Dear Ron, Hmmm, just seen that my mail included a bit that I wanted to discard and did not finish - "This may sound cynical, but TV"
That we both feel that our world-views are underrepresented, is somewhat amusing and in the end on the grand scale of things EM anyway plays so small a role in the 21st century culture that it is not really worth bickering about :) All the best Mark On Mar 16, 2012, at 12:43 AM, Mark Wheeler wrote: > I actually feel quite the opposite, that polyphonic religious music is over > emphasized in our view of 16th century music. Whole secular repertoires such > as the Villotta have been ignored and also misrepresented, largely because > they do not fit into the western classical music metanarrative. > > Even as early as the first musical prints of Petrucci and Antico it was > actually secular songs that outsold Latin Church Music. The church music was > maybe viewed as more prestigious, in thatyou could get some rich guy to cough > up some money to subsidize it. But what people were actually performing and > listening to was what our good old friend Taruskin describes as "humble > vernacular songs", almost certainly including the guy who got his name on the > front of the motets edition. This may sound cynical, but TV > > I am sure that if you added up all the concerts of renaissance church music > and those of renaissance secular music in all major early music festivals > last year, you would find that the religious is not so badly represented > after all. > > Also the christian worldview is one that is familiar to most western > Europeans today, both to those who believe in it or not. But the number of > thinkers in the renaissance that diverged from the orthodox christian > worldview, even to the region of atheism are not so well known. > > All the best > Mark > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 15, 2012, at 11:50 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: > >> No problem with the good music, which is obviously up to your usual standard >> of playing. I do feel, as Monica pointed out earlier, that today we seem to >> have a collective need to discount the role of the sacred music context of >> the 16th century by projecting our modern sensibilities backward in time. >> Why? Why not simply accept that religion played a significant and daily >> role in nearly everyone's life at the time? (That is, of course in the >> European context.) >> >> This is a difficult thing to prove, but I am nearly certain that ANY >> musician of the age and at the time was first trained to sing utilitarian >> sacred music. If he showed promise, he was given the opportunity to develop >> skill on an instrument as a useful addition to the task of singing for daily >> mass and devotionals. In fact, given the surviving biographical information >> on most known composers and noteworthy musicians from the time, it would be >> very difficult to disprove this premise. >> >> That is not to say that we have to judge the importance or quality of every >> simple dance tune against polyphonic masses and motets from the time. It is >> simply good interpretive practice to attempt to grasp the context of music >> from a time and place. Musicians of the 16th century lived at a time when >> the sacred and the secular were better integrated. Why deny this? It's not >> as though we have to duplicate every aspect of 16th century life in order to >> play the music. I, for one, can do without the body lice, lack of >> sanitation, rampant disease and absence of opportunity for upward mobility. >> That doesn't mean I deny those conditions existed. >> >> RA >> >>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:17:21 +0100 >>> To: praelu...@hotmail.com >>> CC: magg...@sonic.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> From: l...@pantagruel.de >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for church attendance >>> >>> I actually often get the feeling that the secular elements of renaissance >>> culture are rather underplayed in EM today. And so to get back to a more >>> Apollyon muse here is a bit of Holborne and Rabelais's Abbey of Thelema. >>> >>> http://youtu.be/tteepyzRPrE >>> >>> All the best >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 15, 2012, at 1:31 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: >>> >>>> Just an additional point. If you are wondering what this topic has to >>>> do with the focus of this discussion list, it has everything to do with >>>> the lute. It's a difficult proposition but imagine what lute music >>>> from the 16th century would sound like if it originated from a >>>> completely secular, even atheistic context. >>>> RA >>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:22:47 +0000 >>>>> To: magg...@sonic.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>> From: praelu...@hotmail.com >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for church attendance >>>>> >>>>> Very good point by you, Gary. The Church, for all its faults, was and >>>>> is a gathering place, and music was and is a powerful influence that >>>>> can be used to enhance religious experience. Today, we don't seem to >>>>> like situations that require actual 'face time' and it's so much >>>> easier >>>>> to communicate via the internet. I personally avoid Facebook (which I >>>>> call MyFace, since no one seems to give a hoot about what anyone else >>>>> has to say) with its utter lack of the observable indicators and >>>>> authentic results of real human interaction. But Donna says, rightly >>>>> so, we must be visible there. >>>>> In my opinion, sharing a video or sound clip on Facebook is not the >>>>> same thing as experiencing the collective focus of a gathering of >>>>> people moved to worship by the power of a Mass by Josquin or Byrd. >>>>> RA >>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 04:19:43 -0700 >>>>>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>>> From: magg...@sonic.net >>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers >>>>>> >>>>>> Obviously you were not the demographic they were looking for, Ed. I >>>>> think >>>>>> what happened was a move away from a contemplative approach to >>>>> religiousity >>>>>> to a social/interactive approach. Maybe we could trace the origins >>>> of >>>>>> "Facebook" to the abandoning of the Latin Mass. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gary >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Edward Martin" <e...@gamutstrings.com> >>>>>> To: <do...@tiscali.it>; <chriswi...@yahoo.com>; >>>>> <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> >>>>>> Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:36 AM >>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Interesting concept. Yes, many churches have abandoned their old >>>>>>> beautiful music, in favor of this guitar strumming, poorly >>>>> composed, >>>>>>> boring music. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This trend of abandoning art music, in favor of mediocrity with >>>> the >>>>>>> idea that it appeals to the masses, keeps me away. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> At 07:37 AM 3/14/2012, do...@tiscali.it wrote: >>>>>>>> Chris, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> the concept is so well expressed.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Donatella >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----Messaggio >>>>>>>> originale---- >>>>>>>> Da: chriswi...@yahoo.com >>>>>>>> Data: 14/03/2012 13.29 >>>>>>>> A: >>>>>>>> <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>, "do...@tiscali.it"<do...@tiscali.it> >>>>>>>> Cc: >>>>>>>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>>>>>>> Ogg: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Donatella, >>>>>>>> In America the change in music came much earlier, in >>>>>>>> many places >>>>>>>> preceding the Second Vatican Council. The Catholic >>>>>>>> Church in America >>>>>>>> took great pride in dissociating itself from "old >>>>>>>> world ways" by >>>>>>>> rejecting chant and polyphony. In its place, they >>>>>>>> replaced these >>>>>>>> traditions with very poor pseudo-folk music. I >>>>>>>> suppose this was done in >>>>>>>> order to provide "hip" music to attract >>>>>>>> young people, under the >>>>>>>> assumption that no one under 30 can stand >>>>>>>> still long enough to >>>>>>>> appreciate beauty. Unfortunately, the resultant >>>>>>>> music was some hideous >>>>>>>> hybrid that succeeded in being neither >>>>>>>> appropriately sacred nor in any >>>>>>>> way interesting to young people. At >>>>>>>> any rate, young people stayed away >>>>>>>> in droves, largely because of >>>>>>>> this smaltzy stuff. Still, these very >>>>>>>> same wannabe hippy songs - now >>>>>>>> approaching 50 years old - and the >>>>>>>> stated need to use them to >>>>>>>> attract young people are repeated ad >>>>>>>> nauseum. >>>>>>>> One of the >>>>>>>> great unwritten-about artistic travesties of the 20th >>>>>>>> century is the >>>>>>>> fact that this entire repertoire, which replaced a >>>>>>>> still-living >>>>>>>> century's old tradition, was not called for by any Church >>>>>>>> decree, >>>>>>>> but was largely engineered by the publishing company Oregan >>>>>>>> Catholic >>>>>>>> Press. If you go to practically any church in the country you >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> find the same poor quality songs from the 1960's and 1970's in >>>> the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hymnals. This is not due to regulation, but rather a publishing >>>>> deal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Chris >>>>>>>> Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. >>>>>>>> Music Faculty >>>>>>>> Nazareth >>>>>>>> College, Rochester, NY >>>>>>>> State University of New York at Geneseo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer >>>>>>>> www.christopherwilke.com >>>>>>>> --- On >>>>>>>> Wed, 3/14/12, do...@tiscali.it <do...@tiscali.it> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>> do...@tiscali.it <do...@tiscali.it> >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules >>>>>>>> for jazz performers >>>>>>>> To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com >>>>>>>> Cc: lute@cs. >>>>>>>> dartmouth.edu >>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 3:49 AM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> googled, in Italian, and this came out >>>> [1]http://www.giovaninsede. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it/animazione-liturgica.php , there are no notes as music is not >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> thaught in the same way as abroad, so average people can >>>> sometimes >>>>> read >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> chords ( sigh) and that is. You can get an idea. I used to go to >>>>>>>> Mass >>>>>>>> as a child, and songs which were sung were possibly ancient and >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> complex, often in Latin, then when the previous Pope came, he >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> destroyed that part, I guess to make audience ( sad to say, but >>>>> that >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> is), so that songs became the poorest, musically speaking, you >>>> can >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> imagine, accompanied by guitar, organ was heard now and then. It >>>>> was >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> part of a "renovation" of which I can give an example: in the >>>>> village >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> where I go on holiday , there is a Chapel with a Renaissance >>>>>>>> painting. >>>>>>>> It needed restoring, but it was visible. Well , it was >>>>>>>> covered with a >>>>>>>> representation of a black Madonna ( I can't think of >>>>>>>> the proper name >>>>>>>> right now) which is not even of any artistic value. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To me listening to >>>>>>>> the Mass became a real suffering, this is not >>>>>>>> the main reason why I >>>>>>>> quit, but I did. >>>>>>>> Lute and theorbo are >>>>>>>> allowed, I have been asked >>>>>>>> several times to play a piece during the >>>>>>>> mass ( but I have not done it >>>>>>>> up to now) >>>>>>>> Donatella >>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>> Messaggio originale---- >>>>>>>> Da: >>>>>>>> [2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com >>>>>>>> Data: >>>>>>>> 14/03/2012 1.06 >>>>>>>> A: "Lute Net"<lute@cs. >>>>>>>> dartmouth.edu> >>>>>>>> Ogg: >>>>>>>> [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers >>>>>>>> On Mar >>>>>>>> 13, 2012, at 4: >>>>>>>> 01 PM, Tony wrote: >>>>>>>>> The Church's doctrine on >>>>>>>> liturgical music >>>>>>>> can be summarized in seven >>>>>>>>> points .... >>>>>>>> Doubtless >>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>> listers who know more about this than I do, but this list >>>>>>>> seems like >>>>>>>> a compilation of things that have been said on the subject >>>>>>>> over the >>>>>>>> centuries, rather than functioning doctrine. A lot of it is >>>>>>>> pre- >>>>>>>> Vatican II. The one about guitars, for example, is obviously >>>> forty >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> or fifty years years out of date. Try googling: catholic mass >>>>> guitar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (no quotes). Apparently the current pope Benedict doesn't like >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> guitars. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>>>> E' nata >>>>>>>> indoona: chiama, videochiama e messaggia Gratis. Scarica >>>>>>>> indoona per >>>>>>>> iPhone, Android e PC: [4]http://www.indoona.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> References >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. http://www.giovaninsede/ >>>>>>>> 2. file://localhost/mc/compose? >>>>>>>> to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com >>>>>>>> 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute- >>>>>>>> admin/index.html >>>>>>>> 4. http://www.indoona.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> E' nata indoona: chiama, videochiama e messaggia Gratis. Scarica >>>>>>>> indoona per iPhone, Android e PC: http://www.indoona.com/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Edward Martin >>>>>>> 2817 East 2nd Street >>>>>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >>>>>>> e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com >>>>>>> voice: (218) 728-1202 >>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name >>>>>>> http://www.myspace.com/edslute >>>>>>> http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>>> Version: 9.0.927 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4271 - Release Date: >>>>> 03/14/12 >>>>>> 12:34:00 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>> >>> >>> > > > --
