Dear Mark: Thanks for your considerate response. Of course we are aiming for the same thing from different directions: The thought occurs to me that, in Europe, there probably is a plentiful supply of choral groups dominating the early music scene with concerts of sacred polyphony, and Pantagruel likely provides a lively alternative with well-chosen themed concerts. Here in the US, it seems to be the other way round. While we are more than happy to indulge in some lowdown funky music (at least I am), there are several groups here filling the secular early music niche. Funny that. As for the 'TV' reference, we thought you were showing your erudition by referencing the Latin, tempus veritas. Best, RA > Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:58:52 +0100 > To: praelu...@hotmail.com > CC: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: l...@pantagruel.de > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules correction! > > Dear Ron, > > Hmmm, just seen that my mail included a bit that I wanted to discard and did not finish - "This may sound cynical, but TV" > > That we both feel that our world-views are underrepresented, is somewhat amusing and in the end on the grand scale of things EM anyway plays so small a role in the 21st century culture that it is not really worth bickering about :) > > All the best > Mark > > On Mar 16, 2012, at 12:43 AM, Mark Wheeler wrote: > > > I actually feel quite the opposite, that polyphonic religious music is over emphasized in our view of 16th century music. Whole secular repertoires such as the Villotta have been ignored and also misrepresented, largely because they do not fit into the western classical music metanarrative. > > > > Even as early as the first musical prints of Petrucci and Antico it was actually secular songs that outsold Latin Church Music. The church music was maybe viewed as more prestigious, in thatyou could get some rich guy to cough up some money to subsidize it. But what people were actually performing and listening to was what our good old friend Taruskin describes as "humble vernacular songs", almost certainly including the guy who got his name on the front of the motets edition. This may sound cynical, but TV > > > > I am sure that if you added up all the concerts of renaissance church music and those of renaissance secular music in all major early music festivals last year, you would find that the religious is not so badly represented after all. > > > > Also the christian worldview is one that is familiar to most western Europeans today, both to those who believe in it or not. But the number of thinkers in the renaissance that diverged from the orthodox christian worldview, even to the region of atheism are not so well known. > > > > All the best > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 15, 2012, at 11:50 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: > > > >> No problem with the good music, which is obviously up to your usual standard of playing. I do feel, as Monica pointed out earlier, that today we seem to have a collective need to discount the role of the sacred music context of the 16th century by projecting our modern sensibilities backward in time. Why? Why not simply accept that religion played a significant and daily role in nearly everyone's life at the time? (That is, of course in the European context.) > >> > >> This is a difficult thing to prove, but I am nearly certain that ANY musician of the age and at the time was first trained to sing utilitarian sacred music. If he showed promise, he was given the opportunity to develop skill on an instrument as a useful addition to the task of singing for daily mass and devotionals. In fact, given the surviving biographical information on most known composers and noteworthy musicians from the time, it would be very difficult to disprove this premise. > >> > >> That is not to say that we have to judge the importance or quality of every simple dance tune against polyphonic masses and motets from the time. It is simply good interpretive practice to attempt to grasp the context of music from a time and place. Musicians of the 16th century lived at a time when the sacred and the secular were better integrated. Why deny this? It's not as though we have to duplicate every aspect of 16th century life in order to play the music. I, for one, can do without the body lice, lack of sanitation, rampant disease and absence of opportunity for upward mobility. That doesn't mean I deny those conditions existed. > >> > >> RA > >> > >>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:17:21 +0100 > >>> To: praelu...@hotmail.com > >>> CC: magg...@sonic.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >>> From: l...@pantagruel.de > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for church attendance > >>> > >>> I actually often get the feeling that the secular elements of renaissance culture are rather underplayed in EM today. And so to get back to a more Apollyon muse here is a bit of Holborne and Rabelais's Abbey of Thelema. > >>> > >>> http://youtu.be/tteepyzRPrE > >>> > >>> All the best > >>> Mark > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 15, 2012, at 1:31 PM, Ron Andrico wrote: > >>> > >>>> Just an additional point. If you are wondering what this topic has to > >>>> do with the focus of this discussion list, it has everything to do with > >>>> the lute. It's a difficult proposition but imagine what lute music > >>>> from the 16th century would sound like if it originated from a > >>>> completely secular, even atheistic context. > >>>> RA > >>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:22:47 +0000 > >>>>> To: magg...@sonic.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >>>>> From: praelu...@hotmail.com > >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for church attendance > >>>>> > >>>>> Very good point by you, Gary. The Church, for all its faults, was and > >>>>> is a gathering place, and music was and is a powerful influence that > >>>>> can be used to enhance religious experience. Today, we don't seem to > >>>>> like situations that require actual 'face time' and it's so much > >>>> easier > >>>>> to communicate via the internet. I personally avoid Facebook (which I > >>>>> call MyFace, since no one seems to give a hoot about what anyone else > >>>>> has to say) with its utter lack of the observable indicators and > >>>>> authentic results of real human interaction. But Donna says, rightly > >>>>> so, we must be visible there. > >>>>> In my opinion, sharing a video or sound clip on Facebook is not the > >>>>> same thing as experiencing the collective focus of a gathering of > >>>>> people moved to worship by the power of a Mass by Josquin or Byrd. > >>>>> RA > >>>>>> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 04:19:43 -0700 > >>>>>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >>>>>> From: magg...@sonic.net > >>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Obviously you were not the demographic they were looking for, Ed. I > >>>>> think > >>>>>> what happened was a move away from a contemplative approach to > >>>>> religiousity > >>>>>> to a social/interactive approach. Maybe we could trace the origins > >>>> of > >>>>>> "Facebook" to the abandoning of the Latin Mass. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Gary > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>> From: "Edward Martin" <e...@gamutstrings.com> > >>>>>> To: <do...@tiscali.it>; <chriswi...@yahoo.com>; > >>>>> <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> > >>>>>> Cc: <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 6:36 AM > >>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Interesting concept. Yes, many churches have abandoned their old > >>>>>>> beautiful music, in favor of this guitar strumming, poorly > >>>>> composed, > >>>>>>> boring music. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This trend of abandoning art music, in favor of mediocrity with > >>>> the > >>>>>>> idea that it appeals to the masses, keeps me away. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ed > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> At 07:37 AM 3/14/2012, do...@tiscali.it wrote: > >>>>>>>> Chris, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> the concept is so well expressed.. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donatella > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ----Messaggio > >>>>>>>> originale---- > >>>>>>>> Da: chriswi...@yahoo.com > >>>>>>>> Data: 14/03/2012 13.29 > >>>>>>>> A: > >>>>>>>> <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>, "do...@tiscali.it"<do...@tiscali.it> > >>>>>>>> Cc: > >>>>>>>> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > >>>>>>>> Ogg: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donatella, > >>>>>>>> In America the change in music came much earlier, in > >>>>>>>> many places > >>>>>>>> preceding the Second Vatican Council. The Catholic > >>>>>>>> Church in America > >>>>>>>> took great pride in dissociating itself from "old > >>>>>>>> world ways" by > >>>>>>>> rejecting chant and polyphony. In its place, they > >>>>>>>> replaced these > >>>>>>>> traditions with very poor pseudo-folk music. I > >>>>>>>> suppose this was done in > >>>>>>>> order to provide "hip" music to attract > >>>>>>>> young people, under the > >>>>>>>> assumption that no one under 30 can stand > >>>>>>>> still long enough to > >>>>>>>> appreciate beauty. Unfortunately, the resultant > >>>>>>>> music was some hideous > >>>>>>>> hybrid that succeeded in being neither > >>>>>>>> appropriately sacred nor in any > >>>>>>>> way interesting to young people. At > >>>>>>>> any rate, young people stayed away > >>>>>>>> in droves, largely because of > >>>>>>>> this smaltzy stuff. Still, these very > >>>>>>>> same wannabe hippy songs - now > >>>>>>>> approaching 50 years old - and the > >>>>>>>> stated need to use them to > >>>>>>>> attract young people are repeated ad > >>>>>>>> nauseum. > >>>>>>>> One of the > >>>>>>>> great unwritten-about artistic travesties of the 20th > >>>>>>>> century is the > >>>>>>>> fact that this entire repertoire, which replaced a > >>>>>>>> still-living > >>>>>>>> century's old tradition, was not called for by any Church > >>>>>>>> decree, > >>>>>>>> but was largely engineered by the publishing company Oregan > >>>>>>>> Catholic > >>>>>>>> Press. If you go to practically any church in the country you > >>>>>>>> will > >>>>>>>> find the same poor quality songs from the 1960's and 1970's in > >>>> the > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> hymnals. This is not due to regulation, but rather a publishing > >>>>> deal. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Chris > >>>>>>>> Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. > >>>>>>>> Music Faculty > >>>>>>>> Nazareth > >>>>>>>> College, Rochester, NY > >>>>>>>> State University of New York at Geneseo > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer > >>>>>>>> www.christopherwilke.com > >>>>>>>> --- On > >>>>>>>> Wed, 3/14/12, do...@tiscali.it <do...@tiscali.it> wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> From: > >>>>>>>> do...@tiscali.it <do...@tiscali.it> > >>>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules > >>>>>>>> for jazz performers > >>>>>>>> To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com > >>>>>>>> Cc: lute@cs. > >>>>>>>> dartmouth.edu > >>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, March 14, 2012, 3:49 AM > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>> googled, in Italian, and this came out > >>>> [1]http://www.giovaninsede. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> it/animazione-liturgica.php , there are no notes as music is not > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> thaught in the same way as abroad, so average people can > >>>> sometimes > >>>>> read > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> chords ( sigh) and that is. You can get an idea. I used to go to > >>>>>>>> Mass > >>>>>>>> as a child, and songs which were sung were possibly ancient and > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> complex, often in Latin, then when the previous Pope came, he > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> destroyed that part, I guess to make audience ( sad to say, but > >>>>> that > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> is), so that songs became the poorest, musically speaking, you > >>>> can > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> imagine, accompanied by guitar, organ was heard now and then. It > >>>>> was > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> part of a "renovation" of which I can give an example: in the > >>>>> village > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> where I go on holiday , there is a Chapel with a Renaissance > >>>>>>>> painting. > >>>>>>>> It needed restoring, but it was visible. Well , it was > >>>>>>>> covered with a > >>>>>>>> representation of a black Madonna ( I can't think of > >>>>>>>> the proper name > >>>>>>>> right now) which is not even of any artistic value. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To me listening to > >>>>>>>> the Mass became a real suffering, this is not > >>>>>>>> the main reason why I > >>>>>>>> quit, but I did. > >>>>>>>> Lute and theorbo are > >>>>>>>> allowed, I have been asked > >>>>>>>> several times to play a piece during the > >>>>>>>> mass ( but I have not done it > >>>>>>>> up to now) > >>>>>>>> Donatella > >>>>>>>> ---- > >>>>>>>> Messaggio originale---- > >>>>>>>> Da: > >>>>>>>> [2]howardpos...@ca.rr.com > >>>>>>>> Data: > >>>>>>>> 14/03/2012 1.06 > >>>>>>>> A: "Lute Net"<lute@cs. > >>>>>>>> dartmouth.edu> > >>>>>>>> Ogg: > >>>>>>>> [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers > >>>>>>>> On Mar > >>>>>>>> 13, 2012, at 4: > >>>>>>>> 01 PM, Tony wrote: > >>>>>>>>> The Church's doctrine on > >>>>>>>> liturgical music > >>>>>>>> can be summarized in seven > >>>>>>>>> points .... > >>>>>>>> Doubtless > >>>>>>>> there are > >>>>>>>> listers who know more about this than I do, but this list > >>>>>>>> seems like > >>>>>>>> a compilation of things that have been said on the subject > >>>>>>>> over the > >>>>>>>> centuries, rather than functioning doctrine. A lot of it is > >>>>>>>> pre- > >>>>>>>> Vatican II. The one about guitars, for example, is obviously > >>>> forty > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> or fifty years years out of date. Try googling: catholic mass > >>>>> guitar > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> (no quotes). Apparently the current pope Benedict doesn't like > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> guitars. > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>>>>>>> E' nata > >>>>>>>> indoona: chiama, videochiama e messaggia Gratis. Scarica > >>>>>>>> indoona per > >>>>>>>> iPhone, Android e PC: [4]http://www.indoona.com/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> References > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1. http://www.giovaninsede/ > >>>>>>>> 2. file://localhost/mc/compose? > >>>>>>>> to=howardpos...@ca.rr.com > >>>>>>>> 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute- > >>>>>>>> admin/index.html > >>>>>>>> 4. http://www.indoona.com/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> E' nata indoona: chiama, videochiama e messaggia Gratis. Scarica > >>>>>>>> indoona per iPhone, Android e PC: http://www.indoona.com/ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Edward Martin > >>>>>>> 2817 East 2nd Street > >>>>>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > >>>>>>> e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com > >>>>>>> voice: (218) 728-1202 > >>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name > >>>>>>> http://www.myspace.com/edslute > >>>>>>> http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> --------- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>>>>> Version: 9.0.927 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/4271 - Release Date: > >>>>> 03/14/12 > >>>>>> 12:34:00 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > -- > > >
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