Dear Anthony,
I thought that lead is poisness, isn't it? Didn't they know about it? The
other basses are neither brown nor red. Maybe it's a matter of light, but
they really look like copper wounds. If really loading not dyeing was
involved maybe they had some local recepies giving in the end this color?
Regards
Jaroslaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Hind" <anthony.h...@noos.fr>
To: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>; "lute List"
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "alexander" <voka...@verizon.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:06 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
Dear Jaroslaw
Le 21 févr. 09 à 20:51, Jarosław Lipski a écrit :
Dear Anthony,
Nice to talk to you again.
I agree, there are several possibilities and some of them very probable.
Aesthetic/loaded? Maybe aesthetic, but why only one string? I don't
exclued loading however personaly I wouldn't use a plain gut in between
two loaded strings. This not a transition like a Venice string. Besides
Venice is a good transition between treble and bass, but not in the
middle of basses!
That was what I was thinking, but Alexnder points out that "it is the
first string to go OFF the neck, it is almost twice as long as the
six courses ON, so to produce an octave lower then the 4th string, it
has to be about the same diameter as the 4th."
I agree that the plain gut would perhaps be brighter than the
adjacent loaded strings, but a move from the "off the neck" quality
would perhaps bring a tonal break anyway. Still I do tend to agree
with you.
Demifile? I agree - too early. Well, at least as far as our knoledge is
correct.
It would also bring a tonal break, as my Gimped string in between the
Venice and the loaded basses showed me.
Special loaded? We know nothing about white loading.
However, Mimmo has told me of one possibility, lead carbonate is a
white and very dense insoluble powder, which was largely employed in
the past under the name Biacca, or Basic lead carbonate. It was the
only white insoluble pigment of the past. The density is arround 7,0.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonato_di_piombo
Another problem for the pure gut hypothesis, according to Mimmo, is
that sulfur treatment, which make strings whiter, seems not to have
been in use on gut strings, before mid 17th c. Such thickness of gut
string, Mimmo tells me should be brownish. So perhaps lead carbonate
is the answer.
Place maker? Possible, however people that like this sort of things
usualy make more than one - like the dots on the neck's side.
Plain thicker gut? Could be, although this wouldn't be my choice as
mentioned before.
Artistic implication? This one I rather exclude. The allegory is made by
juxtaposing some objects, however it doesn't mean they wouldn't be
painted faithfully. For example La Hyre juxtaposed the singing bird
sitting on the back of the chair symbolising the "free music" and the
theorbo player as a
(probably a rossignol)
symbol of the "learned music". However both are painted faithfuly I
believe. In general La Hyre was very acurate in portrait-painting so it
would be rather strange if he made an exception and didn't pay any
attention to the details this time.
Yes, when I looked in bigger magnification, I was also struck by the
details, as also pointed out by Dana.
So my guess is, it could be some kind of a temporary substitute.
That or possibly lead carbonate because as Mimmo seems to think,
plain gut would possibly not have been white.
Thank you, Jaroslaw, for this very interesting example.
Regards
Anthony
Regards
Jaroslaw
----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" <anthony.h...@noos.fr>
To: "Jarosław Lipski" <jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>; "lute List"
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 4:49 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
It's good to read you again, Jarosław, and with such an
interesting example.
I would not presume to give any answers, just add a question or two.
It would be good to have Mimmo's specialist opinion, on this.
Aesthetic/loaded?
I note that MP does give two examples contrasting aesthetic
use of string colour,
with something more systematic that he thinks could be consistent
with loading:
aesthetic (Ludovico Lana 1597-1646):
http://www.aquilacorde.com/valeriani1.JPG
red basses: they suggest a loading treatment
http://www.aquilacorde.com/b.jpg
but your example is sort of in between, interpretable either way?
unless there is a technical reason (string length) which would
preclude loading?
Demi-filé?
However, if the date is 1649, it seems unlikely that the white
string could have been "silver wound" demi-filé, because of the early
date.
Mimmo's example is from 1770:
Zophany, 1770 ca. The Sharp family: see the white basses
http://www.aquilacorde.com/zophany.jpg
If for a specific purpose, why substitute for 7c and not also for 6c?
I think your suggestion that
2/ La Hyre painted what he saw at that given moment - the white 7th
string was put on after the original proper (loaded?) string had
broken
3/ 7th string was made of some kind of substitute which the player
consciously preferred to have on that course.
are quite plausible (both possibilities); but if (3) and 7c was a
preferred substitute, why was it not also preferred for 6c, which
remains red (loaded?), unless 7c were a special type of loaded (but I
might be missing something here about the reentrant tuning).
Indeed, on my new 11c lute, Stephen Gottlieb did not put the full
complement of loaded basses (from 6 to 11), instead he stopped at 8c,
and substituted for the smaller basses : a Gimped on 7c and a pure
Venice on 6c (probably just because he already had them), but also
because he said they would be more frequently stopped down.
Place marker?
The gimped string, while good, did break the smooth transition of the
voices, but proved quite useful while I was learning to use the
basses, as a sort of place marker: I could both see and hear where I
was.
Although, I would not actually like to suggest a similar "place
marker role" for the white string in this painting.
I agree it is most likely a temporary substitute (as mine in fact
were also), just possibly there for its preferred quality, if it was
a special loaded string.
Loaded?
Could this white string have been a loaded one?
Notice, that my Venice 6c was yellowish, but it looks quite white in
contrast to the redder basses, and this is a painting, so the
difference could be exaggerated:
http://tinyurl.com/burdjo
Could the 7c of this painting be the canary-yellow lead oxide MP
mentions, if it was there for a specific purpose (Mimmo doesn't
mention any white coloured loading)? I suppose it is more likely to
be plain gut, but that is also usually yellowish, unless bleached.
Some artistic implication?
Although, the instrument could perhaps be an artist's prop, for
which the strings could have been chosen for some particlular
artistic effect, somehow part of its allegoric message. The white
string runs through the heart of the rose. The index (trigger finger)
is on this. If so, I have no idea what the implication for the artist
might be.
However, a painting with a primary allegorical message, could be a
little less safe in terms of the data it gives us for an actual
playing set-up, than say, the protrait of a particular lutenist (even
if this might also have some allegorical undertones).
Just my uninformed musings
regards
Anthony
[1]http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/god4/ho_50.189.htm# or
[2]http://tinyurl.com/conmfc . I wouldn't like however focus on
toyness theme, which is very interesting btw, in spite we don't
possess
enough data to solve it now. What drew my attention when I saw it
however (which is unfortunately not so visible on reproductions)
were
some small details. The whole painting is quite big 105.7 x 144.1 cm
with fast colors and sharp contours so there can't be any ambiguity
about it. Apart from slightly strange, flat bottom end, what makes
one
wonder is the stringing. The string color is very consistent from
the
bridge to the peg box (even the loose ends inside the peg box are of
the same color so it can't be accidental). When you enter the hall
and
see the picture you have an impression that the theorbo is strung
with
copper wounds. Well, I am not suggesting it really was, but the tone
color of the bass strings resembles copper quite a lot. There is
another surprise: strings 1-5 look like ordinary gut, then 6th is
copper-like, 7th (here, here) almost white (!) resembling silver
wound,
and 8-13 again copper color. Okay, so let's assume they were loaded,
but then why the player wasn't consistent in the choice of basses?
If
they weren't wound or loaded so what are the other possibilities?
Dyed?
Maybe, but another interesting feature of the strings is the way
they
look at the bridge - the knots are tight (unusual for thick gut) so
they had to be pretty elastic (low tension?).
Then, obviously the painting process comes to mind which very often
played the role of photography. La Hyre was known in Paris as a
painter
of a great number of portraits especially those of the principal
dignitaries of the municipality and was called by Richelieu to the
Palais Royal. In short we can rely on his paintings as a good source
of
information.
So we are probably left with 3 possibilities:
1/ basses were dyed and the player picked 7th course from different
manufacture
2/ La Hyre painted what he saw at that given moment - the white 7th
string was put on after the original proper (loaded?) string had
broken
3/ 7th string was made of some kind of substitute which the player
consciously preferred to have on that course.
Actually, 1 and 2 are most probable IMHO, however inconsistencies in
string coloration can be found on paintings of some other masters as
well.
Any other ideas?
Best
Jaroslaw
--
References
1. http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/god4/ho_50.189.htm
2. http://tinyurl.com/conmfc
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