Hello Alexander
As a gut string user, and ready to try silk if it was easilly
available, I am not actually advocating for lutenists and other
musicians to go over to synthetic strings (or natural spider strings).
Indeed, I would hope improvements in research on historic "natural"
strings might encourage more lutenists to stay with gut or silk. I must
make that clear, and I suppose I should do so whenever discussing a
synthetic string.
%
On the other hand, knowing that many lutenists will never use "natural"
strings, and that a number only use "natural" strings for recording, I
wonder whether it is not better that these synthetics strings, be as
close as possible in behaviour to what we believe were the qualities of
historic strings (but also seeing some dangers in such research).
Gut strings can be twisted and treated with chemicals to become more
flexible, and suitable for Meanes, but synthetic gut can't be (or at
least I don't think it can), flexiblity must be part of the polymer
structure (due to the ingredients or to the extruding). I was simply
thinking that this could possibly be achieved by simulating the
spider's extrusion technique (with the extrudor) rather than just
varying the ingedients. This might actually result in a synthetic
string closer to the flexible gut Meanes.
However, for me this is still science fiction, I just wondered whether
according to you it was a possibility, not at all advocating anything,
and certainly not advocating genetic modification.
Sorry not to have been more clear, I was not thinking about using
natural spider silk, which has never to my knowledge been a historic
ingredient for strings, just improving the structure of synthetic
Meanes.
%
I realize improvements in synthetics may make it too easy for those who
haven't already left natural strings. I have mixed feelings about that.
Regards
Anthony
__________________________________________________________________
De : alexander <voka...@verizon.net>
A : Anthony Hind <agno3ph...@yahoo.com>
Cc : "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Envoye le : Vendredi 9 mars 2012 16h31
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective
blind test?)
Greetings, Anthony.
Well, you, of all people, quite certainly can grasp the problems
involved here.
Du Pont regularly announces, with great pomp, their new creation of an
absolutely perfect spider silk imitation, to only, without any pomp at
all, quietly retreat until the next announcement. The last such
announcement was just the last year. Now there is hardly any mentioning
of it, except for the christian doomsday sites, as in this last
instance Du Pont was using genetically pickled goats, to produce silk
instead of, the more common, milk.
For us, the string connoisseurs, having a goat with an exchangeable
variable nipple extruder tips for the most common lute string sizes,
and a chance, on feeding the animal some copper powder, to have our own
perfectly loaded basses, - would be perfect, don't you say?
While spider silk sounds extremely attractive, particularly to the
military killer gadget junkies, in fact to a lutanist, please
understand this, it is a disappointing distraction. There is a plethora
of natural materials (to name but hemp and linen fibers, and,
especially - discarded fingernail shavings) which, if arranged on the
same, not very microscopic level, as spiders' signal line (the most
closely befitting to be a musical string, not like a war monkeys
salivatizing drag line - just google "drag line kevlar"), can produce a
musical string with infinitely adjustable qualities, to match gut or
what not. Only if the same amount of time, research and funding is
applied. No need for genetically adjusted goats.
For crying out loud, they made bulletproof materials out of both - hemp
and linen, does this tell you what is possible? I have made, in a
conventional manner, just by twisting and glueing, both linen and hemp
gamba strings, which not only were more durable then gut or silk, but
sounded on par. Now imagine if these fibers plus some keratin and
collagen would be liquified and ran through the microfluidics extruder
mimicking the spider line arrangement - there is your perfect string.
I'm sure they will get to this as soon as they kill off enough people
to finally notice all the lute players there. If we really want THEM to
notice US...
alexander r.
On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 14:00:24 +0000 (GMT)
Anthony Hind <[1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Alexander, Thanks for these links. I would agree that the detailed
mechanics of spider's silk is beyond most of us on this list (beginning
with myself), but I am wondering whether the reported elasticity of
some spider's web silk, might make it better for creating Meanes and
bass strings, as opposed to stiffer? spider and silk worm cocoon silk
(perhaps better for trebles, but just letting my imagination run riot,
I admit).
> %
> As I understand it, the big problem would be the ammount of webs or
> cocoons needed. I read that in 1709, a Frenchman, Bon de
Saint-Hilaire, made
> silk material with it, but it needed 1.3 million
> spider cocoons to produce one kilogram of silk.
> [2]http://ednieuw.home.xs4all.nl/Spiders/InfoNed/webthread.html
> %
> It seems that the "nano" complexity of the micro spatial arrangements
of the filaments is beginning to be understood: "Inspired by spider
silk, a naturally occurring strong and stretchy
> substance, MIT researchers have now devised a way to produce a
material
> that begins to mimic this combination of desirable properties."
> [3]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070119115103.htm(and
also "MIT researchers Sinan Keten and Markus J. Buehler have developed
and applied a framework for predicting the nanostructure of spider silk
using atomistic principles."
> [4]http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid880.php)
> %
> That might seem to be the way to go (synthesizing it), rather than
attempting to harvest spider silk, even by genetic mutation. However, I
imagine we might be a long way off actually being able to use this
material for music strings. That is probably the last interest of these
MIT searchers.
> %
> But "Spun fibres, natural and man-made, rely on the extrusion process
to facilitate molecular orientation and bonding."
> [5]http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v5/n11/full/nmat1762.html
> Thus could extrusion polymer flow theory(rheology) perhaps be used to
clarify our understanding of natural silk spinning, and that in turn be
translatable to models for extruding artificial silk, and even musical
string production (as this article, above, which I haven't been able to
read fully, seems to suggest).
> $
> I am very very dimly grasping what this might involve, and suppose it
is all rather a long way off?
> and imagine there is still a call for natural silk strings, and hope
you will keep us informed about your research in this area.
> Regards
> Anthony
> (appologies for any confusion, but as you say this complex topic is
rather beyond me)
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> De : alexander <[6]voka...@verizon.net>
> A : Ron Andrico <[7]praelu...@hotmail.com>
> Cc : [8]agno3ph...@yahoo.com; [9]t...@heartistrymusic.com;
[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Envoye le : Mercredi 7 mars 2012 15h54
> Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread
(objective blind test?)
>
> I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics
> of the subject on this list, which are rather complex. It matters to
say that the spider silk research is an immensely long and difficult
endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The
> cultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly
surprises the heck out of itself.
> It is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be
it moths or spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of
pretty much the same elements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar
to our hair and fingernails, just in somewhat different proportions and
mixtures, and a glue holding filaments together, in case of moths and
spiders - sericin.
> The sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its'
composition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments,
supported by the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here
and there, both on a micro and macro level. and this is where the
enormous amount of research goes on. TO make a useful musical strings,
this spacial arrangement needs to be overcome and some new one created,
which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness the spider just put
> into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, and the
fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives
the one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and
then respect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that
follow. But as far as the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly
because of the necessary straightening of the tiny filaments to arrange
them laterally into the string. This destroys the fancy spider's
footwork.
> Curiously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely
preserve the latices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are
too strong and too fancy to be destroyed by the processing and
stretching. You see, the gut is never taken apart into tiny filaments,
as silk is. This gives gut strings all the qualities we all love and
enjoy.
> TO see the following links, remove spaces in http.
> h t t
> p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf
> h t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va
> h t t
p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider-silk-textile-
on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/
>
>
> alexander r.
>
>
> On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 +0000
> Ron Andrico <[11]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost
> > authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex
Rakov.
> > While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff,
I'm
> > sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex?
> > RA
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References
1. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
2. http://ednieuw.home.xs4all.nl/Spiders/InfoNed/webthread.html
3. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070119115103.htm
4. http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid880.php
5. http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v5/n11/full/nmat1762.html
6. mailto:voka...@verizon.net
7. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
8. mailto:agno3ph...@yahoo.com
9. mailto:t...@heartistrymusic.com
10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
11. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
