You draw some interesting parallels (especially regarding the advent of HIP at the same time churches were actively abandoning any efforts at preservation of their own ancient arts), Chris, and the discussion in whole is at least interesting...even if stretching the core concept of the list just a wee bit. At least we're not discussing schooling Clupeidae in this particular thread!
Eugene -----Original Message----- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Wilke Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 8:56 AM To: Edward Mast; Braig, Eugene Cc: howardpos...@ca.rr.com; do...@tiscali.it; Lute Dmth (lute@cs.dartmouth.edu) Subject: [LUTE] Re: (Not) OT: Music in church Hi Eugene, I must respectfully disagree that the subject is off topic. While not specifically lute related, the discussion revolves around the Church's (in America at least) rejection of a living tradition of early music. As you say, the decline in church attendance is due to many other cultural factors and of course, music was not the sole cause. However, the rejection of an entire ancient tradition was surely symptomatic of larger attitudes within the Church regarding the role of art. What social factors made those in charge conclude that the old aesthetic traditions were totally irrelevant and appropriate for wholesale ejection c.1965? Ironically, we see the rise of HIP as a legitimate movement just as the Church was abandoning the living tradition of it's own (admittedly non-HIP) early music. Many of our post-war early music "heros" were just starting their concert work in ernest at this time and finding enough public interest to sustain specialized performing careers dedicated solely to old music. A fairly sizable portion of this repertoire consisted of Catholic music or music that the general public would perceive as having "that ancient church sound." Church officials apparently came to the conclusion that, although people where willing to PAY to hear this music performed well, they found it's use in the original context off-putting. Imagine how differently the development of our own field be if the Church had joined forces with the budding HIP movement and embraced sacred musical heritage. What if they had financially supported someone like Gustav Leonhardt and his many students to turn their efforts towards a HIP overhaul of church music both within and outside of services? In spite of these efforts to stamp out the old ways, the sound of ancient repertoire is none the less part of pop culture consciousness. To this day, whenever an interior shot of a church is featured in a movie, the soundtrack will feature a a few seconds of chant. This immediately tells the viewer that something Seriously Grave and Important (usually involving some sort of epic battle between Good and Evil) will follow. How different would those scenes be with pseudo-folk guitar (capo 3) strumming? Chris --- On Wed, 3/14/12, Braig, Eugene <brai...@osu.edu> wrote: From: Braig, Eugene <brai...@osu.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Music in church To: "Edward Mast" <nedma...@aol.com>, "Christopher Wilke" <chriswi...@yahoo.com> Cc: "howardpos...@ca.rr.com" <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>, "do...@tiscali.it" <do...@tiscali.it>, "Lute Dmth (lute@cs.dartmouth.edu)" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 1:27 PM My reason for staying away from church "in droves" ever since coming of an age that I could decide to do so is quite independent of the presence or absence of schlocky music (that only shallowly apes popular music at its best). I think there is a real reason for religion to struggle to appear relevant in the modern era, but music probably isn't enough to make it so. Societal values change and always have. This seems to have wandered so far from the interests of lute that I might encourage any replies to my aside be made off list. Best, Eugene -----Original Message----- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Edward Mast Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 10:59 AM To: Christopher Wilke Cc: [3]howardpos...@ca.rr.com; [4]do...@tiscali.it; [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers A very sad state of affairs, Chris. I never understood the church's - catholic, protestant, or otherwise - desire to revise its music programs to reflect what is going on musically in society; to appear to be more "relevant". If you remove the unique and beautiful musical aspects of the church service and make it more like what's going on everywhere outside the church, don't you also remove the motivation for congregants to come and experience something they don't find outside the church? If, as you say, young people have stayed away in droves, it would seem so. On Mar 14, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Christopher Wilke wrote: Ned > Donatella, > In America the change in music came much earlier, in many places > preceding the Second Vatican Council. The Catholic Church in America > took great pride in dissociating itself from "old world ways" by > rejecting chant and polyphony. In its place, they replaced these > traditions with very poor pseudo-folk music. I suppose this was done in > order to provide "hip" music to attract young people, under the > assumption that no one under 30 can stand still long enough to > appreciate beauty. Unfortunately, the resultant music was some hideous > hybrid that succeeded in being neither appropriately sacred nor in any > way interesting to young people. At any rate, young people stayed away > in droves, largely because of this smaltzy stuff. Still, these very > same wannabe hippy songs - now approaching 50 years old - and the > stated need to use them to attract young people are repeated ad > nauseum. > One of the great unwritten-about artistic travesties of the 20th > century is the fact that this entire repertoire, which replaced a > still-living century's old tradition, was not called for by any Church > decree, but was largely engineered by the publishing company Oregan > Catholic Press. If you go to practically any church in the country you > will find the same poor quality songs from the 1960's and 1970's in the > hymnals. This is not due to regulation, but rather a publishing deal. > Chris > Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. > Music Faculty > Nazareth College, Rochester, NY > State University of New York at Geneseo > Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer > www.christopherwilke.com > --- On Wed, 3/14/12, [6]do...@tiscali.it <[7]do...@tiscali.it> wrote: > > From: [8]do...@tiscali.it <[9]do...@tiscali.it> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers > To: [10]howardpos...@ca.rr.com > Cc: [11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 3:49 AM > > I googled, in Italian, and this came out [1][12]http://www.giovaninsede. > it/animazione-liturgica.php , there are no notes as music is not > thaught in the same way as abroad, so average people can sometimes read > chords ( sigh) and that is. You can get an idea. I used to go to Mass > as a child, and songs which were sung were possibly ancient and > complex, often in Latin, then when the previous Pope came, he > destroyed that part, I guess to make audience ( sad to say, but that > is), so that songs became the poorest, musically speaking, you can > imagine, accompanied by guitar, organ was heard now and then. It was > part of a "renovation" of which I can give an example: in the village > where I go on holiday , there is a Chapel with a Renaissance painting. > It needed restoring, but it was visible. Well , it was covered with a > representation of a black Madonna ( I can't think of the proper name > right now) which is not even of any artistic value. > To me listening to > the Mass became a real suffering, this is not the main reason why I > quit, but I did. > Lute and theorbo are allowed, I have been asked > several times to play a piece during the mass ( but I have not done it > up to now) > Donatella > ----Messaggio originale---- > Da: > [2][13]howardpos...@ca.rr.com > Data: 14/03/2012 1.06 > A: "Lute Net"<lute@cs. > dartmouth.edu> > Ogg: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers > On Mar > 13, 2012, at 4:01 PM, Tony wrote: >> The Church's doctrine on > liturgical music can be summarized in seven >> points .... > Doubtless > there are listers who know more about this than I do, but this list > seems like a compilation of things that have been said on the subject > over the centuries, rather than functioning doctrine. A lot of it is > pre-Vatican II. The one about guitars, for example, is obviously forty > or fifty years years out of date. Try googling: catholic mass guitar > (no quotes). Apparently the current pope Benedict doesn't like > guitars. > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > E' nata indoona: chiama, videochiama e messaggia Gratis. Scarica > indoona per iPhone, Android e PC: [4][15]http://www.indoona.com/ > > -- > > References > > 1. [16]http://www.giovaninsede/ > 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=[17]howardpos...@ca.rr.com > 3. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 4. [19]http://www.indoona.com/ > -- References 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com 4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it 5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it 7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it 8. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it 9. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=do...@tiscali.it 10. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com 11. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://www.giovaninsede/ 13. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com 14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 15. http://www.indoona.com/ 16. http://www.giovaninsede/ 17. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. http://www.indoona.com/
