof is implied in what I have just said, only that string- makers clearly did not ignore such experimentation. Please do not consider that I think I have successfully answered these questions. I have written down the questions raised, as I have understood them, and I have given a number of remarks as replies, which in no way are attempts to close the issue. There are other questions that have been raised, such as Jaroslaw's general questions about whether we should not just get on with playing music on the strings we have, rather than hunt for new-old materials, I will try to respond with a few remarks, later. Anthony Le 6 juin 08 à 01:37, howard posner a écrit : > > On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: > >> I don't think you are mistaken; however, that still would >> not >> involve a chemical change of the gut material itself. > > Does dyeing? The question, if I am again unmistaken, was > whether a > process used for dyeing might incidentally increase the > density/ > weight of a string. As far as I can see, adding anything to > the > string's innards is going to increase its density, though > the > increase may be negligible. Anyone who uses gut strings > knows they > get denser from absorbing water when the humidity rises. > > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
